Why do Churches Continue to Purchase OCP Material?

[smndtupidisaftr]

That’s exactly the point.
The discusssion started with the idea that a certain form of Mass is attracts more young attendance.

But attendance is not the same as conversion. If someone is going to church services or Mass just out of routine or because they like the music, then they’re missing the point, and nothing has been accomplished. If people are leaving the Church because the music is bad, then it means that something else is missing. The sacrifice, the mystery, and the reverence are probably lacking as well. I’d argue that this, rather than the music, is what is turning people away from the Church. If you don’t have these things, well then what exactly are you doing?

 

[clem456]

But attendance is not the same as conversion. If someone is going to church services or Mass just out of routine or because they like the music, then they’re missing the point, and nothing has been accomplished.

Exactly. I guess we agree, although I think you believe we do not?

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Exactly. I guess we agree, although I think you believe we do not?

I guess I just misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[pnewton]

If success is based solely on attendance, then we’re missing the point. I could get great attendance by opening a bar, but I will not have accomplished anything. The point is, these mega-churches may be attracting huge numbers, but are they really converting anyone? The standard of judgment must be the success at conversion.

However,

“Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ” - Romans 10:17

Now we can also go a step further and speak of lasting conversion, sanctity, reverence, etc. If we go too far though we will quickly find ourselves judging the hearts of other based on nothing more substantial than the type of music at a parish.

I think there is a balance between being all things to all people, as St. Paul wrote as a method of evangelism, and preserving our Catholic heritage. If you read the Church documents, this balance has always been represented, though it varies depending on the time, context and emphasis. I was pleased when the new translation came thorugh many of the previous problems addressed were corrected (Agnus Dei, e.g.). I think this gives hope that the publishers that have not given our music heritage its due do listen to the Church and can change. As much as I hate to say this, I look at it as more likely that OCP and GIA will include more chant than that Adoremus will include more contemporary music.

I personally wish one of the publishers would strike a better balance.

 

[superamazingman]

They definitely are not flocking to the EF, which is rare around here anyway.

Do you see the logical incoherence in this statement?

 

[10thCrusader]

They definitely are not flocking to the EF, which is rare around here anyway.

Exactly! They are hardly going to “flock” to the EF Mass if it’s not available or they are not aware of it.

In Seattle that’s not the case: It is available every day here. And the quality of music is definitely a cut above the usual “Gather Us In” fare. Here is an example of the music at the Sunday Solemn High Mass:
youtube.com/watch?v=d6S1GEh_xOw

The sound quality on this cut could be better, but you get the idea.

BTW, it was really packed today. I could barely find a place to park…

 

[Sarabande]

Exactly! They are hardly going to “flock” to the EF Mass if it’s not available or they are not aware of it.

In Seattle that’s not the case: It is available every day here. And the quality of music is definitely a cut above the usual “Gather Us In” fare. Here is an example of the music at the Sunday Solemn High Mass:
youtube.com/watch?v=d6S1GEh_xOw

The sound quality on this cut could be better, but you get the idea.

BTW, it was really packed today. I could barely find a place to park…

This was very nice. I just got back from the Seattle area and was so impressed by my family’s parish in Bremerton, which I never expected to see. They have a young pastor who was so engaging and very nice. They actually “sing” the mass, in terms of singing mostly the propers (hymns appear to be secondary… not that I dislike hymns. I enjoy many of them.) and well-attended. They also do an EF mass, I think twice a month. My uncle told me that he didn’t know how to chant anything until they started doing it at their parish. He didn’t realize that I knew how to chant and was aware of the propers, etc. and said to me before we went there, “This is a pretty conservative church. They do chant.” They have about 5 different choirs there. The parish also uses the St. Michael Hymnal and the Lumen Christi Missal.

 

[Usige]

OCP is still in business because the opinions of Catholics here at CAF, especially the “squeaky wheels” are not reflective of Catholic in most of the country, most of which like OCP. Those that like traditionalism type of spirituality, though vocal here, are in a minority among Catholics.

Just to be fair; the majority of Catholics I know either don’t care about the music or are completely unaware that their is other music available than OCP. I have rarely met a music director that actually polls their parish every year to ask what type of music they would prefer. Just because they don’t complain about it doesn’t mean they like it. Most could care less. I suspect there would be just as many squeeky wheels if you replaced “Breaking Bread” (or my new favorite to loath “Choose Christ”) with Adoremus; in other words very few.

