Why do Christians reject the Talmud?

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Haha! Yes, everything costs something. you know, there are many excellent sources, and free, here: https://www.chabad.org/

That includes a free Tanakh with Rashi.

the problem with the JPS is that is DOES use the Greek Septuagint, which the rabbis did not translate.
 
so while it’s great to compare that with the Artscroll, I rely on that more often, sorry lol…!
 
That, above regarding the Essenes and Josephus, was my long awaited take on why I feel they all followed the Oral Law, and there’s more where that came from, but perhaps another time for those interested.
 
Now everyone keep in mind that Josephus was not raised a Pharisee, and for a time he wasn’t a fan, and he researched everyone’s brother’s sect, but in the end, chose Pharisaic Judaism.
 
Mormons and Muslims didn’t die as eyewitnesses but the 12 apostles did
 
From what I can tell, and I’m certainly no expert either ( @Rabbi sounds like the Hebrew expert here ), the extra Alef renders the word to mean “like a lion”

Here’s an interesting site – it’s Messianic though, so already it will favor Y’shua. This is the conclusion they reach:

“In conclusion, the wooden literal translation of כארי does not mean to “pierce,” and does mean “like a lion,” but “ כרה ” taken from Gen 25:31 does mean dig, as in to dig into the hand, and in the above example: to dig into the hand and heel of Mashiach. Thus we see from Torah that the hand and heel of Mashiach are dug into or pierced.”

Also from the article: "Targum Jonathan renders the word in Psalms 22 as “ נכתין ” which means “ biting ” – again emphasizing on the sharp intent for the concept “dug through.”

This whole article is very interesting, and I also invite @Rabbi to it.
http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/apologetics/pslam-2217-like-a-lion-or-pierced/
 
@Autumn-Smoke, Thank you for that article from the Jerusalem Council website, but I have a couple of queries. First, this:

A common dispute some raise is over the interpretation of Psalm 22:17 as quoted by Matthew. 27:41-43.

That is inexact. Matthew does not quote v. 17 (v.16 in some Bibles). In fact, as far as I’m aware, there is not a single allusion to this verse anywhere in the NT. Matthew does allude, in 27:35, to a different verse in the same Psalm, “They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing,” but that sheds no light at all on the “pierced”/“like a lion” question.

The other thing is this:

Gen 25:31
Look for “יעקב מכרה”
yaa’kov. akov = heel. yod in front is what? a reference to yad – hand.
Thus
יעקב מכרה
י hand
עקב heel
מ (stands for) mashiach
כרה pierced.

The word in Gen 25:31 that he picks on here is not karah, “to dig”, but mikrah, the imperative of the verb “to sell”. The spelling is similar: in unpointed Hebrew, krh (כרה) in one case, mkrh (מכרה) in the other, with an extra “m” at the beginning. But there is no linguistic connection. They are unrelated words. The whole argument that he builds on this similarity is utterly spurious. It’s as if he were claiming, in English, that “old” and “mold” are the same word, or “ink” and “mink”, or “other” and “mother”. That makes no sense to me at all.
 
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Lol, you’re saying the alternative to the truth is that it’s all just made up?
 
Thank you for all of the time you have taken and for all the scholarly knowledge and research regarding the Hebrew, which I only know a little of, but hope to study more. So your posts are motivating.

I wanted to address a couple of your comments about Psalm 22 being about David and not the Messiah. Christians would believe that scripture is often layered: in other words, we could see David in Psalm 22, but believe that the Messiah is the fullness of the Psalm. And since we are currently discussing the interpretation of "like a lion’ vs ‘pierced’, I would like to ask a different question, because I can’t think off hand, but is there an instance in scripture where it shows David’s garments being shared out among others and casting lots for his clothing? (This did happen to Y’shua, though.)

An example I could put forward about the layering of scripture is the story of Abraham as he was about to sacrifice his son. The angel stayed his hand and told Abraham that God would himself provide the Lamb for the Burnt Offering. Then we see that a Ram was caught in the thicket, and Abraham used that as his sacrifice. So God did provide the sacrifice, and that is fulfilled, but we also see a future fulfillment because the scripture says that God would provide a Lamb for the offering, yet what was provided was a Ram (2 separate words in Hebrew). We would believe the Hebrew Scriptures had 2 separate fulfillments in mind: one immediate, and the more precise one yet to come. And so we would see the same in many of the scriptures and we would believe that Messiah Y’shua is the fullness of the scripture. When John the Baptist saw Jesus, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.” And also The prophet Isaiah wrote about someone who, like Isaac, would not resist the sentence of death: “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7)

to be continued: as this is too long to post.
 
from the above post:

The other thing I would like to mention is your concern about Psalm 22 not being quoted in the Gospels or by Paul. Matthew is the main Gospel writer known for quoting Hebrew scriptures in order to show how Jesus fulfilled them. He mainly speaks about the life and words of Christ, however, and doesn’t show specific quotes from the Hebrew scripture about the death of Christ fulfilling specific passages.

