Why do Christians reject the Talmud?

[Rabbi]

Perhaps the only reason Christians try quoting Jeremiah 31:30 out of context is because they’re excited that it mentions a new covenant, and in your ears, this means Jesus? You’ve got to remember, this text is graphic, meaning, we should take it in its literal sense: so what does it say? It says at the inception of this new covenant, G-d will write His commandments in our hearts (they won’t be done away with as Paul believed) and the whole world will know G-d when the real Messiah steps forward.

Yes, G-d will have a new covenant, but it’ll be based on the same, eternal Torah. The Torah of Moses.

Moreover, even though you’re half right, that we did break with G-d’s covenant (Jeremiah 11:10, Ezekiel 16:59), G-d firmly affirms us that He’ll always forgive us, and renew His relationship with us as attested to in Ezekiel 16:60, " I will remember My covenant with you of the days of your youth, and I will establish it for you as an everlasting covenant.

Similarly, we can find a parallel to this in Leviticus 26:15, where G-d tells us that the people of Israel will face terrible loss and punishment for their sins if they disobey Him. G-d even went to the point of threatening to annul His covenant with us. But then we get verse 44:45, what does it say?

The G-d of Israel promises us:

“. . . When they are in the land of their enemies, I will not be disgusted with them, nor will I abhor them to destroy them and break My covenant with them, for I am Adonai their G-d. And I will remember the covenant with the first ones, whom I took out of the Land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be a G-d for them. I am Adonai.”

And it doesn’t end there, all throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, G-d repeatedly states that He will never replace us with another nation (not even a spiritual one), and that His covenant with Israel is eternal. Below are some brief examples:

Ezekiel 20:32-37, Isaiah 54:8-10, Psalms 105:8-10, and Genesis 17:7.

Do you believe in the G-d of Israel? If so, then why are you choosing to cherry-pick passages and verses to promote the false dogma that G-d abandoned us in favor of a spiritual nation? Can Jesus change the word of G-d? Going by Christian logic, it is impossible to take G-d seriously, for He would have had to have lied to have rejected Israel for the spiritual Christian nation when He Himself made the standard that such a thing would never be possible!

 

[Rabbi]

One last point: how do we know the Jewish people haven’t been replaced by the Church? I will purpose to you a challenge from Scripture, if you can find a way to refute it, granted, the Church is now the chosen people in means of setting an example for the world to follow the true G-d (Isaiah 49:6). You cannot quote outside of Tanakh, because that alone is our foundation. You must show a verse in Tanakh which contradicts what I’m about to say, or shows that G-d clearly has changed His mind. Here’s the passage, good luck.

“So said Adonai, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, HaShem of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says Adonai, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time.” - Jeremiah 31:34-35

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

explain to me Psalm 19:8-9, “The law of Adonai is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of HaShem is faithful, making the simple one wise. The orders of Adonai are upright, causing the heart to rejoice; the commandment of Adonai is clear, enlightening the eyes.”

This psalm is a literary endeavor in apologetics praising the Law. There is no evidence that this Law mentioned in the psalm is from the Books or Moses/ Pentateuch/ Torah. Adonai is a more generic name than YHWH. The written code could be of any civilized nation. It could be called the Song of the Scribe, the privileged one who has access to the written code, thus earning a living from his subject, the Law. The scribe is praising the tool of his his high living which is the written code. No wonder Jesus came out against the scribes with harsh words, condemning them for enforcing the letters but hiding God behind the Law.

Again, don’t know why you think Judaism is a religion of violence and not love.

The prophet Jeremiah prays to his God praising Him: “You brought your people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs and wonders, with a strong hand and outstretched arm, and with great terror.” (Jer. 32:21)

I have a great concern about an elevated emphasis on, even glorification of the strong arm and great terror in Old Testament history.

The modern state of Israel also has virtually no death penalty.

“Virtually” means Israel still believes in death penalty. The attacks on Gaza show that even military campaigns can be conducted in a way to impose death on innocent civilians.

Catholics oppose dead penalty even for murder

No. It has not been always true. But we believe in a continuous revelation by God that allows us to discern divine truth in history. The Catholic Church, as the Body of Christ is alive among us to convey further revelations to humankind as God wishes us to discern. At this point of time the Church stands firm against death penalty and wars.

