Why did you choose Christianity over Islam?

[ProdglArchitect]

Exodus 21:7-8 & Numbers 31:18 is about slaves, not marriage. The other two were about marriage.

Exodus is about selling into slavery,not sexual use. Numbers is, likewise, about taking women captive, not using them sexually. I’ve no doubt it happened, but that’s not explicit permission.

My issue is primarily with the use of slaves for sex. Again, that you cannot understand these differences is frightening.

LOL, I was mocking you. Because you said that in the other thread.

I am aware you were being problematic; you’re not the only one who reads these things so it felt important to clarify so no one else will be misguided by your nonsense.

Also, I again encourage you to avoid active mockery and derision, as they will get you banned.

The case of the Levite proves it was permitted, since if it was adultery, he would’ve been stoned to death

Permitted by the people, not by God. Again, it is a chronicle of their failings as much as their successes.

So sins were permitted according to God’s law. Your moral absolutism is completely thrown out of the window.

No, they were not permitted in that they took on a morally positive quality. They were still sins. God just didn’t condemn for them on account of the state of the culture and where they were on their walk with Him.

I have no issue with applying that same logic to Mohammad and Islam, so long as you’re willing to admit that they are sins, and therefore Mohammad cannot be a perfect person.

You were the one who originally used the OT laws as a point against Muslims & the Prophet Muhammad (S), but now you’ve been downplaying it at every turn.

I am not downplaying anything. My contention is that Mohammad was not a perfect man because he engaged in sinful activity. I also only referenced the Ten Commandments which are the moral code as outlined by God himself. You’re the one who brought in the cultural laws, which are the main thing I’ve been having to try to explain to you repeatedly.

Rabbinic commentators maintain that David did not commit adultery or murder, what David did was actually lawful according to the Torah. I suggest you look it up.

Yeah, they can try to justify it as much as they want. God made it quite clear that David had committed a grievous sin, the punishment for which was the death of David’s child.

As evidenced by our discussion, people can be as obtuse as they want and ignore then obvious facts set before them. That there are rabbis who deny David’s sin isn’t even remotely surprising.

 

[JSAD]

Thanks for iterating, but I really do not see any mention of a miracle i.e. something supernaturally happening to influence the earthly physical realm, like the multiplication of loaves.

 

[jochoa]

Trinity… You say Father is God and we do too. You say Son is God but we say Son is from God by a miraculous way. You say Holy Spirit is God but we say Holy Spirit is an angel of God. There are many connections between us. As God said in Qur’an “Come to a word equal between us and you: That God is one!”

Since we agree that God is one, let’s dig deeper to unveal the Truth.
Why do you say, God says, “God is one?” In other words, why do you say God makes the effort to declare that God is one? It is unnecessary to share, “I am one,” unless there is a deeper point.

I say God says, “God is one,” to share that though God is God, and the LORD God is God, and the LORD is God; the three are one. God is sharing that there is a plurality within the singularity, hence the Holy Trinity. The Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and the three are one God.

 

[mhmtas63]

Trinity… You say Father is God and we do too. You say Son is God but we say Son is from God by a miraculous way. You say Holy Spirit is God but we say Holy Spirit is an angel of God. There are many connections between us. As God said in Qur’an “Come to a word equal between us and you: That God is one!”

Such thoughts of Pagans and Hinduism and doctrines like Trinity make it very necessary to express very clearly that God is one. Just one nice of that we can/must call upon from one!

 

[jochoa]

Such thoughts of Pagans and Hinduism and doctrines like Trinity make it very necessary to express very clearly that God is one. Just one nice of that we can/must call upon from one!

“…the Word was God.” -John 1:1
“…Jesus Kalimatullah (word of God)…” -mhmtas63

Therefore, Jesus is God!

 

[Niblo]

“…Jesus Kalimatullah (word of God)…”

By way of clarification:

‘The angel said, “Mary, God gives you news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God. He will speak to people in his infancy and in his adulthood. He will be one of the righteous.” She said, “My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?” (The angel) said, ‘This is how God creates what He will: when He has ordained something, He says only, “Be” (‘kun’), and it is.’ (Al‘Imran: 45-47).

Yeshua (Radi Allahu ‘anhu) is indeed a word from Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla); and that word is ‘Be’; the command that brought Yeshua – and everything else – into being.

 

[jochoa]

Thank you for sharing that Niblo!

Yes, God creates through his word. Therefore, His word is not a creature, rather his Word is uncreated. Jesus is the only-"be"gotten (uncreated) Word of God, and through him all things were created! -Catholic Nicene Creed

Here is a quick video clip that is a good perspective to consider:

 

[mhmtas63]

Yes, God creates through his word. Therefore, His word is not a creature, rather his Word is uncreated.

Jesus was created! Jesus had a body and a soul. Beyond that? Just some conjectures.

 

[jochoa]

Jesus was created! Jesus had a body and a soul. Beyond that? Just some conjectures.

Although Jesus embraced a human nature, he is not created.

