Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[CopticChristian]

I never judged you CopticChristian. I did get frustrated at the amount of time I was putting in the discussion and making things as clear as I could and still being told that I was saying something that I was not saying. I was being told that I was saying actions were not important in being a Christian. I was told I was proposing two classes of Christians. I was told I was judging people (and I still have not been told who it is that I have judged?). So, yes, I was frustrated, but I was never judging anyone.

Itwin,

Answer these questions…

Are there people in the world you believe act like Christians and are not Christians? Yes/no

Are there people in the world you believe are Christians that don’t act like Christians? Yes/no

Can you just be a Christian without acting like one? Yes/no

Simple yes/no…without explanation will provide all the answers I need.

 

[JonNC]

This congregation said “one holy Christian and apostolic church” so there was no misunderstanding they were affiliated with the RC Church.

Yes, too bad that fear still remains in some quarters of Lutheranism.

Jon

 

[ltwin]

Even in such a case, surely it is better for the person’s soul to “act like” a Christian than not. Even if he is not personally convinced that, for example, sleeping around is a sin, if he chooses not to sleep around because of “what the neighbors will think,” then the effect on his family is still a positive effect, even if he faithful to his marriage “for the wrong reason.”

I think there are far worse things that could happen to someone than to be a hypocrite, since at least he would have the good effects of the Christian lifestyle in his life on earth, and his family and friends would be better for it, as well.

There are worse things, but that doesn’t mean we should be satisfied that there are hypocrites. While their lives may not be destructive and they may actually be very constructive with their time and efforts, they still have souls. They still sin like we all do, and they still need the grace of God and the gift of faith. Since they are within reach of the church’s voice what is wrong with trying to reach them? Think of how better of the Christian world would be if all the hypocrites were truly converted? There have always been hypocrites and there will always be hypocrites. That is reality. But that doesn’t mean we should be content with that.

 

[jmcrae]

There are worse things, but that doesn’t mean we should be satisfied that there are hypocrites. While their lives may not be destructive and they may actually be very constructive with their time and efforts, they still have souls. They still sin like we all do, and they still need the grace of God and the gift of faith. Since they are within reach of the church’s voice what is wrong with trying to reach them? Think of how better of the Christian world would be if all the hypocrites were truly converted? There have always been hypocrites and there will always be hypocrites. That is reality. But that doesn’t mean we should be content with that.

I don’t see how telling them to stop acting like Christians would help anything.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin,

Answer these questions…

OK.

Are there people in the world you believe act like Christians and are not Christians? Yes/no

Yes.

Are there people in the world you believe are Christians that don’t act like Christians? Yes/no

No.

Can you just be a Christian without acting like one? Yes/no

No.

If by “acting like” you mean “acting like Jesus” and “obeying Jesus” and doing such because you love Jesus and love those whom he loves.

If you mean “acting like” a Christian by merely imitating surface level qualities, then that doesn’t work. You have to stop being surface, and get at the heart of what Christianity is all about, which is Christ.

Simple yes/no…without explanation will provide all the answers I need.

Sorry about that last one. It needed more than a yes or no answer.

 

[ltwin]

I don’t see how telling them to stop acting like Christians would help anything.

Someone could read it, think about, and with the Holy Spirit’s help realize that this applies to them and repent, etc.

 

[guanophore]

My Dear Oblate,

We are Judgemental in one respect or another…your thoughts on CU in post 861 of this thread represent a judgement of sorts…

We all do this…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10369445#post10369445

Yes, I agree.

 My statements stand based on prior judgements...I reference a statement of Leo X

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

This is highly out of context, Coptic. It was written about those who were Catholic, and abandoned their faith. It does not apply now to anyone who was raised in a community that was separated from the Church.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

You violate the Teaching of the Church by leveling such accusations against modern non-Catholics.

Merge says Itwin is Sarcastic and weak and quite honestly I do not view Itwin as either and I do understand his sentiment. I also understand Merge’s point of view. Neither is wrong in my opinion however the most important thing for Itwin is to understand that emotions drive our thinking when we let them.

No, she did not. She was referring to his response to you, which, after repeated attacks on the quality of his faith, shows his patience failigng

What is clear is that this thread is way off track…

I don’t think so. One of the reasons modern Protestants don’t call themselves by that name is because they are not “protesting” anything. Itwin is living in the light of his own conscience and with the revelation he has received from God.

I would remind you that Catholics, as well as non-Catholics are equally bound by the forum rules:

Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question the intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.
It is acceptable to question policies and practices
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.
Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.

Flinging statements at modern Christians from Exsurge Domine can certainly be considered among the last of these. Were you ever pursuaded to believe something because you were insulted by someone?

