Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[cheezey]

Isaiah45_9:

:thankyou:

I need that badly…

we now take you back to your regularly scheduled programming…

 

[jmcrae]

In my singular case, I have not professed my faith yet! You know the deacon only just got back to me??? The director only just called me TODAY!! It only been since NOVEMBER!!! and now it is too late for quickly. I have made my peace that this may happen only in my mind, because 2014 is a LONG time away.

Ergh. Keep writing for me, though. I 'm gonna PM you…

Not so long really. And getting shorter every day - the comment I keep hearing from those who have completed their year of Catechesis and are coming into their Purification is Wow, that was fast! But we have many who will still have to wait for next year because they were too impatient to complete the process this year. Stick with it!

 

[Telestia]

“Can be,” if God chooses to act outside of the Sacraments. That’s a pretty big “if.”

Not “will be.”

The word ‘Sacraments’ does not even appear in the New Testament, even once.

However, from the NT, from Ephesians 2:1-10

2.1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

jmcrae, this scripture clearly explained that through faith [of Jesus] I have been saved, not of myself, I am saved, but not as the results of works, such as doing sacraments or keeping all the Mosaic Laws that would have been applied to me if I were under the Mosaic Covenant, or to be saved by any other works, but rather, it is a genuine gift to me from God, so that no one, including me, may boast, for we are His workmanship to all who believe God on These terms.

allow me to fully explain my secured salvation through Jesus finished work on the cross.

Ephesians:

Lets break that paragraph down in its’ proper order.

**4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. **

God knew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world [cosmos], and that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
And this God freely bestowed upon us in Jesus.

**7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace **

In Jesus we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of our sins, by His rich graces we are redeemed

**8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight **

It’s a gift to us, well planned out before time.

**9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him **

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
According to God’s timing and plan etc.

**11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, **

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God’s will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus’s message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised us (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus’s pledge (Security down payment) of my inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus’s acquisition of me unto the praise of His glory.

I do have assurance of my salvation, it is a gift to me from God. I did not earn so that I can boast, but I humbly praise God for this gift of life, the life abundant and good.

And though I wrote above ‘I’ and ‘me’, it applies to all who accept God’s terms receive this gift of good Life, the abundant life.

 

[cheezey]

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus’s pledge (Security down payment) of our inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus’s acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.

I do have assurance of my salvation, it is a gift to me from God. I did not earn so that I can boast, but I humbly praise God for this gift of life, the life abundant and good.

I’d like to use this as a signature…
You, of course, would get the credit.

 

[CopticChristian]

The word ‘Sacraments’ does not even appear in the New Testament, even once.

However, from the NT, from Ephesians 2:1-10

2.1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

jmcrae, this scripture clearly explained that through faith [of Jesus] I have been saved, not of myself, I am saved, but not as the results of works, such as doing sacraments or keeping all the Mosaic Laws that would have been applied to me if I were under the Mosaic Covenant, or to be saved by any other works, but rather, it is a genuine gift to me from God, so that no one, including me, may boast, for we are His workmanship to all who believe God on These terms.

allow me to fully explain my secured salvation through Jesus finished work on the cross.

Ephesians:

Lets break that paragraph down in its’ proper order.

**4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. **

God knew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world [cosmos], and that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
And this God freely bestowed upon us in Jesus.

**7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace **

In Jesus we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of our sins, by His rich graces we are redeemed

**8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight **

It’s a gift to us, well planned out before time.

**9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him **

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
According to God’s timing and plan etc.

**11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, **

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God’s will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus’s message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised us (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus’s pledge (Security down payment) of our inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus’s acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.

I do have assurance of my salvation, it is a gift to me from God. I did not earn so that I can boast, but I humbl praise God for this gift of life, the life abundant and good.

Telestia,

Sacrament is an oath…

Words like

Altar Call
Bible
New Testament
Mens groups
Pot Luck
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
do not appear in the Bible either and I am sure that there are more…

This is a thread you can look over concerning this…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=15852

Protestant Beliefs Not in the Bible

· Sanctity of life – life begins at conception
· Monogamy – John Milton and Martin Luther both taught it was okay to be polygamous
· The closure of public revelation
· The Trinity
· The canon of scripture – the word Bible doesn’t even appear in the Bible
· Tithing 10%
· The office of the Pastor
· Jesus pre-existence
· Sola scriptura
·· All sin is equal
· Just war
· Age of accountability
· Slain in the spirit

 

[Telestia]

I’d like to use this as a signature…
You, of course, would get the credit.

Fine, but do not credit me, it is from scripture, from God. And I’m thankful He loved me, and loves you too.

 

[Telestia]

Telestia,

Sacrament is an oath…

Words like

Altar Call
Bible
New Testament
Mens groups
Pot Luck
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
do not appear in the Bible either and I am sure that there are more…

This is a thread you can look over concerning this…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=15852

Protestant Beliefs Not in the Bible

That’s why I am not a ‘protestant’. I am an evangelical Christian.

