Why did Mary specifically mention Russia in Fatima?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Polak
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Am I missing something from my own post?
Where did I wrote this?

This is what I wrote
It is worthy of belief because of constat de supernaturalitate and it is not necessary of belief in any case.
 
Last edited:
He did request Pope Francis and was refused. There is a video on the
internet to that effect . It was posted a couple of years ago on a different thread .
I believe Russia was chosen by God similar to when the Prophet Samuel came to Jesse, the father of David on a mission to consecrate David as king. Christianity is very deep in the Russian psyche. Seventy years under the tyranny of Communism failed to wipe it out. Also the Romanovs were a deeply Christian family and many Russians regard Tsar Nicholas as a saint.
 
Only Church has right to officially interpret Fatima messages (and every other private revelation).
I don’t think this is the case, given that no private revelation has ever been declared to be true by the church (merely ‘worthy of belief’). How does the church authoritatively interpret something it hasn’t even authoritatively declared to be true to begin with?
Sister Lucia also said that she is only carrying message and nothing more, she cannot interpret it officially. But she can have her thoughts about events, that’s normal.
Speculations are only speculations outside official statement.

If my memories are right I read that in book Fatima - Prophecies of tragedy or hope? By Antonio A. Borelli.

Although Sister Lucia continued to have apparitions even after Francis and Jacinta died those messages do not contradict any previous message and do not change any of 3 secrets.
I suggest you that book for better understanding of Fatima. It has many details and explanations.
I’m not really sure how this relates to my question.
Since Fatima messages have supernatural character (God is source of them) it is specific and leaves such a clear impression that the testimony of most visionaries never changes. I cannot quote now because it is from book.
It is not very likely that the statements will change after some time although it is possible.
Worthy of belief is merely the statement that the local bishop, having investigated the matter, does not believe it contradicts Catholic faith or morals and that it appears to have a supernatural component. It is not a definite statement it is in fact supernatural or from God.

In any event, my concern was less about accounts “changing” insofar as contradicting their previous attestations and more in regards to things that were added to them that were not originally given. For example, an earlier link in this thread (an Orthodox giving an evaluation of Fatima) said that the declarations regarding the consecration of Russia did not seem to be in the original accounts, and were only mentioned in Lucia’s later writings. Is that true? I don’t know. That’s why I wanted resources on what stuff was mentioned in the original accounts and what stuff was only mentioned in the decades-later writings by Lucia that couldn’t be corroborated by the others due to them being dead. Or, absent that convenience, a resource that only gave the information of the accounts at the time, and not any of the Lucia-exclusive elaborations later.
 
I don’t think this is the case, given that no private revelation has ever been declared to be true by the church (merely ‘worthy of belief’).
What about st. Faustina and apparitions of Jesus (Divine Mercy devotion), apparitions to st. Margaret Mary Alacoque (Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion)?

It cannot be given “worthy of belief” if it isn’t supernatural.
Approved
The supernatural chracter of the apparition is declared worthy of belief (“Constat de supernaturalitate”) and contains nothing that is contrary to faith and morals. But belief in the apparition (even the true one) is not necessary for salvation.
Also, apparitions can have 3 sources:
-human (natural)
-God (supernatural)
-Satan and fallen angels (extranatural)
For example, an earlier link in this thread (an Orthodox giving an evaluation of Fatima) said that the declarations regarding the consecration of Russia did not seem to be in the original accounts, and were only mentioned in Lucia’s later writings. Is that true? I don’t know. That’s why I wanted resources on what stuff was mentioned in the original accounts and what stuff was only mentioned in the decades-later writings by Lucia that couldn’t be corroborated by the others due to them being dead
Sorry cannot help since I don’t know any source that have things you are looking for in one book. I thought that official document with messages would be good for start. Also, book I linked has many informations and details.
 
40.png
JSRG:
I don’t think this is the case, given that no private revelation has ever been declared to be true by the church (merely ‘worthy of belief’).
What about st. Faustina and apparitions of Jesus (Divine Mercy devotion), apparitions to st. Margaret Mary Alacoque (Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion)?
Exactly the same as Fatima. They were declared worthy of belief. They were not declared true. And in the case of the devotions, an approved devotion does not require any supernatural revealing of it.
It cannot be given “worthy of belief” if it isn’t supernatural.
Approved
The supernatural chracter of the apparition is declared worthy of belief (“Constat de supernaturalitate”) and contains nothing that is contrary to faith and morals. But belief in the apparition (even the true one) is not necessary for salvation.
It says that the supernatural character is worthy of belief. But “worthy of belief” is again not the same thing as “true.” So it is not a declaration it is supernatural.
 
1918-1921 - Ukraine declares independence, has ~ 3 years of freedom, Lenin orders the Soviet Army to invade Ukraine and Ukraine falls to the Soviets.
 
In the Fatima apparitions Mary told the children about Russia potentially spreading her errors throughout the world. Many believe she (Russia) is doing that now.

I just wondered why Mary would mentioned Russia specifically, a big communist power, and not a different communist power like China? Why not give a few countries as examples? Some of the things going on in China more recently are arguably worse than what is going on in Russia.

It’s easy to see how many patriotic Russians would look at this message from Mary as anti-Russian political propaganda from the Catholic Church.