What is also clear is that beliefs drive speaking, acting and typing…

Certainly they can. Are you saying that you believe about Itwin the same way that Pope Leo did about Luther?

What is clear is that agreements on particular issues as understood within the context of thinking at times stray from those agreements due to emotional overlay that represent our own particular judgements of our own thinking.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean that you agreed to follow the forum rules, but then “strayed”?

Clearly this thread is about why Evangelicals do not identify as Protestant...

Yes, and your forceful expectation that Itwin should abandon his faith and embrace yours is one certainly will not heal the wounds to unity that have occurred.

Forcefully baptizing the Muslims did not make them convert, either.

The answer is that Evangelicals are Protestant and in my opinion, based on my thinking, it is best to call this to their attention to have proper dialogue…

I can’t say I disagree with your premise. Just whether or not your dialogue has been “proper”. It has been mentioned in this thread, rightfully so, that most Protestants do not even think about Catholics.

Beyond that at this point the horse is dead and needs no more beating…

I hope that means that you will accept Itwin in charity.

 

[PRmerger]

Merge says Itwin is Sarcastic and weak and quite honestly I do not view Itwin as either and I do understand his sentiment.

No, Coptic. I do not view ltwin as sarcastic and weak. Only his response was sarcastic.

And when one offers sarcasm it is usually because one’s argument is weak.

That’s all I was suggesting and I am astonished that you would interpret that as an ad hominem!

 

[CopticChristian]

No, Coptic. I do not view ltwin as sarcastic and weak. Only his response was sarcastic.

And when one offers sarcasm it is usually because one’s argument is weak.

That’s all I was suggesting and I am astonished that you would interpret that as an ad hominem!

Merge,

I was not suggesting ad hominem, any hominem…I acknowledge your point of view and understand your point of view and understand your understanding of what you believe his point of view to be. No hominem.

 

[CopticChristian]

;10376174]Yes, I agree.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

No, she did not. She was referring to his response to you, which, after repeated attacks on the quality of his faith, shows his patience failigng

I would remind you that Catholics, as well as non-Catholics are equally bound by the forum rules:

Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question the intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.
It is acceptable to question policies and practices
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.
Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.

Flinging statements at modern Christians from Exsurge Domine can certainly be considered among the last of these. Were you ever pursuaded to believe something because you were insulted by someone?

QUOTE]

My dear oblate,

This is highly out of context, Coptic. It was written about those who were Catholic, and abandoned their faith. It does not apply now to anyone who was raised in a community that was separated from the Church.

While the context of the statement you view as out of context, the sentiment is consistent with many modern views and in that sense may be out of context if read in context however the statement can stand alone.

You violate the Teaching of the Church by leveling such accusations against modern non-Catholics.

What violations of the teachings of the Church is your perception leading you to believe that this is true?

I don’t think so. One of the reasons modern Protestants don’t call themselves by that name is because they are not “protesting” anything. Itwin is living in the light of his own conscience and with the revelation he has received from God.

I agree that Itwin is responding to a call from God.

Rhetorical questions may be used to introduce a new aspect of inquiry but not to evade challenges or to call into question the intelligence, education, or any other personal qualities of another poster.
It is acceptable to question policies and practices
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.
Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.

Flinging statements at modern Christians from Exsurge Domine can certainly be considered among the last of these. Were you ever pursuaded to believe something because you were insulted by someone?

The statement from Exsurge Domine was addressed to you and while you percieve and categorize it as a fling, it was typed.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean that you agreed to follow the forum rules, but then “strayed”?

You are not sure, that is sure. What I mean is what I said. Judgements about our own thinking can cause our judgements to be swayed while we think. Think about it.

Certainly they can. Are you saying that you believe about Itwin the same way that Pope Leo did about Luther?

This would be your inference.

Yes, and your forceful expectation that Itwin should abandon his faith and embrace yours is one certainly will not heal the wounds to unity that have occurred.

Forcefully baptizing the Muslims did not make them convert, either.

You know my expectations? I have words I will share with Itwin as to my expectations that may cause you to judge your thinking as it concerns your belief you know my expectations.

I can’t say I disagree with your premise. Just whether or not your dialogue has been “proper”. It has been mentioned in this thread, rightfully so, that most Protestants do not even think about Catholics.

I appreciate your agreement. What is it you believe my premise to be?

I hope that means that you will accept Itwin in charity./

Hope springs eternal and your hope was and will be realized in ways you could not imagine nor eyes have seen…amazing how that works…

 

[CopticChristian]

OK.

Yes.

No.

