Why do Churches Continue to Purchase OCP Material?

[smndtupidisaftr]

First of all, there are no real alternatives. The other major publisher, GIA, is just as bad. There are all-traditional hymnals such as Adoremus but they contain no contemporary music at all. While I signed the pledge to not sing H, H and S, all contemporary music isn’t as bad as what those three write. Even the OCP publications include contemporary music by Bernadette Farrel and Matt Maher, for example, who are pretty inoffensive for contemporary composers.

I don’t know these people specifically, but it makes me think of someone like Kevin Allen who writes music in a traditional style. It would be nice to see his music in a hymnal along with traditional hymns.

Still, right now, if my choice is between all traditional and no contemporary, or all contemporary (including bad music) and no traditional, then I’m going to go with the former. But you’re right that not all contemporary music is bad, it’s just that most of what we’re exposed to in contemporary music is.

 

[Corki]

Still, right now, if my choice is between all traditional and no contemporary,** or all contemporary (including bad music) and no traditional**, then I’m going to go with the former. But you’re right that not all contemporary music is bad, it’s just that most of what we’re exposed to in contemporary music is.

The problem is that OCP, at least the Breaking Bread hymnal that my parish uses, has BOTH contemporary and traditionsl. It even has the Latin text for a few hymns. In fact, the bigger problem with the OCP offerings is not the bad contemporary music but what they do to the traditional hymns. As pointed out earlier in this thread, Christmas was particularly painful this year. Almost all the “standards” had undergone a PC overhaul. The sad thing is that this probably alienated E&C Catholics as well as traditionalists since the words they knew were butchered.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

The problem is that OCP, at least the Breaking Bread hymnal that my parish uses, has BOTH contemporary and traditionsl. It even has the Latin text for a few hymns.

For how many, like 2? Adoro and Ubi Caritas? Yes, there are traditional hymns, but how could an OF Mass in Latin ever get off the ground with that kind of selection?

In fact, the bigger problem with the OCP offerings is not the bad contemporary music but what they do to the traditional hymns. As pointed out earlier in this thread, Christmas was particularly painful this year. Almost all the “standards” had undergone a PC overhaul. The sad thing is that this probably alienated E&C Catholics as well as traditionalists since the words they knew were butchered.

Which is another reason I’d rather use the other hymnals even with their flaws. At least they offer all of the sung propers and graduals. You wouldn’t even know these existed or that the Church has provided words for music for each Mass with the OCP works.

So what is the best solution for parishes today? I’d say go with one of the alternatives just for the fact that the selection does not include the silly songs.

 

[Elizium23]

The good news is that the publishing houses have apparently discerned a demand for better quality material and have responded with new offerings and new editions. In the past couple of years, we have seen Adoremus offering a new revised edition, based on the new translation. I purchased a copy of this for myself (which immediately cursed both of my choirs to immediately eliminate it from repertoire…) and we have seen the genesis of Simple English Propers, the Vatican II Hymnal, and the Lumen Christi Missal, all offering solid fare with good doctrine and official approbation entirely appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Contemporary dreck has established a tenacious foothold in widespread usage, so I am afraid we will never see a dramatic change in our lifetime, but it’s all brick by brick

 

[Corki]

For how many, like 2? Adoro and Ubi Caritas? Yes, there are traditional hymns, but how could an OF Mass in Latin ever get off the ground with that kind of selection?

It’s a lot more than that. Traditional hymns doesn’t just mean the ones in Latin. We usually sing one or two traditional hymns every Sunday.

If a parish wanted to offer an OF in Latin, they would need a whole lot more than a few more Latin hymns. The OCP missalette only has the Latin prayers in the Spanish section and only a portion of them. A hynbal isn’t supposed to fulfill the needs of all of the prayers at Mass - just the hymns.

Which is another reason I’d rather use the other hymnals even with their flaws. At least they offer all of the sung propers and graduals. You wouldn’t even know these existed or that the Church has provided words for music for each Mass with the OCP works.

That’s a good point but, again, those are more properly found in a missal than a hymnal.

So what is the best solution for parishes today? I’d say go with one of the alternatives just for the fact that the selection does not include the silly songs

But neither do they include any contemporary songs. Contemporary does not equal bad. So, for most parishes, you would have a hymnal that was great for one or two Masses every Sunday but that had to be supplemented with “worship aids” or a second hymnal. Just the expense of that would be a reason for many parishes to avoid that route.

 

[superamazingman]

The majority or minority may be right or wrong. That is irrelevant. The Church is not a modern American-style democracy subject to the tastes of the laity. It has a hieracrchy of authority and competence. As a layperson one of my tasks is to trust those who have competence in these areas. Pators. Bishops. Music directors.
This is a forever and always issue, not a post-conciliar issue.