To clarify, I don’t think that’s the case and I believe what happened in Fatima and what Mary said, but to pick one specific communist atheist country in the world, when there are others, and as far as big powerful countries go, might seem unusual to some, and is likely to be refuted by many Russians as Russophobic propaganda.
Perhaps the better question to ask is

Why Mary speaks about politics in her apparitions? She did not seem very much involved in any political matters in her live time on earth. The discontinuity of personalities of two different characters seems like they are not Mother Mary the mother of Jesus,who was a simple woman who do not like to ask others to praise her, and definitely do not like to talk about politics.
 
Last edited:
Why Mary speaks about politics in her apparitions?
Communism (socialism, and other “-isms”) is anti-catholic (anti-God) and anti-human system… It’s not so much about politics but human souls which are precious to God.
 
Last edited:
But saving souls cannot be done through opposing those -isms.

Isn’t it rather distracting from the main focus which is salvation of souls, the work of Jesus Christ, her own son?
 
But saving souls cannot be done through opposing those -isms.

Isn’t it rather distracting from the main focus which is salvation of souls, the work of Jesus Christ, her own son?
Certainly since Pope Leo 13, the popes have reminded us of the need to bring gospel values to the social order. A good society is one in which it is easier to be good. The fact that Communism, and now increasingly Socialism, have embraced atheism make it relevant to salvation.
 
Hello, I did mention that the original video posted here was apx two years ago and ater searching for that one on the internet was unsuccessul I found a few other videos
on the same topic. Theres one there by F r. Paul Kramer who is sede vacantist and not a fan of our current Pope. But he does speak about Putin’s request. Theres another interesting website discussing a potential joint request by Presidents Putin and Trump to Pope Francis which they hope may take place sometime soon…
Thirdly theres a third video by the late Fr. Gabriel Amorth in which he states that the Consecration of Russia has not yet been done. I’ll see if theres any other comments about Putin’s request to the Pope ater the weekend. Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful at present
 
But saving souls cannot be done through opposing those -isms.

Isn’t it rather distracting from the main focus which is salvation of souls, the work of Jesus Christ, her own son?
Any - ism that excludes God is dead from start.
All - isms have spiritual background. This world is phisycal and spiritual at the same time.
Isn’t it rather distracting from the main focus which is salvation of souls, the work of Jesus Christ, her own son?
How?
It is not. Mary cannot do anything opposed to God’s will. Mary’s only focus is salvation of souls.
Mary cannot appear to someone if that isn’t God’s will.
But we are not obliged to believe that she appeared in Fatima or anywhere else. So, if you think that it has nothing worth of your belief then don’t believe and that is completely fine. You are not less Catholic than someone who believes.

Be at peace!
 
Last edited:
Theres one there by F r. Paul Kramer who is sede vacantist and not a fan of our current Pope. But he does speak about Putin’s request. Theres another interesting website discussing a potential joint request by Presidents Putin and Trump to Pope Francis which they hope may take place sometime soon…
Thirdly theres a third video by the late Fr. Gabriel Amorth in which he states that the Consecration of Russia has not yet been done. I’ll see if theres any other comments about Putin’s request to the Pope ater the weekend. Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful at present
I have not watched those Pope videos. I am however more interested to the answer why mother Mary apparitions speak about politics while Jesus Mother was one who had never involved in politics at all & the striking difference of two personalities when living on earth & in those apparitions.
 
Last edited:
But we are not obliged to believe that she appeared in Fatima or anywhere else. So, if you think that it has nothing worth of your belief then don’t believe and that is completely fine. You are not less Catholic than someone who believes.
Thankyou for saying this.
 
why mother Mary apparitions speak about politics while Jesus Mother was one who had never involved in politics at all & the striking difference of two personalities when living on earth & in those apparitions.
Luke 1:48 - 54.

Confer also reference in the Book of Revelations, wherein she is aware of, in some way participant in, the larger cosmic contest. Granted some of this is symbolic spiritual, but could also have political ramifications.
 
Last edited:
Mary in heaven where she now resides is the Queen of Heaven and Earth.
Her role in these latter days is the ushering in of the reign of her son who is the King. She addresses what is relevant to all of us the salvation of souls.
 
I believe the Consecration was valid the one made in 1984. It is certain that after the consecration the forces of Communism collapsed within a short time (5 to 6 years). One will need to be blind not to see this. The collapse of communism in Russia and Eastern Europe will mean Christianity can now flourish in those countries. Pope John Paul II had called communism a necessary evil to avert a worse evil. He knew communism will eventually collapse because it was a human endeavor (without God). It would take time for it to fall but with Mary’s intervention in requesting prayers from the Catholic world the Lord was able to complete this changeover in quicker fashion. Quite possibly a nuclear war will been the result had no intervention occurred. What needs to be done now with the Fatima message is to carry it to other countries, more specifically to the Western democratic countries. Another aspect from Fatima is this. We are now in a position when the Orthodox and Catholic Churches will see eye to eye. Fatima had changed this when the first time in history the Catholic Church was called upon to pray for a Eastern Orthodox nation. What this means is the beginning of the restoration of East and West which Jesus and Mary so long for which we need to work for.
 
Nothing would lay it to rest for the conspiracy theorists. They would just say the test was faked as part of the cover-up.
 
Mary’s warning was aimed at the specific times. For devout Christians in Russia during the Soviet years, Mary’s warning was spot on.
 
I’d reckon that Mary saw Russia in particular as losing so many that would have believed in her Son. Like there were hundreds of thousands, at least in the generation coming, lost to Him, so quickly after the Soviets took power. It must have been heartbreaking for her to see a society rather suddenly have little chance to follow Jesus.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top