Why do anti-abortion signs

[boppaid]

Bear, respectfully, we’re going round and round here. Your arguments simply make no sense to me at all. Evil is evil. I don’t need an official proclamation by the church to tell me that showing small children grotesque bloddy images of babies being killed is evil. You need that. We’re not going anywhere with these arguments. I guess we should sto, because you’re not understanding me and I am not understanding your viewpoint either. I guess, truly, we’ll need to agree to disagree. You keep up your fight to protest this way, and I’ll keep up mine to try to stop it. We’re both doing what we belive God wants us to do, and we’re obviously not going to change each other’s minds.

God bless.

 

[Grace_Angel]

And the key here are the words “I see”. Our Faith is not based on what you see and having seen some of your other posts, it would seem that things are only evil when you see them evil.

Are you really comparing Fr. Pavone to child molesters as an argument?!

We’ve been over this in previous threads.

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You might want to read again. Can you quote a Church teaching to support your argument? Let’s take just the first thing off the top of my head. Permanent abstinence in marriage is not right unless the life of one of the spouses depended on it. At that point, the act of permanent abstinence (and chastity of course) becomes a sacrificial and beautiful act.

YOu’re argument won’t work here. Now if you used my self-defense with a gun argument (which you never answered by the way) you’d be more on track.

We’re going in circles here. Because no matter how much GOOD is done with these pictures, the ends doesn’t justify the means, imo.

Those words aren’t being used, but nothing is being done by the protesters to ensure this doesn’t happen. Further, It cannot be easily prevented as I have to drive by hospitals, Planned Parenthood and the like every day.

“A life is not ended to give us these cells?” well what is an embryo?
Embryonic stem cells research means death to a human person in its earliest stages of formation. It is not a “cow” embryo, “giraffe” embryo, “tiger” embryo" its a human embryo Which if permitted to continue its process will be delivered (a baby) within a short span of time and then grow into a toddler, child, pre teen, teenager, youth, young adult, adult, middle age, senior citizen, and hopefully citizen of heaven.
A life is ended when stem cell removal/research is carried out on embryos.

 

[bear06]

“A life is not ended to give us these cells?” well what is an embryo?
Embryonic stem cells research means death to a human person in its earliest stages of formation. It is not a “cow” embryo, “giraffe” embryo, “tiger” embryo" its a human embryo Which if permitted to continue its process will be delivered (a baby) within a short span of time and then grow into a toddler, child, pre teen, teenager, youth, young adult, adult, middle age, senior citizen, and hopefully citizen of heaven.
A life is ended when stem cell removal/research is carried out on embryos.

And this is probably one of the reasons we will never agree. I’m not sure that boppaid believes all of the Church teachings on life. I could have it wrong but I’m basing it on posts I’ve seen here and in other threads. Using stem cells (I’m assuming you’re talking about embryonic) and abortion are the same thing, boppaid. One just occurs earlier in a child’s development.

BTW, the quote Grace Angel gave is not entirely mine. Part is boppaid for anyone just tuning in.

 

[Grace_Angel]

And this is probably one of the reasons we will never agree. I’m not sure that boppaid believes all of the Church teachings on life. I could have it wrong but I’m basing it on posts I’ve seen here and in other threads. Using stem cells (I’m assuming you’re talking about embryonic) and abortion are the same thing, boppaid. One just occurs earlier in a child’s development.

BTW, the quote Grace Angel gave is not entirely mine. Part is boppaid for anyone just tuning in.

I am not sure what you are saying to me or even if your reply is to me. What I am saying agrees with you that stem cell research/usage and abortion are one and the same thing, except one is done earlier. In fact the human person has attempted to become like God. I have fears for us.
I can safely say that the next horrible sin will be interspecies manipulation. and then heaven help us. To join the human genetic material (with a soul) and a beast genetic material (beautiful as they are) and create some sort of monster neither fully human not fully beast, will surely test the heart and mind of God. I think I hear God saying “the earth grew corrupt in God’s sight, and filled with violence. God contemplated the earth: it was corrupt, for corrupt are the ways of all flesh” (Gn6:11) and maybe even “I will rid the earth of man my own creation. I regret having made them” (Gn 6:7)
As I look around our society, I have fears.
God Bless
GraceAngel.