All I was trying to say is that we shouldn’t assume that something is right because the majority do it.

 

[anp1215]

I think there should be another hymnal poll thread. There was one a while back. I hear a lot about OCP and how it seems to be all over the place, but I’ve really not encountered it much. I regularly attend two parishes, and they both use Gather. I’ve been to Mass occasionally at another parish that I believe uses OCP’s “Glory and Praise” and my goddaughter was baptized at a parish with a large Hispanic community where I saw “Flor y Canto” (that’s OCP also I believe). That sums up my very brief experience with OCP. Now, I am not a well-traveled Catholic, and I’ve only attended Mass in a few places, so that could be why I haven’t encountered it much. I would like to create a hymnal poll (Which hymnal does your parish use?) but I don’t know the names of all the prominent hymnals.

 

[superamazingman]

I think there should be another hymnal poll thread. There was one a while back. I hear a lot about OCP and how it seems to be all over the place, but I’ve really not encountered it much. I regularly attend two parishes, and they both use Gather. I’ve been to Mass occasionally at another parish that I believe uses OCP’s “Glory and Praise” and my goddaughter was baptized at a parish with a large Hispanic community where I saw “Flor y Canto” (that’s OCP also I believe). That sums up my very brief experience with OCP. Now, I am not a well-traveled Catholic, and I’ve only attended Mass in a few places, so that could be why I haven’t encountered it much. I would like to create a hymnal poll (Which hymnal does your parish use?) but I don’t know the names of all the prominent hymnals.

I think it also depends on what the diocese uses and pushes. my diocese around here seems to be more GIA-based.

 

[10thCrusader]

After years of enduring OCP music in the Mass, which rendered every Mass as truly “penitential,” I came to the conclusion that OCP is a charitable institution that provides meaningful work to hack songwriters that would be otherwise unemployed.

Unfortunately, bad taste is not a mortal sin, so I really don’t see any end in sight for the “Sing a New Church” trend. They think they are appealing to the youth by dishing out this schmaltzy stuff, but really, most of the people I see gravitating to it are the old blue-hairs in stretch pants. None of the young people are fooled into thinking they’re at a rock concert.

I now attend the EF Solemn High Mass, and we get a healthy dose of Gregorian chant and High Renaissance polyphony (Palestrina, Victoria, Byrd, etc.)… and guess where all the young people are? Yep, right next to me in the pews.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

After years of enduring OCP music in the Mass, which rendered every Mass as truly “penitential,” I came to the conclusion that OCP is a charitable institution that provides meaningful work to hack songwriters that would be otherwise unemployed.

True, but it also shows how society’s standards have fallen when people actually applaud this music after Mass.

Unfortunately, bad taste is not a mortal sin, so I really don’t see any end in sight for the “Sing a New Church” trend. They think they are appealing to the youth by dishing out this schmaltzy stuff, but really, most of the people I see gravitating to it are the old blue-hairs in stretch pants. None of the young people are fooled into thinking they’re at a rock concert.

The greatest resistance in my parish to replacing OCP with a traditional hymnal comes from an organist born in the 1920’s and a 60-something choir director who are firmly convinced that hymns resembling 1970’s commercial jingles will somehow reach out to today’s youth.

 

[pnewton]

To the OCP hymnals? Hymns with theologically questionable lyrics (Sing a New Church, for instance). The sung propers of the Mass are not included, only the spoken propers. And in general, just poor song selection. Plus, disposable hymnals are a waste of money compared to hymnals that contain all the readings so you don’t have to replace them.

OCP is still in business because the opinions of Catholics here at CAF, especially the “squeaky wheels” are not reflective of Catholic in most of the country, most of which like OCP. Those that like traditionalism type of spirituality, though vocal here, are in a minority among Catholics.

No, insulting all other Catholics as being less knowledgable, or not believing the Real Presence, does little to endear anyone to tolerance. There is no need to feed the “holier than thou” stereotype.

 

[poche]

Maybe a welalthy donor could offer in the purchase of alternate hymnals. Remember, when making your offer, be positive and respectful of the other people around you.

 

[Cat]

OCP is still in business because the opinions of Catholics here at CAF, especially the “squeaky wheels” are not reflective of Catholic in most of the country, most of which like OCP. Those that like traditionalism type of spirituality, though vocal here, are in a minority among Catholics.

No, insulting all other Catholics as being less knowledgable, or not believing the Real Presence, does little to endear anyone to tolerance. There is no need to feed the “holier than thou” stereotype.

Thank you for saying this. I agree.

If someone would actually LOOK at the OCP material, they will see plenty of traditional material in the hymnals and missallettes. It’s not OCP that’s forcing parishes to sing “contemporary music,” it’s the music ministers and priests who make the choices of Mass music. If anyone truly has a problem with contemporary music, make an appointment with the music minister or priest and state your case in person.