Now since you and I have yet to agree on anything further than God is one, God is the Creator of everything, Jesus is the Word of God, Mary is the Virgin mother of Jesus, and we both believe that each other has formed beliefs on incomplete information, what do you say the purpose for God creating everything is?

I say God created everything out of Love, out of freely sharing his goodness with others, or as the Catholic Church shares in her first teaching in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life.” -CCC#1

 

[mhmtas63]

Although Jesus embraced a human nature, he is not created.

Now since you and I have yet to agree on anything further than God is one, God is the Creator of everything, Jesus is the Word of God, Mary is the Virgin mother of Jesus, and we both believe that each other has formed beliefs on incomplete information, what do you say the purpose for God creating everything is?

I say God created everything out of Love, out of freely sharing his goodness with others, or as the Catholic Church shares in her first teaching in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life.” -CCC#1

Jesus had a body and a soul. He lived and acted just like a human. Jesus performed some miracles as some other prophets did. The claim Jesus being God is not in verses but through some strained interpretations. The assert that God assumed a humanly body conflict with eternity. God can feel and see and hear everything that a soul can do with a body. There is no need for incarnation. Jesus had a human soul. And if we assert that God assumed Jesus’s body that make Jesus to be a human and a God. A human cannot be God and God is not human. That is so clear. There is no need for very complex philosophical explanations.

Purpose for God creating everything? I do not know exactly and I think nobody can know. In a hadith it is said “I were a hidden treasure and I wished to be known”. God wished to be known. Love is one very important reason to create everything. God love His arts and through those arts God wished to be loved. Love is very powerful relation and union between everything and God. Humanbeing is the most important art of God. Notice! God is not part of creature and art of Himself.

Word of God is eternal as attribute of God. Jesus was conclusion of an order “be” as Niblo explained well.

 

[Niblo]

Here is a quick video clip that is a good perspective to consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggbIMPh-N1o

The speaker clearly believes that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is God. He does so (it seems):

One: Because Yeshua is mentioned 25 times in the Qur’an.

Adam is also mentioned 25 times, and so is the prophet Hūd. Lūṭ is mentioned 27 times, and so is Yūsuf ibn Ya‘qūb. Ibrāhīm is mentioned 69 times; Noah 43 times; and Moses a whopping 136 times! Are these also God?

Two: Because the Qur’an mentions Yeshua’s mother by name, but not any other woman (by name).

It what way does giving honour to the mother make the son divine?

Three: Because the Qur’an says that Mary was ‘born without original sin’.

The notion of original sin is alien to Islam. Mary was indeed conceived without this ‘sin’; but so is everyone else.

The speaker cites sūrah 50 (‘Qaf’ ), verse 20; claiming that it speaks of Mary going ‘to heaven with her physical body’. We are meant to believe that this is a reference to her assumption (as taught by the Church). Here is verse 20 (emphasised), in its setting and context:

‘The Trumpet will be sounded: ‘This is the Day (you were) warned of.’ Each person will arrive attended by an (angel) to drive him on and another to bear witness: ‘You paid no attention to this (Day); but today We have removed your veil and your sight is sharp.’ (verse 20-22).

You will note that verse 20 refers to a trumpet, and not to Mary. The setting is, of course, the Day of Judgement, when all – including the resurrected Mary – with be brought before Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) for judgement. I have no doubt, by the way , that Mary will not be among those chastised for paying no attention to that Day. She will be among the blessed.

The speaker claims that the assumption of Mary (again, as taught by the Church) is ‘written in holy Koran’. It is not. Nor is it mentioned in the aḥādīth.

The speaker references verses from sūrah ‘Al‘Imran’ that I mention in a previous post. I see no need to repeat my comments here.

Yeshua promises that he will ‘heal the blind and the leper, bring back the dead to life.’ However, he also states that he will do so ‘with God’s permission’ (verse 49).

Performing miracles (included raising the dead) is not a sign of personal divinity. Elijah raised the son of a widow (1 Kings 17:17-22); Elisha the son of a Shunammite women (2 Kings 4:32-35); a man was raised from the dead when his body touched Elisha’s bones (2 Kings 13:20,21); Peter raised Tabitha/Dorcas (Acts 9:36-41); and Paul raised Eutychus (Acts 20: 9,10).

 

[Niblo]

The speaker also mentions that Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) is referred to as the ‘Holy Spirit’. He is not.

Consider this:

‘People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about Allāh except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of Allāh, His word (‘wakalimatuhu’), directed to Mary, a spirit (‘warūḥun’) from Him. So believe in Allāh and His messengers and do not speak of three – stop (this), that is better for you – Allāh is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.’ (Al-Nisa: 171).

The word ‘wakalimatuhu’ is derived from the root ‘kāf lām mīm’; and refers – not to the Logos (the Second Person of the Trinity, as understood by Trinitarians), but to speech; to a spoken word – any word.

The word ‘warūḥun’ is derived from the root ‘rā wāw ḥā’; and comes from the form ‘rūḥ’; meaning ‘soul’; ‘spirit’; and ‘inspiration’. When applied to Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām) it refers to his spirit soul. We all possess the same.

