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smndtupidisaftr
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How do you feel one should proceed with introducing chant? I wondered how people would react to something like Panis Angelicus.
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revert_jen
Guest
I think the point is that some people (myself included) feel uncomfortable singing entire songs “in God’s voice” with no quotation marks. As I recall, Taste and See doesn’t fall into this category–one example I remember is “I Am the Bread of Life.”
In fact, I am not the Bread of Life, and I will not raise you up. It feels awkward and wrong spending 4 minutes saying I am and I will. Christ is the Bread of Life and will raise you up. It’s not a grammatical concern (although I agree it looked like it from the quoted post) and it’s not minor or mundane. It’s that I really don’t like standing up and singing, in effect, “I am God.” We can all thank God that I am not.
–Jen
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Elizium23
Guest
Indeed. When the LORD is quoted in Sacred Scripture, it is invariably with an introductory phrase, such as “Thus says the LORD:” which sets apart the quote from anything the reader or narrator might claim as his own voice. Therefore, when a lector is reading, the meaning of a passage is always clear about who it is that is speaking.
[BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 48:17[/BIBLEDRB]
I believe that hymnody should also follow this convention if it is to be accepted. It just sounds wrong for a cantor, a choir, or a whole assembly of people to be singing “I am the Bread of Life…”
[BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 48:17[/BIBLEDRB]
I believe that hymnody should also follow this convention if it is to be accepted. It just sounds wrong for a cantor, a choir, or a whole assembly of people to be singing “I am the Bread of Life…”
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revert_jen
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My (unasked
) advice? Start with something simple, like an Ave Maria, and don’t go for solemn tone until some time in the unforeseeable future. At least if you are trying to have the congregation sing it. Of course if the congregation is used to singing one of the non-chant versions of Panis Angelicus in Latin (like the Lambilotte which is even in the OCP music issue, or used to be), then Panis Angelicus is just as good a choice. The point is to try to limit the strangeness by at least using a text that is somewhat familiar.The best thing in any case is to have the choir sing it alone (perhaps as a hymn after Communion, with the priest’s permission) a couple of times before having everyone sing it.
–Jen
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Sarabande
Guest
Yes, I can see how some people would feel uncomfortable with that. Although I know that many people like the melody for “I Am the Bread of Life” (although many can’t sing the refrain… too much is expected of them to hit the “high” note in that large of an interval on the long “a” sound no less, which most people will commonly close their throats trying to sing that), I sometimes do get weirded out when I think that I, a woman, am singing “in God’s voice” as you put it.I think the point is that some people (myself included) feel uncomfortable singing entire songs “in God’s voice” with no quotation marks. As I recall, Taste and See doesn’t fall into this category–one example I remember is “I Am the Bread of Life.”
In fact, I am not the Bread of Life, and I will not raise you up. It feels awkward and wrong spending 4 minutes saying I am and I will. Christ is the Bread of Life and will raise you up. It’s not a grammatical concern (although I agree it looked like it from the quoted post) and it’s not minor or mundane. It’s that I really don’t like standing up and singing, in effect, “I am God.” We can all thank God that I am not.
–Jen
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Sarabande
Guest
Depends on the parish. If they tend towards “traditional”, they might react favorably. What I’ve seen done at a few parishes, including one of the current ones I’m working in, is that they usually start with chanting the “Agnus Dei” from the Missa Jubilate Deo, then they move to the other parts of the mass. You can now find that with the English as well, if you think the parish wouldn’t take to Latin right away.
Starting slowly is almost always the best course, in my humble opinion. It’s also how other parishes have been successful with introducing chant and other kinds of new music.
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agapewolf
Guest
First person singular? which are a whole lot of psalms? and many of the actual communion antiphons for liturgies?Why is it, when they get to communion hymn, they almost always choose something that theologically horizontal, 1st person singular, and/or compositional schlock like Taste(less) and See? What is wrong with something more reverent and appropriate like “Let all mortal flesh keep silence” or “At the Lamb’s High Feast?”