As for the poster who states that the young people are all sitting beside him at the EF, that’s wonderful for him, but this is definitely NOT the case in our city, which has had EF Mass for many years. The young people are not flocking to it, neither are they begging for more traditional music. The young people have the opportunity to sing in the schola offered by the EF parish, but they are not joining it.

Quite the opposite–many of the young Catholics in our area are flocking to the non-denominational megachurch to hear the excellent Christian rock music (done by a professional band), or they’re attending the massive youth group meetings (1000+ teenagers attend) offered by the large Assemblies of God church to hear music that is all rock and done by excellent amateurs.

 

[clem456]

Thank you for saying this. I agree.

As for the poster who states that the young people are all sitting beside him at the EF, that’s wonderful for him, but this is definitely NOT the case in our city, which has had EF Mass for many years. The young people are not flocking to it, neither are they begging for more traditional music. The young people have the opportunity to sing in the schola offered by the EF parish, but they are not joining it.

Yes, you read here frequently that going back to the EF is energizing the Catholic population, and I just have to ask, “where is this?” I have been Catholic for 52 years and have never heard one person, not one, ever, ask to “go back” to the way it was (other than on this forum). Or ask for Latin to come back. Not one. Ever. In fact if a discussion of Latin ever does come up it is with rolled eyes and snorts of amusement that we ever had Mass in Latin. These things are not even remotely on the radar for 99% of Catholics in the real world, at least where I have lived.

Quite the opposite–many of the young Catholics in our area are flocking to the non-denominational megachurch to hear the excellent Christian rock music (done by a professional band), or they’re attending the massive youth group meetings (1000+ teenagers attend) offered by the large Assemblies of God church to hear music that is all rock and done by excellent amateurs.

That’s the way it is. We have the exact same challenge. Many Catholics of all ages have left our parish for a large mega non-denom that has 50 greeters and coffee at the door, praise and worship music, and what they consider “relevant” sermons. Does anyone think these folks will come back to the Church for Latin hymns and Mass parts? Really? Good luck with that effort, you’re going to need it.

I personally do not prefer modern music at Mass. I like the more ancient stuff.
But I also think the vernacular Mass is the best way to go. But Latin would be no problem for me, if the church wants it.
But here’s the thing… my opinion on these issues is irrelevant. In the area of re-evangelizing some of these people there are much deeper issues to tackle than finding a hymnal to please a small part of the Catholic population… Preaching a bold and honest Catholic message for starters.

 

[SMHW]

I’ll just come out and say it: I am a fan of Bob Hurd.

Bob Hurd is perhaps the first of the well known composers associated with OCP. And I’ve been a fan since before there was an OCP. I know I am not the only one because I know plenty of people who are not involved in parish music who like his music.

(While OCP hymnals include many of the Haugen and Haas compositions it is actually GIA that holds the copyright. Schutte --and his fellow St Louis Jesuits-- were originally North American Liturgy Resources which was not acquired by OCP until 1994.)

The reason OCP hymnals include so many of the compositions for which it does not hold the copyright is because there is a demand for them. Likewise, the reason GIA hymnals include many compositions for which they do not hold the copyrights is because there is a demand for those songs.

Now the fact that I (or anyone else) likes certain kinds of music or certain composers is not reason enough for parishes to purchase hymnals. But it is still a reason that parishes chose hymnals. And if the parish (for whatever reason) chooses OCP hymnals then it is reasonable to think that they are making use of the supplemental materials that OCP provides. For better or for worse, the law of supply and demand doesn’t go away just because something will be used for Mass.

My prediction is that you will start seeing OCP and GIA including “contemporary English chant” in their hymnals in the next few years.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Thank you for saying this. I agree.

If someone would actually LOOK at the OCP material, they will see plenty of traditional material in the hymnals and missallettes. It’s not OCP that’s forcing parishes to sing “contemporary music,” it’s the music ministers and priests who make the choices of Mass music. If anyone truly has a problem with contemporary music, make an appointment with the music minister or priest and state your case in person.

As for the poster who states that the young people are all sitting beside him at the EF, that’s wonderful for him, but this is definitely NOT the case in our city, which has had EF Mass for many years. The young people are not flocking to it, neither are they begging for more traditional music. The young people have the opportunity to sing in the schola offered by the EF parish, but they are not joining it.

Quite the opposite–many of the young Catholics in our area are flocking to the non-denominational megachurch to hear the excellent Christian rock music (done by a professional band), or they’re attending the massive youth group meetings (1000+ teenagers attend) offered by the large Assemblies of God church to hear music that is all rock and done by excellent amateurs.

Cat, I think you hit the nail on the head. It happens around here all the time. The youth just love the Mega churches’ youth groups. The Baptists and the AOG and some non-denom churches have large thriving youth groups. They definitely are not flocking to the EF, which is rare around here anyway.