The scriptures record that after Jesus’ resurrection, he appeared to the apostles and explained the scripture to them, pointing to all of the passages and how he fulfilled them. I would have loved to have been there. I don’t think anyone set out to put all of that into a book–at least it’s not something we have. I wish there would have been.

Paul’s main message was to tell the newly believing Christians how to live their lives. Paul was a missionary to the Gentiles. He did not set out to prove that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah by quoting Hebrew Scripture to the Gentiles, so that probably explains why Paul did not include this in his writings.

Thank for your kind invitation to pray about these things.
HaShem promised that those who seek him will find him. I, too, seek “The Face of God.” I might ask that you also would ask HaShem to show you whether or not Y’shua might be the One who was sent.
(I would ditto what you had mentioned to me earlier and say that I’m not trying to convert either, as that is not my intention.)

Blessings to HaShem and peace be to you.
 
Le_Crouton said:
Lol, you’re saying the alternative to the truth is that it’s all just made up?
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Lol, you’re saying that things are true because you say they are, which works for you but not necessarily for other people.
 
No I’m saying they’re true because there’s solid evidence backing it up
 
I see your point, and thank you for the kind words. I would just point out, however, that we’re dealing with כָּאֲרִי (kaari), note that the least three letters there mean “lion” (ari), whereas the kaph, usually seen before words, means “like” or “as.” The whole rest of the verse reads as: “k’ari b’yadai v’ragla.” Psalm 17:11-12 also uses the same motif. Remember now, when you finally master Hebrew, you will realize that the word כארו means what? What does it mean? It means nothing. כארו isn’t a word in Hebrew, the site is again relying on false information. The word we’re looking for here is כָּרוּ, spelled with the letters kaf, raish, and vav, without the alef. This word again means to open, it doesn’t mean to “dig” as in flesh, more like to open, to pry, to bore. This denotes more like excavation than stabbing, and in all 15 verses in Tanakh, it is never used in either a literal or metaphorical sense to connote piercing. Again, the psalmist could have used words to stab, such as נקב (Isaiah 36:6) or דּקר (Zechariah 12:10). So when you see the word כארו in that manuscript, it’s just a scribal error. He meant to write כָּאֲרִי, just extended the line to make it a vav; as said earlier, this is a common mistake and the whole fragment is filled with them and others so I wonder why Christians rely on it? Why rely on a text with so many mistakes and a faked word? My point? The LXX and that fragment are then the only documents in the entire word which has this never-seen before word: כארו. Of course, some say this is just an alternative spelling for כרו, but they don’t understand the grammatical implications to this, again, it’s imosspible as there is no solid reason to drop the alef, nor is there a root for it. You know I wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t true. So what you’re really reading is “They dug my hands and feet”??? Does this make any sense? Remember, כָּרוּ does not mean “pierced,” but supposedly, כארו does. Recall now that כָּרוּ would not be the verb used in Psalm 22:17. However, you can find it in Psalm 57:7, 119:85, Jeremiah 18:20, and 18:22. The form is past-tense, 3rd person, masculine singular.
 
Let’s look at some examples:

כָּרִֽיתִי - kariti “I dug” (Genesis 50:5),
כָּרִֽיתָ karita “you [m.sing.] dug” (Psalm 40:7),
כָּרִית karit "you [f.sing.] dug”,
כָּרָה karah “he dug” (Psalm 7:16 & 2 Chronicles 16:14),
כָּרְתָה kar’tah “she dug”,
כָּרִֽינוּ karinu “we dug”,
כְּרִיתֶם k’riy’tem “you [m.pl.] dug”,
כְּרִיתֶן k’riy’ten “you [f.pl.] dug”,
כָּרוּ karu "they dug”.