If OCP is truly prefered over traditional music then why do we often see the Christmas Mass where Handle’s Messiah is sang before mass as being the most popular Mass by far? I can guarantee you people aren’t sitting through 2+ hours between Messiah and Mass just because it’s the best time available to them.

 

[clem456]

I have rarely met a music director that actually polls their parish every year to ask what type of music they would prefer. Just because they don’t complain about it doesn’t mean they like it. Most could care less.

The Church is not an American-style democracy. The music director has an area of competence that should be trusted. Ours has a degree in music performance with a minor in theology, plus 30+ years of experience. He should not bend and bow to individual clamorings for this taste and that. He should be trusted to be who he is.

It’s not true that people couldn’t care less. Are you part of a choir? Our music ministry is responsible for helping convert people. There are conversion stories related to the music we sing at Mass. Just because people aren’t complaining does not mean they are complacent.

 

[929dad]

My music choices for yesterday’s Mass. ALL came from OCP.

Entrance Chant: All People That on Earth Do Dwell (to the tune of The Old Hundreth)
Acclamations: Heritage Mass, all played on organ
Offertory: Open My Eyes
Communion Chant: Taste and See
Closing: Alleluia! Sing to Jesus

This is a pretty typical mix of genres for us. Can someone tell me what makes a publisher so bad when there options like this for the universal Church?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Although I’m quite musical, I have never been focused on a particular name or series of hymnals, so I’m not even aware that there was “revulsion” for the so-called “OCP.”

What causes revulsion in me, however, is non-musicality that passes for music. To the extent that this can be found (as Elizium and others have noted) in mass-produced Catholic hymnals, then the purpose of sacred music is being defeated. I cannot stand an attitude that assumes that most people are stupid, that most people cannot be inspired by great music, that most people can’t sing a note, that most people can’t learn music, that most people can’t be educated into quality religious music (whatever the style, whatever the language – I am not limiting that to a particular era or style). They will be eductaed into it when they are exposed to it, which those who purchase music, and those who are music ministers, should be in charge of providing.

IOW, I find dumbed-down hymnals to be insulting and counter-productive to liturgy and prayer. We hae a lot of dumbed-down music in the Roman Church, introduced and/or embraced by some very misguided people, i.m.o.

I find it odd that so often a music minister will select music “which the community already knows.” Hmmm. If that’s what the drill is, it is no wonder that the repertoire continues to be simplistic, monotonous, and even childish. It’s part of your job, music minister, to introduce to the community what the community does not “already know.” They’re incapable of learning? Everyone in the congregation has dementia? I doubt that.

One of the reasons people switch parishes is the music. That’s not because they wish to be entertained. It’s because of two things: (1) they understand & experience that music is powerful prayer; (2) they have experienced that bad music distracts.

 

[corsair]

The “hold” that OCP has on parishes is financial. They offer a fantastic deal to parishes to get them on the hook. Check out their costs and compare them to others.

I personally don’t like them or their materials.

Bremerton’s Our Lady Star of the Sea and its pastor are an amazing group. As is St. Thomas Aquinas parish in Camas, WA.

I hear good things about Kelso and Port Angeles, WA also.

 

[Sarabande]

The Church is not an American-style democracy. The music director has an area of competence that should be trusted. Ours has a degree in music performance with a minor in theology, plus 30+ years of experience. He should not bend and bow to individual clamorings for this taste and that. He should be trusted to be who he is.

I would agree with this. The only person the music director has to answer to is his boss - usually the pastor. If enough complaints come to the pastor and he asks the music director to change things, then he/she has to comply even if he/she doesn’t agree and doesn’t even like the music he is told to play. Otherwise, if the pastor does not direct him/her to change, the music director’s expertise is to be respected. If the pastor is not happy with the music director, he/she will be fired.

It’s not true that people couldn’t care less. Are you part of a choir? Our music ministry is responsible for helping convert people. There are conversion stories related to the music we sing at Mass. Just because people aren’t complaining does not mean they are complacent.