They always do their worst on the communion hymn…
Taste and See is also a psalm.
You are defining reverence to your own preference here, and it doesn’t quite match the church’s
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YoungTradCath
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My experience, being in a parish with the usual tripe and with parishioners who don’t really care either way, is that our choir belts out a Latin Communion piece rather often, and no one cares. I like it. No one here sings the Offertories or Communions anyway, besides the choir, that is. Heck, no one here even sings the R. Psalms. The cantor sings it to himself. (I do not like R. Psalms anyway, I’d rather have a Gradual to meditate, since I spend half the Psalm wracking my brain to remember the response)My (unasked
The best thing in any case is to have the choir sing it alone (perhaps as a hymn after Communion, with the priest’s permission) a couple of times before having everyone sing it.
–Jen
Perhaps our musical situation is rather depressing, but I rather like it. I’d rather have no singing than bad singing.
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Brendan
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FYI, there is a new Archbishop appointed for Portland, Bishop Sample of Marquette MI
I know him well, in fact, I have assisted at an Orchestral Pontifical High Mass (EF) he celebrated in Detroit a few months ago
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10296114#post10296114
Photos of that Mass
te-deum.blogspot.com/2012/10/photos-solemn-high-pontifical-mass-with.html
I wonder what this will mean for OCP now.
I know him well, in fact, I have assisted at an Orchestral Pontifical High Mass (EF) he celebrated in Detroit a few months ago
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10296114#post10296114
Photos of that Mass
te-deum.blogspot.com/2012/10/photos-solemn-high-pontifical-mass-with.html
I wonder what this will mean for OCP now.
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pnewton
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Okay, if you feel that way, but you better not sign up to be a reader then. Music reflects the Scripture which is written in different tenses.
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
Hopefully they will contain the sung antiphons in the future so that we can actually sing the Mass as we are supposed to! The fact that we’ve been missing an integral part of the Mass for decades is shameful.
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revert_jen
Guest
I’m not sure what tenses have to do with it, but when you are reading scripture, and God says something, there are quotation marks around it, and frequently something like “And the Lord said to Moses…” For example, the corresponding scripture passage is, ‘Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life…”’ And the lector announces the scripture passage and everything. It’s not as if a lector just goes up and speaks as if s/he is God.
It’s a lot different from just standing there telling everyone that you are the bread of life, which is what happens in the song (which, BTW, doesn’t contain the name of Jesus anywhere). It’s not until verse 5 (which often gets skipped depending on how long people take for Communion) that there is any hint we are doing anything but singing about ourselves. Then in verse 5, all of a sudden “you” becomes Christ and “we” becomes people, whereas in the rest of the song, “you” is people and “I” refers to Christ. But then we switch back to singing the words of Christ in the first person for the final refrain… If you didn’t already know the Bible passage it would be very confusing. Even knowing the Bible passage, it makes some people (like me) uncomfortable. It’s not Scripture I’m uncomfortable with, it’s “almost scripture.”
–Jen
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agapewolf
Guest
if it were integral and shameful to not sing the antiphons, then the inclusion would be mandated in the girm, and it wouldn’t have other options.
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
GIRM makes these sung antiphons the first choice among options. I’m not saying the fact that they’re sometimes gone is shameful, I’m saying the fact that the first choice is essentially never done is shameful.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
This is like saying, for the EF, it is okay to just offer Low Masses every day and never offer a High or Solemn Mass when you know you are perfectly capable of doing it. The fact is, Gregorian Chant is preferred, is many times more appropriate, and has vastly more history in the Roman Rite than random hymns, hymns that often have little to no association to the day or the place they are used in Mass. I know that last bit is just bad planning, but if Propers were used, there wouldn’t need to be any planning! To not use them means: the choir is tragically desperate for skill, the choir is not fully educated in matters musical, or the parish favors liturgical minimalism. IMO it is usually a combination of the latter two.