 

[cheezey]

Fine, but do not credit me, it is from scripture, from God. And I’m thankful He loved me, and loves you too.

Oh bother, that is one bad oopsy on my part. I thought that that was a paraphrasing…oh, I just can’t say.

 

[Telestia]

Oh bother, that is one bad oopsy on my part. I thought that that was a paraphrasing…oh, I just can’t say.

Don’t blush. The idea is not mine. It is from scripture. I did paraphrase, use it as you wish, and you can assign it to me if you wish. Perhaps you could add ‘not’ before the word “Boast”, So that it reads - I can not boast.

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s why I am not a ‘protestant’. I am an evangelical Christian.

Telestia,

May I ask the name of the type of church you attend so I may see the statement of Faith?

May I ask ihow many books the Bible you read has in it?

May I ask if you believe that the Bible is the sole authority for you?

 

[PRmerger]

The word ‘Sacraments’ does not even appear in the New Testament, even once.

Perhaps. But the concept of Sacraments is on EVERY page of the entire Bible.

Incidentally, why does the word have to appear in the NT for you to believe it? Where is that found in Scripture that it has to appear at least once in the NT for you to believe it?

 

[pablope]

The word ‘Sacraments’ does not even appear in the New Testament, even once.

Hmm…Telestia…where does it say in the Bible a word has to be in the Bible to believe it?

You describe yourself as evangelical…does this word appear in the Bible?

So why do you believe in evangelicalism if it is not in the Bible?

I do have assurance of my salvation, it is a gift to me from God. I did not earn so that I can boast, but I humbly praise God for this gift of life, the life abundant and good.

 

[guanophore]

Merge says Itwin is Sarcastic and weak

This is ad hominem - against the man. PR was talking about his statement, and that it represented a weak point of argument. You reframed it so it was about him.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is ad hominem - against the man. PR was talking about his statement, and that it represented a weak point of argument. You reframed it so it was about him.

My dear oblate,

You are correct…It was a typo…insofar as the summary was not intended to indicate that the person was weak rather the argument…no problem…

It should have read…

Merge says Itwin’s argument is weak…

 

[guanophore]

While the context of the statement you view as out of context, the sentiment is consistent with many modern views and in that sense may be out of context if read in context however the statement can stand alone.

Coptic, have you been hitting the nightcaps a little hard?

No, the polemics of the Reformation, and the statements in Exsurge Domine cannot be applied to modern Protestants.

 What violations of the teachings of the Church is your perception leading you to believe that this is true?

The one I posted from the catechism, that says our separated brethren are not to be charged with the sin of separation. I inserted the link, so you can read the context.

I agree that Itwin is responding to a call from God.

If you believe this, then it seems to me that posting polemics as you have done is counterproductive.

The statement from Exsurge Domine was addressed to you and while you percieve and categorize it as a fling, it was typed.

I think you were posting it with regard to Itwin.

If you were addressing it to me then…I don’t know what to say about that.

It comes across as though you are throwing stones and being deliberately adversarial.

You are not sure, that is sure. What I mean is what I said. Judgements about our own thinking can cause our judgements to be swayed while we think. Think about it.

I think you were aiming the quote from ED at Itwin, rather uncharitably.

This would be your inference.

Indeed, I have reached it by the context of your exchange.

You know my expectations? I have words I will share with Itwin as to my expectations that may cause you to judge your thinking as it concerns your belief you know my expectations.

Only insofar as you have represented them here. You have been quite forceful that Itwin should become Catholic.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’d like to use this as a signature…
You, of course, would get the credit.

Cheezey,

This is an important point as you head towards RCIA to become Catholic. Too many “I used to be Catholic and now I am Christian” or “I used to be Catholic and now I have Jesus” or " I used to be Catholic and now I found Yeshua" are the result of poor Catechiesis.

The Catholic Church has always taught that God calls, you respond and even the response is the work of God…Salvation is a work of God from start to finish…on our own we can do nothing…this was stated at the Council of Orange and reaffirmed at the Council of Trent and is now part of the Catholic Catechism…

Council of Orange (529 AD)
Canons 4-8

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him “unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3).

CONTINUED

 

[guanophore]

The word 'Sacraments' does not even appear in the New Testament, even once.

Quite right, Telestia. Neither does the list of books that belong in that NT, or the term “hypostatic union”, or the word Trinity, or the command to worship on Sunday, etc, etc. The celebration of the birth of Jesus on Dec. 25th, either. Do you celebrate Christmas?