And this:

‘The angels said, ‘Mary, Allāh gives you news of a word (‘bikalimatin’) from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to Allāh. He will speak to people in his infancy and in his adulthood. He will be one of the righteous.’ (Al‘Imran: 45-46)

‘Bikalimatin’ is derived from the same root (‘kāf lām mīm’) as ‘wakalimatuhu’ and, as you might expect, also refers to a spoken word. There is no ‘Logos’ here.

 

[EZweber]

Jesus had a human soul.

I forget which heresy it is to deny this, but it is infallibly taught that he does. We agree here. Catholic teaching is that he posseses a human and a divine nature, so necessarily he must have a human soul. It doesn’t mean that he’s just human though.

 

[mhmtas63]

I forget which heresy it is to deny this, but it is infallibly taught that he does. We agree here. Catholic teaching is that he posseses a human and a divine nature, so necessarily he must have a human soul. It doesn’t mean that he’s just human though.

A human soul and a human body that mean He was a man. And you suppose God assumed that body or soul! How it work? Why to say Jesus was God? Why do we not say that Jesus was a man but had a very powerful connection to God? Jesus was on the world and ate and drunk and slept etc. So as priority Jesus was a man. Beyond that? Just conjectures. Yet if we supposed that God assumed Jesus’s soul (of which we cannot understand and explain exactly and conflict with eternity) but Jesus were to be a man though. God could have some kind of connection to mankind’s soul and heart.

Pagans asked why an angel were not sent by God but a man who was sent who was a mankind. So you ask why God did not come Himself? There was no need to send an angel to preach humanbeing and yet why there should be a need for God to come on the world?(Indeed God is in every where by acts of attributes but not in any where by essence).

Prophets were sent in the name of God. And Jesus were given a great authority. Jesus did and acted in the name of God. Jesus many times declared that He was sent by Father(God) and did Father’s works.

Claiming that Jesus was God do not make Christianity more meaningful but make it close to a heresy!

 

[mdgspencer]

I changed my religion when I was 18. I was dissatisfied with my church then and went looking into different denominations. I would not consider Islam because I believed in Christ.

 

[jochoa]

Jesus had a body and a soul. He lived and acted just like a human. Jesus performed some miracles as some other prophets did. The claim Jesus being God is not in verses but through some strained interpretations. The assert that God assumed a humanly body conflict with eternity. God can feel and see and hear everything that a soul can do with a body. There is no need for incarnation. Jesus had a human soul. And if we assert that God assumed Jesus’s body that make Jesus to be a human and a God. A human cannot be God and God is not human. That is so clear. There is no need for very complex philosophical explanations.

Purpose for God creating everything? I do not know exactly and I think nobody can know. In a hadith it is said “I were a hidden treasure and I wished to be known”. God wished to be known. Love is one very important reason to create everything. God love His arts and through those arts God wished to be loved. Love is very powerful relation and union between everything and God. Humanbeing is the most important art of God. Notice! God is not part of creature and art of Himself.

When one knows the purpose of the Creator of everything creating/the greatest creation possible, the principle that the Creator becomes human no longer conflicts with eternity.

You have enough information to deduce the purpose for creating and the greatest creation possible: “Love is very important reason to create, God loves his arts, human being is the most important art of God, God wants to be loved through his arts, and love is a unified relation.”
Therefore, the greatest reason for creation is that God wants human beings to love as he loves.

While this can be deduced through some of your thoughts about God, Catholicism has known this by Revelation of the Holy Spirit, see CCC#1.

Finally once one accepts this is God’s mission in creating, one finds that getting human beings to love as God loves requires that not only God speak to us to teach us, but also that God become human in order to demonstrate how humans can love in union with him in true friendship. Read deeper into CCC#1

And since this is a formula for the Creator of everything creating the greatest creation possible, it is eternal.

 

[EZweber]

A human soul and a human body that mean He was a man.

Agreed. Christ was fully man. He was also fully God.

And you suppose God assumed that body or soul! How it work?

The divine person of the Son assumed a human nature as well as a divine nature. This is the mystery of the Hypostatic Union. By definition, you will find this almost impossible to understand, (fully impossible to fully understand) but you won’t be able to find a logical contradiction.

 

[EZweber]

Why to say Jesus was God? Why do we not say that Jesus was a man but had a very powerful connection to God?

Because he credibly claimed to be God.

 

[mhmtas63]

Because he credibly claimed to be God.

Could you quote?

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Islam is a bit of a “Johnny-come-lately.” Why would I believe a 7th century middle eastern that the previous 4500 years+ of Judaism (& ultimately the fulfillment in Christianity) were wrong, including their sacred texts (which Christianity adopted from Judaism)? Plus, unlike the Bible, the Qur’an is riddled with errors, including errors about what Christians actually believe! There is too much right about Christianity & too much wrong with Islam for me to have even considered Islam as a “third” choice.