Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?: An Investigation

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Dear Fellow CAFers,

We finally got to the end of the “Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?” thread, and we never came up with a “yes” answer that held up to scrutiny.

However, we ran out the post-limit before we had time to investigate the case of the Pharisees with any depth, the thread ended with the unanswered question:

Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?

Of course, the short, easy answer is “we don’t know”, because we do not. However, using the gift of Understanding we can exhaust all of the possibilities, (starting with the simplest ones of course.). This is not an exercise in futility; we can indeed exhaust all of the possibilities!

The basic, underlying question still remains: Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God? I am still waiting for an example, and have yet to find one that holds up to scrutiny.

Thanks, up front, for your (name removed by moderator)ut! 🙂
 
OneSheep said:
Dear Fellow CAFers,

We finally got to the end of the “Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?” thread, and we never came up with a “yes” answer that held up to scrutiny.

However, we ran out the post-limit before we had time to investigate the case of the Pharisees with any depth, the thread ended with the unanswered question:

Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?

Of course, the short, easy answer is “we don’t know”, because we do not. However, using the gift of Understanding we can exhaust all of the possibilities, (starting with the simplest ones of course.). This is not an exercise in futility; we can indeed exhaust all of the possibilities!

The basic, underlying question still remains: Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God? I am still waiting for an example, and have yet to find one that holds up to scrutiny.

Thanks, up front, for your (name removed by moderator)ut! 🙂
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First of all, some of the Pharisees did believe that Jesus was the Messiah as well as the Son of G-d. Second, those who rejected Him probably did so because His claim to divinity was contrary to what the Jews were taught about the uniqueness and oneness of G-d. IOW, the notion of a binatarian G-d consisting of a Father and Son (before the Trinitarian G-d was realized by the Church) was unknown to the nature of G-d as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures and therefore regarded as idolatrous and blasphemous. Moreover, the idea that G-d could be incarnated in the form of a human was considered impossible since it too ran contrary to the spiritual essence of G-d according to the Law. Any human, therefore, who claimed to be G-d must be a false prophet. The Jews had been warned about false prophecy by Moses in the book of Deuteronomy and that miracles were not to be used as a proof of divinity. For these Pharisees, Jesus was no doubt regarded as a test of their love and devotion to the G-d of their forefathers.
 
OneSheep said:
Dear Fellow CAFers,

We finally got to the end of the “Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?” thread, and we never came up with a “yes” answer that held up to scrutiny.

However, we ran out the post-limit before we had time to investigate the case of the Pharisees with any depth, the thread ended with the unanswered question:

Why did the Pharisees not humble themselves before Christ?

Of course, the short, easy answer is “we don’t know”, because we do not. However, using the gift of Understanding we can exhaust all of the possibilities, (starting with the simplest ones of course.). This is not an exercise in futility; we can indeed exhaust all of the possibilities!

The basic, underlying question still remains: Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God? I am still waiting for an example, and have yet to find one that holds up to scrutiny.

Thanks, up front, for your (name removed by moderator)ut! 🙂
Click to expand...
Sorry to deviate a little, however I had to break off a friendship with someone because he knowingly and willingly rejected God. I guess I am not understanding the question properly.
 
The hardest to convince of a divine arrival will be the upper echelons of the dominant religion (pharisees, bishops, whatever…) leaders will be the hardest to convince that their view of the proper order of things, and when/who will arrive to save us all will show up.

I imagine the second coming will be plagued by the same problems. And the real problem will be everyone with an opinion will think they are right and doing God’s work!

Jesus didn’t meet the pharisees rubric for who the messiah would be.
 
Crusaderbear said:
The hardest to convince of a divine arrival will be the upper echelons of the dominant religion (pharisees, bishops, whatever…) leaders will be the hardest to convince that their view of the proper order of things, and when/who will arrive to save us all will show up.

I imagine the second coming will be plagued by the same problems. And the real problem will be everyone with an opinion will think they are right and doing God’s work!

Jesus didn’t meet the pharisees rubric for who the messiah would be.
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Indeed He did not, and, apart from Jesus’ claim of divinity, was probably the idea He espoused that we need to be “saved” from hell by the Messiah in the first place. Judaism is not and never was a religion based on the need for salvation. Not that the Pharisees did not believe in an afterlife: it was just that the focus of the religion was on earthly salvation by doing G-d’s will, which included among many other things personal atonement for sins. The Messiah was to issue in a period of intensified studying of the Law on earth, not a heavenly salvation.
 
meltzerboy said:
First of all, some of the Pharisees did believe that Jesus was the Messiah as well as the Son of G-d. Second, those who rejected Him probably did so because His claim to divinity was contrary to what the Jews were taught about the uniqueness and oneness of G-d. IOW, the notion of a binatarian G-d consisting of a Father and Son (before the Trinitarian G-d was realized by the Church) was unknown to the nature of G-d as depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures and therefore regarded as idolatrous and blasphemous. Moreover, the idea that G-d could be incarnated in the form of a human was considered impossible since it too ran contrary to the spiritual essence of G-d according to the Law. Any human, therefore, who claimed to be G-d must be a false prophet. The Jews had been warned about false prophecy by Moses in the book of Deuteronomy and that miracles were not to be used as a proof of divinity. For these Pharisees, Jesus was no doubt regarded as a test of their love and devotion to the G-d of their forefathers.
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👍👍
 
Crusaderbear said:
The hardest to convince of a divine arrival will be the upper echelons of the dominant religion (pharisees, bishops, whatever…) leaders will be the hardest to convince that their view of the proper order of things, and when/who will arrive to save us all will show up.