I think there is really a mix. I know people who truly couldn’t care less about the music at mass. It does nothing for them. In fact, some prefer no music at mass, even if the highest quality of musicianship and music is offered. Then there are people who will appreciate good, quality music and musicianship, but it’s not a big deal to them that their own parish does not offer it. Then there are people I know who though they really couldn’t care less, but then when they were exposed to high quality music and musicianship, they had a hard time going back and accepting what was given previously. But I think for most, it just isn’t as important as it is for some of us. They have their few favorites, if they like hymns, and that’s good enough for them. Nothing wrong with that. You can’t force people to love something more if they don’t care about it as much. It’s like me expecting someone who doesn’t really sing to understand how some singers and instrumentalists have these incredible spiritual ecstasies whenever they play their instrument or sing. Or someone not understanding why I didn’t care about the hockey lockout. Sure, I felt badly for my husband and other hockey fans because they missed out on games and such (and was happy for them when the lockout ended and do enjoy watching a good game now and then), but it didn’t affect me either way. I was fairly complacent about it, and I imagine that is how some people feel about the hymnals and music used for mass. Nice when it’s good quality, but also not really affected when it’s not so good. I would also venture to guess that most people don’t even pay attention to the names of publishing houses where their hymnals come from. It’s just a hymnal used at their Catholic parish and many parishes and that’s that. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Of course, for me, as a musician, I do care… a lot. I always try to give my utmost best because it is a prayer and if there are people out there who uses music for prayer, it will be very helpful for them. I tend to expect the same from everyone else, but I am also practical knowing that not all parishes have the means and abilities to give more than what they are currently rendering, so I don’t expect a Couperin organ composition or a motet by Victoria or a well-played/well-sung hymn. Although OCP hymnals aren’t ideal, you can find some decent and traditional hymns in them. It’s just a matter of using them.

 

[Sarabande]

The “hold” that OCP has on parishes is financial. They offer a fantastic deal to parishes to get them on the hook. Check out their costs and compare them to others.

I personally don’t like them or their materials.
**
Bremerton’s Our Lady Star of the Sea and its pastor are an amazing group**. As is St. Thomas Aquinas parish in Camas, WA.

I hear good things about Kelso and Port Angeles, WA also.

That was the parish I was at last week. I was fortunate to speak with the pastor afterwards. He was so lovely and down-to-earth and couldn’t be much older than me. (I’m in my mid-30s). I really was pleasantly surprised by that parish. My relatives are very fortunate to attend there.

 

[Usige]

The Church is not an American-style democracy. The music director has an area of competence that should be trusted. Ours has a degree in music performance with a minor in theology, plus 30+ years of experience. He should not bend and bow to individual clamorings for this taste and that. He should be trusted to be who he is.

It’s not true that people couldn’t care less. Are you part of a choir? Our music ministry is responsible for helping convert people. There are conversion stories related to the music we sing at Mass. Just because people aren’t complaining does not mean they are complacent.

My point is people can’t say most people love OCP if they don’t ask them.

No I am not currently in the choir. Why? Because I cannot raise my voice in joyful praise to the music chosen. I am a classically trained basso cantante that can also sing lyric basso profondo and spent about 10 years singing in both church and semiprofessional choirs. I also have training in chant, choral direction and music theory (started out in fine arts before realizing I couldn’t raise a family on it). Myself and 6 or 7 others offered to form the core of a traditional choir. We also offered to front the cost to purchase 200 - 250 copies of either the Adoramus or Vatican II hymnal. The music director said no. Why? Because the people in the current choirs like the contemporary stuff (each mass has a choir of 3-6 people). We have a contemporary praise and worship choir, two 70s folk bands, a youth choir, even a mariachi choir. Two masses have only a cantor. There is time, talent, and space for a traditional choir, but since the 12 - 15 current choir members like OCP we will reject those that want to raise their voices in praise to God.

While music can be used as a source of conversion for every story of someone converted I can probably give you a story of someone that hates the current music in many parishes. There is room for both and likely need for both. A good music director would realize that and take care of all those in the parish.

As for or pastor he pretty much falls in the doesn’t care category. When we had a transitional deacon that sang the mass during advent and lent 3 years ago he said he enjoyed to reminder of his youth. I asked why he didn’t sing the mass then and he laughed saying that he sounded like a bull frog under a car tire so he just goes with what he can find.