 

[Rabbi]

I cannot make sense of anything you’re saying. Is the Bible our authority or not? As a Christian, you’d reject that the Psalms were divinely inspired by G-d? What other law could he be talking about? There are plenty of more verses I could pull which make it clear he is talking about the Torah of Moses.

“Teach (תורם) them the right way to live.” - 1 Kings 8:36

“She [the law] is a tree of life to those who take hold of her.” - Proverbs 3:18

Mitzvot, "good needs,” originats from “Tzavta” - (צוותא), which means “connection” to G-d. And there are more verses I could point to, too many to count. But I give up communicating with you if you’re going to present the Book of Psalms as antithetical to G-d, as if the scribes who wrote Psalms (and King David himself) were really villians whom Jesus despised as crooks teaching the “yoke” of the “Law.” This is pure nonesense.

As far as G-d being a “brute” in Tanakh, shame on you. You never read the “Old Testament” in full if you believe such.

And Israel’s only job is to protect herself from terrorists. Do you disagree with G-d giving us the land we deserve? You are like Marcion of Sinope. Google him, as you’ll find you have more in common with him than the Pope.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

As a Christian, you’d reject that the Psalms were divinely inspired by G-d? What other law could he be talking about?

I am sorry, Rabbi, you misunderstood me. I don’t reject the Psalms. But divine inspiration means somewhat else for a Catholic than for a follower of orthodox Judaism. We believe that inspired writings have God’s message in them. We don’t know exactly how is it there, but we believe in inspiration. That is why we look for involved discernment of God’s message rather than a trivial literal understanding. The truth is hidden more deeply than what is visible on the surface, as word-by-word literal meaning.

We need discernment to get a grasp of why did Jesus reject the scribes, the most elite caste of Ancient Jews who had the best knowledge of the Law and the Scriptures. Why did Jesus have to say about the scribes what He said? Well, our faith is based on the belief that the Law is for the humankind and not the humankind is for the Law. This is exactly what Jesus told us.

We see no direct connection between Biblical poetry and the Law, because hardly any psalms are talking about the events described in the Pentateuch. An interpretation could make the link, referring to a handful of psalms from the vast collection. But this is a weak link, not the strong foundation one would expect. If God did all the wonderful deeds as described in the books of Moses, then all poetry praising the same God should voice these very same magnificent deeds. We don’t see too much of it in the Psalms.

As far as G-d being a “brute” in Tanakh, shame on you

I only quoted Jeremiah who praises God for leading the people with strong arm and great terror.

I know who Marcion of Sinope was. He was an heretic. Modern literary criticism is not based on Marcion but on modern scholarship.

 

[AlNg]

we believe in a continuous revelation by God

I thought that Divine revelation stopped shortly after the Resurrection?

 

[Rabbi]

Judaism is very similar then. We also have Peshat (the simple meaning), Remez (symbolic hints), Derash (metaphorical meaning), and Sod (esoteric meaning) to a given text. Yes, there are a few psalms which explain, in somewhat midrashic terms, the giving of the Torah and creation.

It I will ask you this: if the Torah (law) was a mistake, if G-d knew the Jews couldn’t really keep it, then why give it at all? If Jesus had just a problem with it, you’d think G-d would have saved him some time by never giving the Torah to begin with. The Torah teaches us how to worship G-d properly. Without it, we have no business discussing Him. So how do you explain this, since G-d can see the future?

 

[Rabbi]

Wasn’t Malachi the last prophet? He was. Revelation ended there, as described.

 

[AlNg]

You must show a verse in Tanakh which contradicts what I’m about to say, or shows that G-d clearly has changed His mind.

That brings up a question as to whether or not G-d can change His Mind.
Exodus 32: 14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jeremiah 26: 19
“Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves.”
Amos 7: 3
Amos 7: 6
Jeremiah 18: 8
Jeremiah 26: 13
Do Jews believe that G-d can change His Mind? I know that there are other quotes from the Bible which say that He cannot change His mind.

 

[AlNg]

Wasn’t Malachi the last prophet? He was. Revelation ended there, as described.