 

[fix]

I think we can accuse others of evil without proof. WOuld you have a problem accusing a child molester of being evil ?

If there is proof his actions were evil then one could say his actions were evil. How can you conclude that one holding a sign who is protesting murder is committing an evil act because there may be an unintended consequence?

What if he says to you “It’s not evil! Proove to me that it is!” Now, OF COURSE i"m not saying child molestation is anywhere near the same level as showing children disturbing images, but I’m using a drastic example to show you how it is absolutely possible to declare something as evil with requiring “proof”. It’s evil because it is.

But, you have not proved holding those signs are evil. All you can say is that some children who see those signs may experience some problems. The cause and effect does not equate to the person holding the sign as committing evil.

These folks place a burden on my children. I want these people to feel the tinge of guilt, because I think it is morally wrong to do this to our children. Maybe the guilt will stop them. I know they themselves aren’t evil, but I believe with all my heart that they are morally wrong.

Your opinion is not fact. Again, good actions may have unintended evil consequences. That evil may happen does not mean one is morally culpable.

If they know that innocent children are walking by and can see the photos, it is not unintentional. Especially people on this thread, as people are TELLING them that their children have been hurt by this.

You are concluding that any exposure of these things to children is an evil committed by these folks. If it is an evil it is not intended and may be permitted because the evil experienced is an unintended byproduct and is of a lesser proportion than the necessity of stopping abortion.

Thank you. And thanks for debating this so nicely! It’s a passionate subject no doubt. I hope you never mistake my bluntness for rudeness or hate.

I am not offended in any way. I thank you because you have helped me explore a topic I have not thought about before.

 

[Rosalinda]

Boppaid, I respectfully submit many posters here are faithful Catholics who do have opposing viewpoints and we are sincerely struggling with this issue on the merits of graphic abortion images. All opinions are not equal however. Fix has politely requested you offer proof for your numerous allegations which frankly are slanderous. These images depict absolute evil; the protesters who show them are truthfully exposing the “product of evil”. They themselves are not evil. It is the abortion providers who commit these murders who are acting under the influence of evil. Note, I have not judged them as evil no more than I have judged the mothers, grandparents, boyfriends or husbands directly involved in the decision to take an innocent life. They have committed objectively grave acts but their responsibility may be mitigated by special circumstances which only God can know. We can only call them to repentance and conversion while there is still time to receive forgiveness and healing for these abominable crimes against humanity.

If you would take the time to educate your conscience through reading the many resources which are available today maybe you could begin to sort through these nuances and distinctions rather than shooting from the hip and undermining your credibility. You will find great clarity and wisdom in the writings of John Paul II. "The Splendor of Truth" and the "Gospel of Life" . If that seems too daunting a task begin by reading scripture daily.

No wonder there is so much violence in the world today and in the U. S. Each one thinks he is the standard of good and evil: “As long as I think it is all right, it is all right.” Because of our courts, public schools for long have been forbidden to teach any religion or morality…

Fr. William Most “On the Splendor of Truth” ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/SPLENDOR.TXT

[By the way, embryos are destroyed when their stem cells are removed.]

 

[bear06]

I am not sure what you are saying to me or even if your reply is to me. What I am saying agrees with you that stem cell research/usage and abortion are one and the same thing, except one is done earlier. In fact the human person has attempted to become like God. I have fears for us.
I can safely say that the next horrible sin will be interspecies manipulation. and then heaven help us. To join the human genetic material (with a soul) and a beast genetic material (beautiful as they are) and create some sort of monster neither fully human not fully beast, will surely test the heart and mind of God. I think I hear God saying “the earth grew corrupt in God’s sight, and filled with violence. God contemplated the earth: it was corrupt, for corrupt are the ways of all flesh” (Gn6:11) and maybe even “I will rid the earth of man my own creation. I regret having made them” (Gn 6:7)
As I look around our society, I have fears.
God Bless
GraceAngel.

Sorry for the misunderstanding GraceAngel. That’s what happens when I post so late! You and I agree. Boppaid and I will never agree because it would appear that we are not on the same page as far as the teachings of the Church on life.

 

[Rosalinda]

And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God

Jn.3:19-21
The forces of evil do not want their lies to be exposed to the light of truth. The biggest lie of the abortion industry to mothers who ask, “Is this going to hurt my baby?” is to deny their very existence in the first place. “No, it is just a blob of tissue…a blood clot…a product of conception. It is not a baby.”