Note that not one of them had an alef like כארו. To say that כארו is the alternative spelling of כרו is akin to saying the English “dug” has an alternative spelling in “”dutg.” Silly, right? Remember, the KJV correctly translates כָּאֲרִי as “like a lion” until it comes to Psalm 22:17, then, for whatever reason, they don’t know how to translate it! For example: Numbers 23:24 (veka’ari) “and I as a young lion”; Numbers 24:9 (ka’ari) “like a lion”; Isaiah 38:13 (ka’ari) “like a lion”; and Ezekiel 22:25 (ka’ari) “like a lion.” Again, has it really been “pierced,” the sentence structure should have an “et,” to show us the direct object to be affected by the verb, but, as it turns out, there is no “et.” Another point, the use of qamatz under the kaph in kaari, is because of an assimilated definite article. Therefore, the best translation should be “Like the lion. . . .” In English, a noun used generally has no article, be it definite or indefinite, but this isn’t so in Hebrew. In Hebrew, nouns take on the definite article. For example, “Work is good for man” in Hebrew comes out as “The work is good for man” in English.

Lastly, Psalm 22 is an elliptical chapter. David means to imply that his enemies gnaw at his hands and feet like a lion. This technique, which conveys pain, is a rhetorical device. It’s akin to what we find in verse 1, it’s just full of broken phrases, and only the critical stuff matters: “Far from helping me . . . the words of my roaring.”

Moreover, verses 17, 21 and 22 express parallel thoughts: his enemies are like lions and dogs, and David asks the Almighty to end his torment from “the dog’s paw,” the “lion’s mouth.”

In fact, the use of this psalm’s lagauage isn’t too dissimilar to Jeremiah 23:9, who also spoke of a metaphorical language as a broken heart and bones to relate physical pain.
 
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Regarding Psalm 22 and the tearing of the garments, just note that John did not understand the Hebrew parallelism here as referring to two different, unrelated acts, as is often found in biblical poetry. This means that there is a parallel structure, and the repetition of something (such as John cites), does not evoke duplication in reality (for example, see Zechariah 9:9). Now John (19:24) states that the Romans tore Jesus’ clothing but NOT the inner garment, which was seamless, and so they cast lots for it. However, if it is true that Jesus was beaten and then his clothes put back on his bloody body (see Matthew 27:26, 31; Mark 15:15, 20, John 19:), why would these guys want them? I mean, it just seems gross and all! Nor would they place a purple dyed robe on him, as the dye would have been very expensive in the ancient world and was reserved for royalty (the Roman Emperor, for example, wore purple).

I understand your use of biblical parealeism though. Rashi and plenty of others state that David’s anguish was about the children of Israel in the coming exile.

I must admit, while booms have been written on Isaiah 53 and I’d love to tackle it after we finish with Psalm 22 as there is a ton of stuff to cover there.
 
BartholomewB said:
Around that time, I believe, Justin Martyr mentioned Jewish Christians, but I don’t know whether he necessarily meant that Jewish and Gentile Christians still had their separate churches. Perhaps not. What do you think?
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Respecting and opinion only. Looking within what is written Historically and Religiously the beliefs of those in such times…

Their Temple was destroyed in 70 AD many Jews fled such persecution before and after, right?

If correct …1 million Jews fled to …Alexander the Great Harbor known as Greek Jews of the Uncircumcision, could this be true?

And about 1 million fled to Pella, …were Jews of the circumcision or known as the poor …where much is written about Apostles, St Peter, St Mark, Andrew could this be correct?

Also James the brother of the Lord was head over the Mother Jerusalem Assembly of the Apostles…for 30 years immed after Jesus death (31 or 33 AD)…Temple was not destroyed till 70 AD right?

With persecutions wars going on within also here and there, rulers over the Jewish people…many were fleeing …etc right?

After James the brother of the Lord, known also as James the Just or James the Righteous…known by all the Community, Romans even… as a very Holy man right?
Did they not have 11 Hebrew successors after… James and the last being around 135 Ad???..hard now to assembly all scattered. Their places established to study, counsel members, priest, gather on their Synagogues weekly etc etc and once their Temple was destroyed, great persecutions, wars, all were scattering, families fleeing right into other Nations?

And by 135 AD all Hebrew Israelites, Jesus, Apostles had died by then right? Which might of lead to many different… Christian sects…taking root?

Different Christian groups took root, is this not recorded religiously and historically also?
Some believe Jesus was God and some did not right?
Some believed in the Virgin births some did not right?
Some believed it was John Baptist some did not right?
Some believed still had to be circumcised some did not?
Some in distant lands never heard about the Resurrection like within the letters of Paul, Priscilla teaching Apollos about, right?

Confusing …now all over for Jews had scattered, fled for safety for their families into other areas, no Temple etc again… right?

Will find the list of those who succeeded after this… James, even our own church mentions such I believe…but first let me find their names again, could be very wrong…

Peace
 
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Sorry I may have missed it, how does your translation read, for Psalm 22: 16-18?
 
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