OK, but i was asking the question from the Catholic point of view.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

The Immaculate Conception of Mary was revealed in the 19th century.

 

[AlNg]

The Immaculate Conception of Mary was revealed in the 19th century.

i thought it was defined then.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

i thought it was defined then.

You are right that a definition or conclusion of a truth may be hidden in divine revelation from earlier ages. The Immaculate Conception was somehow revealed back in the time, but a definition or formulation of this truth was still necessary in the 19th century in order to make it explicitly known. So I should have said that the Holy Tradition keeps some revealed truth hidden that has not been defined/ formulated yet. It is improper to call this continuous revelation, rather it should be called continuous discernment. Discernment is needed to come to terms with this truth and make it explicit. This might explain why the Catholic Church is against death penalty.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

if the Torah (law) was a mistake, if G-d knew the Jews couldn’t really keep it, then why give it at all?

I did not say it was a mistake. It was a step toward truth. I don’t believe it was supposed to be the final step though, more like an initial step. As a Christian, I believe Jesus’ correction of the Law was another step. God guides us to the truth but it is us who have to recognize and internalize what truth is. Internalizing is to accept its human form. Jesus somehow became a human form of the divine truth that is easier for us to connect with. Thus, we arrive back to square one: should the truth be in human form? Are we for the Book or is the Book for us?

 

[Rabbi]

One thing to point out:

“Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of HaShem your G-d which I command you.” - Deuteronomy 4:2

We’re already perfectly aware of the fact that G-d has suspended and annulled any further “progressive revelation” from this very verse (the example Christians love citing from Genesis doesn’t do justice, the story of Adam and Eve, and G-d’s forgiveness towards them, does not help their case in proving progressive revelation, its simply just a narrative of unfolding events). We can then safely conclude that G-d doesn’t play games when announcing His nature, nor will He hide it from us:

“I [G-d] have not spoken in secret, in a place of a land of darkness. I did not say to the seed of Jacob `seek me in vain.’ I, HaShem, speak righteousness, I declare things that are upright.” - Isaiah 45:19

Another point: you brought up Exodus 32:14, Jeremiah 18: 8, 26:13-19, and Amos 7: 3-6 as evidence for G-d changing His mind. However, I feel that these are different, as its one thing to say G-d can change His mind from anger to happiness (Rambam says He doesn’t even have feelings to begin with, but that’s besides the point), as opposed to changing His mind on something theological. I think that’s the difference, and G-d promising to not wipe out the seed of Israel was a theological promise, not some mere fluctuation in emotions. After all, if G-d promised not to do something, would He then go back on His word? The words in Jeremiah 31:34-35 are not, “I’m in the mood for,”… no, G-d said He made a promise. Would the Creator of Heaven and earth break a promise? If so, then how are you sure g-d hasn’t done it again and annulled the death of Jesus to atone for sin? Such a G-d would be entirely inconsistent, like a teen girl getting her monthly mood swings! That’s not G-d! G-d isn’t a person (Hosea 11:9, Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 16:7).

The reason why G-d won’t lie, or make bad judgements, is highlighted in all these verse. Why? Because Elhoim is not a man!

Yes, Numbers 23:19 does denote character, and its wholesale difference from our own (such as in the case of Isaiah 55:6-9), but it also states something else: Why is G-d unlike us, why are His ways different than ours, why is He taking the time to Himself with His people? Because the Creator of Heaven and Earth is benevolent enough not to fall into the lowly patterns of His creation. Hence, its two birds with one stone, these verses not only mention His character, but also His nature.

 

[Rabbi]

I can further prove this by citing Jewish holidays which espouse quit nicely, this distinguishing feature and common thread between G-d and man.

First, let’s get a look at Passover. In one of the most dramatic books of the Torah, G-d sets His people free from their bondage in Egypt. The ten plagues (more like warning signs), are not issued directly at the Egyptian people, but at the false gods of Egypt, proving that there is only one G-d, and that He has moral standards all should follow. This idea is made no clearer than Exodus 12:12,

“I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night, and I will smite every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and upon all the gods of Egypt will I wreak judgments I, Adonai.”