Pro-life activists stand boldly in the light of day with images that proclaim the humanity of the unborn children. Their courage should be commended, not condemned.

 

[marcsababa]

And the end result to using embryos for stem cell research to potentially saving lives is good. Especially since they are thrown in the garbage whether or not they are used for research. But as we always say, even though good can come out of it, the end doesn’t justify the means, right?

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In order to avoud any miscommunication and in the hopes of increasing the ability for all the to learn from this debate I would like to point out, that Boppaid never supported embryonic research. She used it as an example to of something that is evil even though some may say it might have a good end.

So she is expressing that she understands that cutting up little “embryos” for their malleable little cells is not right no matter how useful those little malleable cells may be. (Off topic: although they are unpredictable little cells and adult stem cells are much more reliable)

Okay?

 

[marcsababa]

Mommy2Green!!

Have you had any success with Bear’s suggestions for finding the group you saw?

Usually pro life groups will know of each other in a city so if you call one then you may be directed to the right one eventually.

I feel strongly about this yelling business. I suspect if you had seen our nice looking, well spoken CBER members where I live you might have had a completely different experience.

PM me if you want me to help you find the group. I am sure Bear, who seems to be more active in prolife (having been jailed and all that ) and might be from your country would help you too.

 

[bear06]

In order to avoud any miscommunication and in the hopes of increasing the ability for all the to learn from this debate I would like to point out, that Boppaid never supported embryonic research. She used it as an example to of something that is evil even though some may say it might have a good end.

So she is expressing that she understands that cutting up little “embryos” for their malleable little cells is not right no matter how useful those little malleable cells may be. (Off topic: although they are unpredictable little cells and adult stem cells are much more reliable)

Okay?

I think what GraceAngel was addressing was the part where boppaid said no life was killed. This is the part that’s contrary to Church teaching.

Posted by boppaid:

A life can possibly be saved by using embryotic stem cells. A life is NOT ended to give us these cells,

The Church teaches that a life IS ended by use of these cells. These cells a distinct individual with its own DNA.

 

[marcsababa]

Regarding the ending of a babies life by cutting it up to remove some celluar material.

Holy smokes Bear!! Sorry. I did find the other reference to that. Yes I see. Sorry Grace!!

Boppaid!! I think there something you are missing here about stem cell research on unborn babies:

If I am a murderous villain and like killing cute kids and putting them in the garbage, then it isn’t any less horrible for someone to cut out it’s heart THEN toss the kid in the garbage. Even if the heart would be used to save my child’s life.

Boppaid this is another subject altogether do you want to start a thread on it?

 

[boppaid]

Sorry for the misunderstanding GraceAngel. That’s what happens when I post so late! You and I agree. Boppaid and I will never agree because it would appear that we are not on the same page as far as the teachings of the Church on life.

Please note… I am NOT saying I support stem cell research. I’m simply pointing out the hippocracy of saying the ends justifies the means in some instances but not in others. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[bear06]

Please note… I am NOT saying I support stem cell research. I’m simply pointing out the hippocracy of saying the ends justifies the means in some instances but not in others. Sorry for the confusion.

I didn’t think you supported it. It just appears that you don’t think that “embryonic stems cells” equals a person. Can you clarify?

 

[boppaid]

Fix has politely requested you offer proof for your numerous allegations which frankly are slanderous.

I am still not sure what Fix is looking for. How can you prove your child was hurt by this? How can you prove that I think it is evil? It is my opinion that it is evil. It is the opinion of many that it is evil. Why do I think it’s evil? I have given you all my reasons. You do not need to agree. But I will not stop trying to stop this type of activity.

Like I said before, I don’t need the church to submit an official proclamation that showing innocent little children bloody, grotesque, images of murdered babies is evil. You may need that official proclamation before you deem something evil. I don’t. THAT is a difference. So, where you require “proof” (which I’m guessing means Church doctrine), I don’t need the church to tell me that it’s a horrible thing to do. As far as slander goes, I never pretended that it wasn’t my opinion that the actions of those groups is evil. Never. And last I checked, we are all entitled to our opinions, aren’t we? Thus, the freedom protestors have to protest legal activities at all.