No.

If by “acting like” you mean “acting like Jesus” and “obeying Jesus” and doing such because you love Jesus and love those whom he loves.

If you mean “acting like” a Christian by merely imitating surface level qualities, then that doesn’t work. You have to stop being surface, and get at the heart of what Christianity is all about, which is Christ.

Sorry about that last one. It needed more than a yes or no answer.

Itwin,

Lets bury this. I have no response to your answers and while driving today I realized that I posted these questions and if you can imagine someone driving, slapping their forehead, grimacing and wondering…man, I thought I had posted this horse is dead and let us stop beating it…

It is over…

Let us do this…I have 3 sisters, no brother, and if I had one that could go toe to toe with me like you do and give me the time of day, then you would be a brother I would have…

This statement means something to you. If it has meaning to you then you believe it has value. If it has value then you believe it is worth sharing. If it worth sharing then it is worth contemplating…

Stop Acting like a Christian and just be one…

If this means something to you, if you value it, if it causes you to be happy…then be happy…and if I ever call this to your attention again…remind me that I said…

This horse is dead…it is time to stop beating it…Ok…

In the future, I want you to understand that I cherish you as much as you cherish this statement and more…and with that I will recall that as I respond to any of your postings…

Can we speak of something else already?

 

[empantarhei]

Lets bury this…
It is over…

Let us do this…
This horse is dead…it is time to stop beating it…Ok…
Can we speak of something else already?

is…this…really…IT???

if so, it has been very enlightening, at times heated (seemingly), and definitely entertaining, believe it or not.
I wait for the final answer, though…

 

[fbl9]

I don’t see how telling them to stop acting like Christians would help anything.

Back in the dark days of my youth, i don’t know if this would have spurred me to seek out Jesus. It might have, however if it did i would have turned away from the Church.

 

[benjohnson]

To jump in:

I remember having a conversation with a good Catholic friend (who is now the godfather of my third child) about religion, and he started a sentence with “You protestants…”

My gut reaction was to say “I don’t consider myself to be a protestant” and we continued the conversation.

After a few years, I think I’ve finally figured out why - the label “protestant” begins to shape any subsequent conversation as a dichotomy or a rupture.

I think my gut reaction was telling me something:

Rather than run away from our brothers in Christ as ‘protestant’ implies, we should be running toward the Gospel. And I think we will meet each other there.

 

[cheezey]

To jump in:

I remember having a conversation with a good Catholic friend (who is now the godfather of my third child) about religion, and he started a sentence with “You protestants…”

My gut reaction was to say “I don’t consider myself to be a protestant” and we continued the conversation.

After a few years, I think I’ve finally figured out why - the label “protestant” begins to shape any subsequent conversation as a dichotomy or a rupture.

I think my gut reaction was telling me something:

Rather than run away from our brothers in Christ as ‘protestant’ implies, we should be running toward the Gospel. And I think we will meet each other there.

Which is why I quite often say, “Devout Christian,” but that depends upon the situation, too…

 

[CopticChristian]

Which is why I quite often say, “Devout Christian,” but that depends upon the situation, too…

Cheezey,

I believe we need to keep in mind the fervor of our professed faith…

And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins

This professed Faith, in the Creed includes acknowledging the work of God, accepting the work of God, believing in the work of God and sharing the work of God…as we profess the marks of the Church, One and only one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . .
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of

Peter."322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”

855 The Church’s mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity.357 Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all its aspects."358

The Catechism reminds us of this unity, and the reasons for this unity…all men are called because only here is found the fullness of truth…and it is not that we want to take anything away…we just want everyone to have everything that God has given…and being part of the visible product of the work of God…

The Church mission is our mission and ecumenism should be viewed as other than acknowlegement of anyone devotion, working together, praying together because if that is all we do then we fail…

The USA Catechism for adults spells it out quite clearly.

THE CHURCH IS ONE
The mark of oneness reflects the unity of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit, the bond of love between the Father and the Son, unites all the members of the Church as the one People of God. The Church professes one Lord, one faith, and one Baptism and forms one body (cf. CCC, no. 866) under the leadership of the Holy Father, successor to Peter the Apostle. The unity that Christ bestowed on his Church is something she can never lose (cf. Second Vatican Council, Decree on Ecumenism [Unitatis Redintegratio; UR], no. 4; CCC, nos. 813, 815).

Tragically, members of the Church have offended against her unity, and throughout the centuries, there have developed divisions among Christians. Already in the fifth century, doctrinal disagreements led to the separation of some Christians in the eastern region of the Roman Empire from the main body of the Church. More damaging was the rupture between Rome and Constantinople in AD 1054. And in the six¬teenth century Western Europe experienced the divisions that followed the Protestant Reformation.