I imagine the second coming will be plagued by the same problems. And the real problem will be everyone with an opinion will think they are right and doing God’s work!

Jesus didn’t meet the pharisees rubric for who the messiah would be.
Click to expand...
According to scripture , when Christ comes again, He will be coming in glory on clouds, accompanied by angels. We will also have had the tribulation and the days of darkness prior to this. All nations will recognise Him when He comes again.

The issue (in my opinion) will not be, “Will you now recognise Christ for who He is and accept Him as your Lord and Saviour?”, we have already been given that chance, the issue will be (in my opinion) “Have you lived your life according to His commandments?”
 
The reason that they rejected Jesus was because he pointed out their sins. That is what Jesus himself said in John. Also, they were scared of Jesus and what the Romans might do to them. Ironically they put Jesus to death wanting to quelsh this threat, and in the end as Jesus predicted the Romans came and destroyed the city in 70 ad anyways, because as Jesus said, they did not recognize the time of their visitation. In other words they did not recognize who Jesus was. Those who rejected Jesus were doing their own will, not God’s. Jesus said so much when he said the one who does God’s work will know that what he says is true.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Sorry to deviate a little, however I had to break off a friendship with someone because he knowingly and willingly rejected God. I guess I am not understanding the question properly.
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Hi, and welcome!

So, you found an example of someone knowingly and willingly rejecting God?
 
Because the Pharisees were full of pride and felt that they had a lot to lose. They held a lot of power among the people, and so they were unwilling to submit to another Jew claiming to have authority over them. Jesus was a threat to their power, to the control they held over others.

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees…
 
Nigel7 said:
Because the Pharisees were full of pride and felt that they had a lot to lose. They held a lot of power among the people, and so they were unwilling to submit to another Jew claiming to have authority over them. Jesus was a threat to their power, to the control they held over others.

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees…
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Right. I was just going to say that. The lowly will be exalted and the high and mighty will be brought low.
 
Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah according to the Pharisees therefore why would they humble themselves?

I look at it this way, they were a persecuted minority and their religious leaders kept them together all through their history, their Priests played a vital and MASSIVE role in ensuring their historical culture, religion and society stayed in tact. They had to be suspicious of this man claiming to be the Messiah. I’m sure they investigated him when they saw Jews following him and the crowds of thousands listening to him speak, they would have checked his lineage, his family, the Rabbis at his Temple, his teachings, his miracles etc

No, I don’t agree that it was all about power, a lot of it had to do with protecting their flock (rightly or wrongly) and ensuring they did not fall prey to false Messiahs.

I’m sure a few did wonder though when the curtain in the Temple tore as Jesus took his last breath.
 
OneSheep said:
Hi, and welcome!

So, you found an example of someone knowingly and willingly rejecting God?
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Hello and thank you, One Sheep.

I wasn’t around for the other discussion, so I don’t know if I’m interpreting things correctly. I may not be. However, I do know someone who knows about God, he’s from the UK, he’s known about God all his life. However, he says he hates God and wants nothing to do with him or any religion. He is not an atheist. Of course, I cannot see into his heart, but this is what he says, and this is how he acts. He will not set foot into a church or say a prayer or read anything even vaguely religious.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Hello and thank you, One Sheep.

I wasn’t around for the other discussion, so I don’t know if I’m interpreting things correctly. I may not be. However, I do know someone who knows about God, he’s from the UK, he’s known about God all his life. However, he says he hates God and wants nothing to do with him or any religion. He is not an atheist. Of course, I cannot see into his heart, but this is what he says, and this is how he acts. He will not set foot into a church or say a prayer or read anything even vaguely religious.
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Hi Lily,

Does it sound to you like he is blaming God for something that happened or if happening? Is he feeling resentful? Yes, we can’t know his heart, but sometimes when we are trying to understand, we guess, right?

Thanks.
 
Was it the Sadducees who deny resurrection? Maybe that was too much faith for them to handle. I can’t remember that Bible verse though, should though 😦 :mad:
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah according to the Pharisees therefore why would they humble themselves?

I look at it this way, they were a persecuted minority and their religious leaders kept them together all through their history, their Priests played a vital and MASSIVE role in ensuring their historical culture, religion and society stayed in tact. They had to be suspicious of this man claiming to be the Messiah. I’m sure they investigated him when they saw Jews following him and the crowds of thousands listening to him speak, they would have checked his lineage, his family, the Rabbis at his Temple, his teachings, his miracles etc

No, I don’t agree that it was all about power, a lot of it had to do with protecting their flock (rightly or wrongly) and ensuring they did not fall prey to false Messiahs.

I’m sure a few did wonder though when the curtain in the Temple tore as Jesus took his last breath.
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You may be right,but I think the pharisees were also guilty of dishonesty and using the law of Moses to suit their personal interests.Jesus pointed out to them time and again the darkness in their hearts and the shame of being exposed by Jesus pushed them to eliminate him.
 
OneSheep said:
Hi Lily,

Does it sound to you like he is blaming God for something that happened or if happening? Is he feeling resentful? Yes, we can’t know his heart, but sometimes when we are trying to understand, we guess, right?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
No, it just seems like he hates God. In fact, he says he does. He has said he rejects God and all religion and wants nothing to do with them.The rest of his family is not super-religious, and none hates God. He hates God because he allows sin and pain in the world, although it’s been explained to him many times by many people that man is the author of sin, not God. He understands that intellectually, but won’t accept it. He does not have an outwardly “bad” life, either, i.e. his family is doing well and he’s not struggling with illness, money issues, etc.
 
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