These images depict absolute evil; the protesters who show them are truthfully exposing the “product of evil”. They themselves are not evil. It is the abortion providers who commit these murders who are acting under the influence of evil.

I’m not arguing the merits of abortion. But there is a time and a place for everything, and I am arguing that no matter how good the outcome may POSSIBLY be, I don’t want my children’s innocence taken away. Because then not only is there the sin of abortion, there is also the horror of my child’s innocence being taken away. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and there should never be justification for a wrong. And I would think that everyone here thinks it is at least “wrong” for a child to be shown these posters, even if they prefer not to use the word “evil”.

If you would take the time to educate your conscience through reading the many resources which are available today maybe you could begin to sort through these nuances and distinctions rather than shooting from the hip and undermining your credibility. You will find great clarity and wisdom in the writings of John Paul II. "The Splendor of Truth" and the "Gospel of Life" . If that seems too daunting a task begin by reading scripture daily.

I have read both. And I do read the scripture daily. And in doing so, I still come to the same conclusions. Even moreso maybe because of my readings of scripture.

[By the way, embryos are destroyed when their stem cells are removed.]

And they are destroyed when their stem cells are not removed. By being thrown away.

 

[boppaid]

In order to avoud any miscommunication and in the hopes of increasing the ability for all the to learn from this debate I would like to point out, that Boppaid never supported embryonic research. She used it as an example to of something that is evil even though some may say it might have a good end.

So she is expressing that she understands that cutting up little “embryos” for their malleable little cells is not right no matter how useful those little malleable cells may be. (Off topic: although they are unpredictable little cells and adult stem cells are much more reliable)

Okay?

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You expressed my view point exactly. I am not in support of stem cell research. I am pointing out how that side argues, and how pro-lifers argue back. Yet when I use those same arguments for the wrong commited by exposing pictures of horror to small children, I’m wrong.

 

[boppaid]

I think what GraceAngel was addressing was the part where boppaid said no life was killed. This is the part that’s contrary to Church teaching.

Posted by boppaid:

The Church teaches that a life IS ended by use of these cells. These cells a distinct individual with its own DNA.

Actually, technically the reason the life is ended has nothing to do with stem cell research, but is ended because no one is going to give those embryos a chance at life anyway. They will be discarded. That is not the reason I am against stem-cell research. I am against it because it is a slippery slope.

 

[boppaid]

I didn’t think you supported it. It just appears that you don’t think that “embryonic stems cells” equals a person. Can you clarify?

Yes, I believe embryonic stem cells is human life. However, our current laws require embryos to be discarded if the actual parents choose not to implant them. As of now, there is no adoption procedure for those embryos. Right or wrong, that is the law. So they are being discarded. Part of me would prefer some good to come out of their life before they die. However, I know that the end never justifies the means.

I know that in the stem cell debate, and I know that (with all my heart) with these posters that children are sometimes forced to see. It just breaks my heart.

 

[bear06]

Actually, technically the reason the life is ended has nothing to do with stem cell research, but is ended because no one is going to give those embryos a chance at life anyway. They will be discarded. That is not the reason I am against stem-cell research. I am against it because it is a slippery slope.

Actually, in many cases those embyos can and have been adopted. on’t you remember the pictures of Bush standing with a bunch of children who were adopted embryos? While the children should have never been created in such a contrary to God’s design way, they shouldn’t be discarded and we should be doing all we can to stop that and make sure that those who have already been created get the fullest chance of life. The Church has yet to clarify if embryo adoption is acceptable and here’s a good article on this:
cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=263

Like I’ve said before, necessity can make all of the difference in the world such as the couple who must totally abstain in their marriage. There are reasons that people shouldn’t do this and there are reasons why it is perfectly justifiable and good for them to do so. The reason why the stem cell argument is a bad example is that you are comparing the death of another child. Graphic signs are not the same thing. Death of a child by anything other than natural causes always equals the gravest of evils.

 

[Grace_Angel]

Sorry for the misunderstanding GraceAngel. That’s what happens when I post so late! You and I agree. Boppaid and I will never agree because it would appear that we are not on the same page as far as the teachings of the Church on life.

Thats Ok Bear06, I forgive you because you winked at me. thats the first wink I got to day. so thank you.
GraceAngel.