 

[revert_jen]

The Church is not an American-style democracy. The music director has an area of competence that should be trusted. Ours has a degree in music performance with a minor in theology, plus 30+ years of experience. He should not bend and bow to individual clamorings for this taste and that. He should be trusted to be who he is.

In my experience I would have to look at this a different way. Some music directors are great. The one at my current parish is. But my experience of other MDs is that frequently they have 30+ years of espousing ideas about music that are 30+ years old. And I’m afraid, given what I’ve heard about the state of many universities 30 years ago, sometimes a minor in theology may be a hinderance rather than a help.

As for the congregation, I’m very surprised that nobody here has mentioned what I think is the primary reason people don’t complain about the H/H/S-type music. They are familiar with it. They listened to it as children or as young adults, and they like it because they know it, and they know it because music directors have been making everyone sing it for 30+ years. Because of this, congregations like it. I personally (although I do have training and education enough to know good music from bad) like several pieces of “bad” music simply because they have pleasant memories attached to them. Without musical training, I would know that I liked them, but not that they are bad. And I would probably resent anyone saying that they were bad.

The answer to this is to very SLOWLY change the mix between bad music (and bad theology) and good music (whether new or old). I’m not talking over a matter of months, but over at least a decade, preferably longer. Gradually lessen the use of the hymns that are merely bad musically, and more quickly lessen (and then terminate) the use of hymns that are bad theologically. Start the young people learning more good music, so when they are sentimental about hymns later in life, they will be good hymns (and incidentally may help those with no musical training have a better instinct for good music).

But this requires a music director that wants to eliminate bad music and bad theology from the music at Mass. I’m afraid that even with music directors who understand the difference, I haven’t seen a lot of willingness to do this.

BTW, St. Michael Hymnal is primarily traditional, but does have modern hymns as well. You can check it all out here: stmichaelhymnal.com/NewEdition/Contents.aspx (Disclaimer: I have no connection with the publishers of the St. Michael Hymnal. )

–Jen

P.S. I like “God’s Blessing Sends Us Forth” but is anyone else a bit embarrassed when in verse 4 it talks about “this age of space?” How very… 1964. I think the Church does better when she tries to be timeless than when she tries to be timely.

 

[10thCrusader]

My music choices for yesterday’s Mass. ALL came from OCP.

Entrance Chant: All People That on Earth Do Dwell (to the tune of The Old Hundreth)
Acclamations: Heritage Mass, all played on organ
Offertory: Open My Eyes
Communion Chant: Taste and See
Closing: Alleluia! Sing to Jesus

This is a pretty typical mix of genres for us. Can someone tell me what makes a publisher so bad when there options like this for the universal Church?

Why is it, when they get to communion hymn, they almost always choose something that theologically horizontal, 1st person singular, and/or compositional schlock like Taste(less) and See? What is wrong with something more reverent and appropriate like “Let all mortal flesh keep silence” or “At the Lamb’s High Feast?”

They always do their worst on the communion hymn…

 

[pnewton]

. I have rarely met a music director that actually polls their parish every year to ask what type of music they would prefer. Just because they don’t complain about it doesn’t mean they like it. Most could care less. I suspect there would be just as many squeeky wheels if you replaced “Breaking Bread” (or my new favorite to loath “Choose Christ”) with Adoremus; in other words very few.

I don’t think I agree with this speculation. It goes contrarty to my own experience, which of course is limited. Yet even on the face is it only speculation that one can not possibly know one way or another.

I have polled the parish twice, btw. Every years seems a little weird and needy to me.

 

[pnewton]

The answer to this is to very SLOWLY change the mix between bad music (and bad theology) and good music (whether new or old). I’m not talking over a matter of months, but over at least a decade, preferably longer. Gradually lessen the use of the hymns that are merely bad musically, and more quickly lessen (and then terminate) the use of hymns that are bad theologically.

This is my thinking as well.

 

[pnewton]

Why is it, when they get to communion hymn, they almost always choose something that theologically horizontal, 1st person singular, and/or compositional schlock like Taste(less) and See?

I would agree with you that may of the communion hymns are theologically horizontal, and I never care much for those. I really don’t care a lot for “Taste and See”, but ironically, it is not horizontal. As to the grammer (first person, third person, second person, singular, plural) really never phazed me much. If we ever get down to the point where such mundane considerations are all that’s left, I think we will pretty much all be ready for Heaven.