What is on this forum in no way represents the average Catholic parish in America.

 

[TCCOV]

My prediction is that you will start seeing OCP and GIA including “contemporary English chant” in their hymnals in the next few years.

I agree. However, that is not to say that the overarching issue driving that shift will be an acknowledgement of church legislation that demands the form of “chant” be provided “first place” among those used at worship. Like SMHW, I also have endorsed the majority of Bob Hurd’s (whom I consider a personal friend) catalogue from his post FEL days as fit for sacred worship. And it was a shame that outside of the namesake song “Ubi caritas” OCP failed miserably to market the larger objective of Missa Ubi Caritas, in which Bob’s creative vision was well ahead of the curve. Now that’s water under the bridge, except for the fact that OCP and the others are still market driven, and supply and demand in our “profession” is more represented by the LAREConvention than a CMAA Colloquium or St. John Cantius/Adoremus seminar.
The overarching issue is one of Intellectual Property and copyrights, and the attending issue of licensing and marketing. OCP could simply “raid” the Creative Commons work of folks like Jeff Ostrowski, Adam Bartlett, Aristotle Esquerra, Arlene Oost Zinner and Richard Rice and reprint large portions of their homegrown product catalogues, but their raison d’etre and reputation would greatly suffer in that decision and process. Other lesser league enterprises such as LitPress with Anthony Ruff and Paul Ford would also likely be frozen out of collaboration because they have their own corporate needs to attend. So, OCP/GIA/WLP will have one big wager like the one they faced back in '98/'99- do we make a paradigm shift (then it was Youth Praise and Worship, ie. Spirit and Song et al) towards quasi or faux-chant by pre-eminently known and marketable writers? And will that be embraced by the vast multitudes of congregations obligated by pastors who will not break the convenience of the pulp missal/hymnal convention? In other words, are congregations that have sung Respond and Acclaim refrain responsorials for decades going to shift on a dime to chanted versions by Oost Zinner, Weber or Ostrowski, much less whatever a Bob Hurd or Scott Soper would come up with?

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Yes, you read here frequently that going back to the EF is energizing the Catholic population, and I just have to ask, “where is this?” I have been Catholic for 52 years and have never heard one person, not one, ever, ask to “go back” to the way it was (other than on this forum). Or ask for Latin to come back. Not one. Ever. In fact if a discussion of Latin ever does come up it is with rolled eyes and snorts of amusement that we ever had Mass in Latin. These things are not even remotely on the radar for 99% of Catholics in the real world, at least where I have lived.

That’s the way it is. We have the exact same challenge. Many Catholics of all ages have left our parish for a large mega non-denom that has 50 greeters and coffee at the door, praise and worship music, and what they consider “relevant” sermons. Does anyone think these folks will come back to the Church for Latin hymns and Mass parts? Really? Good luck with that effort, you’re going to need it.

I personally do not prefer modern music at Mass. I like the more ancient stuff.
But I also think the vernacular Mass is the best way to go. But Latin would be no problem for me, if the church wants it.
But here’s the thing… my opinion on these issues is irrelevant. In the area of re-evangelizing some of these people there are much deeper issues to tackle than finding a hymnal to please a small part of the Catholic population… Preaching a bold and honest Catholic message for starters.

If success is based solely on attendance, then we’re missing the point. I could get great attendance by opening a bar, but I will not have accomplished anything. The point is, these mega-churches may be attracting huge numbers, but are they really converting anyone? The standard of judgment must be the success at conversion.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Thank you for saying this. I agree.

If someone would actually LOOK at the OCP material, they will see plenty of traditional material in the hymnals and missallettes. It’s not OCP that’s forcing parishes to sing “contemporary music,” it’s the music ministers and priests who make the choices of Mass music. If anyone truly has a problem with contemporary music, make an appointment with the music minister or priest and state your case in person.

Plenty? How many chants are in the book?

Quite the opposite–many of the young Catholics in our area are flocking to the non-denominational megachurch to hear the excellent Christian rock music (done by a professional band), or they’re attending the massive youth group meetings (1000+ teenagers attend) offered by the large Assemblies of God church to hear music that is all rock and done by excellent amateurs.

I think it proves the point that music is important, and by changing our music to sound like that hasn’t accomplished anything because people demand good music, not the certain style that is popular. Bad music is bad music. A lot of good would probably come from reinvigorating the musical competence of our musicians.

 

[clem456]

If success is based solely on attendance, then we’re missing the point. I could get great attendance by opening a bar, but I will not have accomplished anything. The point is, these mega-churches may be attracting huge numbers, but are they really converting anyone? The standard of judgment must be the success at conversion.

That’s exactly the point.
The discusssion started with the idea that a certain form of Mass is attracts more young attendance.