However, from the NT, from Ephesians 2:1-10

2.1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

this scripture clearly explained that through faith [of Jesus] I have been saved, not of myself, I am saved, but not as the results of works, such as doing sacraments or keeping all the Mosaic Laws that would have been applied to me if I were under the Mosaic Covenant, or to be saved by any other works, but rather, it is a genuine gift to me from God, so that no one, including me, may boast, for we are His workmanship to all who believe God on These terms.

seemed to be misinformed about the Sacraments. They are not “works”, but avenues of grace in which we encounter Christ.

If someone told you that grace and glory was pouring over a waterfall, would you not stand under it?

allow me to fully explain my secured salvation through Jesus finished work on the cross.

It’s a gift to us, well planned out before time.

Yes, Telestia. The book of Ephesians, like the rest of the NT, was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. There is nothing in these verses that is inconsistent with Catholicism. This is hard for you to understand because you have been misled about the Catholic faith. But, you have come to the RIGHT PLACE to get your misunderstandings corrected.

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ According to God’s timing and plan etc.

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God’s will, work, and purpose

Yes. We are adopted in baptism, and our inheritance is kept for us imperishable in heaven. And yet, some are never united with it.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus’s message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised us (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

Actually the Apostle was referring here to the seal of Baptism.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus’s pledge (Security down payment) of my inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus’s acquisition of me unto the praise of His glory.

And there are some in whom the pledge is lost, since they do not persevere until the end.

I do have assurance of my salvation, it is a gift to me from God.

None of these verses equate to “assurance of salvation”.

I did not earn so that I can boast, but I humbly praise God for this gift of life, the life abundant and good.

Yes. It is very Catholic of you to say this!

And though I wrote above 'I' and 'me', it applies to all who accept God's terms receive this gift of good Life, the abundant life.

Yes, and may they all be One!

 

[CopticChristian]

I’d like to use this as a signature…
You, of course, would get the credit.

CONTINUED

So even our response is the work of God…as stated…

“The will is prepared by the Lord”

The Catholic Church has always taught that we are saved by grace, through Faith working in love…

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

Some Protestant wrongly teach that Catholics believe in works righteusness or earning our salvation. Poorly Catechized Catholics leave the Faith because Protestants teach them this false teaching…and if poorly Catechized they leave the Faith and turn to Fundamentalism, Evangelical Protestant thought, Messianic Judaism which is just another form of Protestant thought…

“What have you that you did not receive?”

Our ability to respond is made possible by God…

If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit,

The Church has taught and teaches that it is through Baptism is recieved as well as Faith/Hope/Charity…and many Protestants are baptized in the trinitarian formula and deny the effects, yet the Catholic Church honors this gift they have recieved, even if they deny it…

If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith.

There is no such thing as assurance of salvation except in the mind of some Protestants and those would be called the once saved always saved…

I do have assurance of my salvation, it is a gift to me from God. I did not earn so that I can boast, but I humbly praise God for this gift of life, the life abundant and good.

It would be best to honor St. Paul and you would be wise to honor St. Paul and the teachings of the Church by reformulating this…to…

I believe that salvation is a gift from God, that I do not earn, nor can I boast in, for on my own I can do nothing, I humbly praise God for His calling, moving me to respond, receive His gifts of the Hope of abundant life by grace, through Faith, working in love…

This would be an honest and gracious way to honor revealed truth that will serve you well as you proceed to RCIA…

 

[CopticChristian]

.

My dear oblate,

Coptic, have you been hitting the nightcaps a little hard?

You commence with a question that concerns what? Explain this question.

No, the polemics of the Reformation, and the statements in Exsurge Domine cannot be applied to modern Protestants.

We see things from a different perspective.

The one I posted from the catechism, that says our separated brethren are not to be charged with the sin of separation. I inserted the link, so you can read the context.

I read the content.

If you believe this, then it seems to me that posting polemics as you have done is counterproductive.

You did not like the post and believe it has no value.

I think you were posting it with regard to Itwin.

You are welcome to infer this is you wish.

If you were addressing it to me then…I don’t know what to say about that.

You have said what you said.

It comes across as though you are throwing stones and being deliberately adversarial.

You are welcome to believe this if you wish.

I think you were aiming the quote from ED at Itwin, rather uncharitably.

This is a judgement that suggests you read my mind and know my thoughts.

Indeed, I have reached it by the context of your exchange.

Inferences remain that until a direct question is asked.

Only insofar as you have represented them here. You have been quite forceful that Itwin should become Catholic

In your opinion, not knowing my thoughts, my feelings, my intentions that you may inquire about if you wish.

 

[guanophore]

That’s why I am not a ‘protestant’. I am an evangelical Christian.

You call yourself as such, and it may be that there are some “protestant” ideas with which you do not agree, but the fact is that your faith tradition and theology emanate from the Protestant Reformation.

You probably think your theology and doctrine comes directly from the Bible, but you interpret what you read in an anti-Catholic manner, which is why it is Protestant.