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
It’s just as true with OF Masses, but at least most parishes will have the smells and bells for special occasions like Christmas and Easter. The antiphons have been ignored even for these holidays virtually everywhere.
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silicasandra
Guest
I get the criticism about singing “in God’s voice,” but “I Am the Bread of Life” is actually one of my favorite hymns - it usually brings me to tears. Even if I am one of the people singing, I am acutely aware that the words are not “mine.”
As a (fairly recent) convert, I am not very well schooled in Church music, but there are several contemporary hymns that, while not representing the best that the Church can offer in terms of music, still move laypeople, and for the right reasons, in ways that music that seems distant and inaccessible probably couldn’t - at least not right away.
I like this suggestion. It seems like that is what our parish is doing, and with appropriate catechesis I think people are beginning to appreciate the “traditional stuff” more. The music director usually uses liturgical season changes to introduce one or two new or different elements, and I think that is a good system (from my POV as a layperson who is not involved whatsoever in music ministry.)
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CatholicZ09
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One of the reasons why OCP is so popular and widely used is that they issue grants of up to $10,000 to certain parishes each year. More money for the parish, more money for OCP. It’s a win-win.
The problem is not really OCP missals/hymnals themselves. There can be bad songs/hymns in any hymnal, but it depends on what is picked for Mass. My parish uses OCP materials, yet we don’t pull out trite like Lord of the Dance or stuff like that. Granted, those might be some peoples’ favorites because due to the unique diversity of human nature, we all have different tastes.
OCP has been used at my parish for many of years. Why? The hymnals include many songs that Catholics today like. Even the older generations have become accustomed to You Are Mine and On Eagle’s Wings. Music evolves, and this does not exclude religious music. What music directors and committees need to do; however, is pick songs that are appropriate for the liturgy. No horizontal or overly-inclusive language, and no unsingable tunes, which can easily be said for traditional hymns and chants as well.
I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate, but OCP is not that bad. People make it out to look worse than it is. Just because it includes songs that you may not like does not make it the worst publisher in the world. OCP has done many good things for Catholics and non-Catholics, turning their minds and hearts to God. I’m an advocate of traditional hymns; I grew up with them; however, I like the contemporary music as well. OCP includes a variety, and most parishes are going to stick with what they think is the cheapest and best solution for their musical needs. OCP has proved to work for them, so why change?
The problem is not really OCP missals/hymnals themselves. There can be bad songs/hymns in any hymnal, but it depends on what is picked for Mass. My parish uses OCP materials, yet we don’t pull out trite like Lord of the Dance or stuff like that. Granted, those might be some peoples’ favorites because due to the unique diversity of human nature, we all have different tastes.
OCP has been used at my parish for many of years. Why? The hymnals include many songs that Catholics today like. Even the older generations have become accustomed to You Are Mine and On Eagle’s Wings. Music evolves, and this does not exclude religious music. What music directors and committees need to do; however, is pick songs that are appropriate for the liturgy. No horizontal or overly-inclusive language, and no unsingable tunes, which can easily be said for traditional hymns and chants as well.
I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate, but OCP is not that bad. People make it out to look worse than it is. Just because it includes songs that you may not like does not make it the worst publisher in the world. OCP has done many good things for Catholics and non-Catholics, turning their minds and hearts to God. I’m an advocate of traditional hymns; I grew up with them; however, I like the contemporary music as well. OCP includes a variety, and most parishes are going to stick with what they think is the cheapest and best solution for their musical needs. OCP has proved to work for them, so why change?
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smndtupidisaftr
Guest
The selection of Latin hymns is atrocious and the books themselves are aesthetically flat. The only art is on the front cover and it’s not good art, especially this year’s Breaking Bread.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
As the saying goes, this year’s BB art looks like a confetti factory exploded. It is utterly pointless.
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