Let’s see if this is the case. The ancient Egyptian pledged their allegiance to the Nile, Moses ran it red with blood. The Egyptians worshiped the sun god, Ra; Moses, with G-d’s aide, made the sun go black for three days. This caused the destruction of the harvest by swarming lotuses, proving G-d’s authority over the pagan worshipers of fertility. The last plague was directed at the firstborn of Egypt, those priests of the gods. In fact, Pharaoh was worshiped as a god, but even he couldn’t save his own son. The point of this holiday? G-d is mocking Pharaoh, He’s practically saying, “If you’re god, do something it!” G-d is saying “Sorry, but Pharaoh, you are no god.”

The second holiday is Chanukah. Antiochus of Syria, a Greek Hellenist, had plans to destroy the Temple of the Jews. He was saying, for all intents and purposes, that “I, Antiochus, am god.” I mean, he did use the phrase Antiochus Epiphanes, or, “Antiochus who is god manifested.” But sure enough, G-d made a show of him when the Maccabean revolt rose to fight back. In this way, G-d was again saying sorry, because Antiochus was only a man.

The last holiday which states man is different than G-d is the Jewish celebration of Purim. In the Book of Esther, Haman, another monster who plotted to purge the Jews of the Persian empire, was cleverly slain by Mordechai, a man who refused to bow down to him and the gods of Persia. What is the point of this marvelous book? Haman is not god. There is only ONE G-d, and His name is Elohim. This is the theme of all three holidays, and whereas G-d is eternal in all His ways, man falls back to the dust, from which he came.

 

[Rabbi]

Regarding Original sin…

You have to ask yourself: if everyone inherits sin, what makes Jesus any different? So what’s up with the Immaculate Conception? They call Mary the “Mother of Grace,” and it’s now a holiday on December 8th, but it wasn’t always this way. You see, the victors were time.

The Dominican Order (following in the footsteps of Thomas Aquinas) were opposed to the thought of Mary being free of sin, which contrasted the Franciscan Order led by John Duns Scotus. To end the bickering, Pope Sixtus IV issued a decree in 1483: he’d silence both groups as heretics if they didn’t quit. It took till 1854 before the case was opened again, and Mary, expedited of all sin.

But now there’s a problem… because Mary, we know, was born by the natural process like all of us, yet, G-d was willing to forgive all her sins just like that. If its that easy… well… why send Jesus at all? Why not just save time and energy and forgive everyone the way He did Mary?

I’m looking forward to your response, and let me know if I misunderstand anything.

 

[AlNg]

I’m looking forward to your response

if everyone inherits sin, what makes Jesus any different?

Of course, the Jewish teaching is that there is One G-d, and G-d is one Person, not three Persons in One Being. But I think you know that Catholics believe in the Trinity. The Catholic teaching is that Jesus is the second Person of the Blessed Trinity and that makes Him different from other men.
I hope that Jews and Catholics can work together on peace, charity and making the world a better place. However, it appears that in some areas the two religions are incompatible. I don’t think that this incompatibility is something that G-d wants, but that is what we are faced with, and I don’t see it changing.

 

[Rabbi]

I agree, only through peace and understanding can we make this world a better place.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

You have to ask yourself: if everyone inherits sin, what makes Jesus any different? So what’s up with the Immaculate Conception?

The teaching of the Immaculate Conception is unrelated to Jesus. Jesus was without sin, as God cannot sin. Jesus is the Son, the second divine person in the Holy Trinity that we profess, although you don’t accept. A God sinning is not God at all, only an idol, a carved image of abomination to worship.

Mary, we know, was born by the natural process like all of us, yet, G-d was willing to forgive all her sins just like that. If its that easy… well… why send Jesus at all? Why not just save time and energy and forgive everyone the way He did Mary?

This is a misconception. Mary was not forgiven because she did not have any sin to forgive. She was 100% clean of every possible fault or sin. The Immaculate Conception is an affirmed truth stating the absolute purity of the Mother of God. This is an alien concept in Judaism, because women in the Old Testament stories tend to be annoying and demanding, being a pain in the neck for their husbands. Eve went so far that she enticed Adam to eat the bad apple as Satan desired them to do in the form of a serpent.