The Catholic Church has always been committed to the restoration of unity among all Christians.

Ecumenism includes efforts to pray together, joint study of the Scripture and of one another’s traditions, common action for social justice, and dialogue in which the leaders and theologians of the different churches and communities discuss in depth their doctrinal and theological positions for greater mutual understand¬ing, and “to work for unity in truth” (UUS, nos. 18, 29). In dialogue the obligation to respect the truth is absolute. “The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety” (UUS, no. 18).

If we believe the Church is One, and if we believe that there is something that is missing in the elements of those that are separated, while dialogue is important, that dialogue is not as some would profess and some post…

Lets focus on Christ
Lets focus on praying together
Lets focus on what we have in common

No, lets focus on truth, lets focus on unity in truth, lets focus on adherence to the content of revealed truth in it’s entirety…and lets focus on the mission of the Church to unite and restore that which has been broken by the sin of men…and with that in mind…

We must constantly remind those that are children of the Reformation that their paricipation in the Body of Christ is imperfect based on Revealed truth…and if it means…

Your protestant thought
Your protestant community
Your protestant heritage…

To negate Protestant at any level of conversation removes the obstacle to unity and fails the mission of the Church, which is our mission…

 

[benjohnson]

We must constantly remind those that are children of the Reformation that their paricipation in the Body of Christ is imperfect based on Revealed truth…and if it means…

Coptic, I say Amen to your call of unity in God’s truth - I’d rather hear of a thousand distinct voices in God’s choir than an muddled mass of mumbling of the lowest common denominator.

I hope that I’ll be the first to admit that my participation in the Body of Christ is woefully imperfect - that the body hasn’t rejected me is a sign of God’s love.

But while I’m not in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I take infinite solace in the truth of the Gospel as God has steadfastly given me, though I barely listen.

For me, God’s truth is in the hands of my pastor as he says to me “Ben, the body of Christ broken for you.” I am joyously happy for you that you have found much more than that, but I think in this mode, God has met me on my level and I am content.

At times, we Lutherans may be simple: Strong Law, Good Gospel, and our small churches filled with Hymns. For now, that is my calling as I bring the children that God has granted me and my wife into the faith.

 

[cheezey]

Cheezey,

I believe we need to keep in mind the fervor of our professed faith…

This professed Faith, in the Creed includes acknowledging the work of God, accepting the work of God, believing in the work of God and sharing the work of God…as we profess the marks of the Church, One and only one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

The Catechism reminds us of this unity, and the reasons for this unity…all men are called because only here is found the fullness of truth…and it is not that we want to take anything away…we just want everyone to have everything that God has given…and being part of the visible product of the work of God…

The Church mission is our mission and ecumenism should be viewed as other than acknowlegement of anyone devotion, working together, praying together because if that is all we do then we fail…

The USA Catechism for adults spells it out quite clearly.

If we believe the Church is One, and if we believe that there is something that is missing in the elements of those that are separated, while dialogue is important, that dialogue is not as some would profess and some post…

Lets focus on Christ
Lets focus on praying together
Lets focus on what we have in common

No, lets focus on truth, lets focus on unity in truth, lets focus on adherence to the content of revealed truth in it’s entirety…and lets focus on the mission of the Church to unite and restore that which has been broken by the sin of men…and with that in mind…

We must constantly remind those that are children of the Reformation that their paricipation in the Body of Christ is imperfect based on Revealed truth…and if it means…

Your protestant thought
Your protestant community
Your protestant heritage…

To negate Protestant at any level of conversation removes the obstacle to unity and fails the mission of the Church, which is our mission…

You may have taken my response to heart a bit much. Most times, I just don’t want to debate, never mind argue from an overheated debate. I am not up to it. Not unlike being asked what my family heritage is. If I am not up to explaining, “American.” Period.

I absolutely agree with your post!

In my singular case, I have not professed my faith yet! You know the deacon only just got back to me??? The director only just called me TODAY!! It only been since NOVEMBER!!! and now it is too late for quickly. I have made my peace that this may happen only in my mind, because 2014 is a LONG time away.

Ergh. Keep writing for me, though. I 'm gonna PM you…

 

[cheezey]

Coptic, I say Amen to your call of unity in God’s truth - I’d rather hear of a thousand distinct voices in God’s choir than an muddled mass of mumbling of the lowest common denominator.

I hope that I’ll be the first to admit that my participation in the Body of Christ is woefully imperfect - that the body hasn’t rejected me is a sign of God’s love.

But while I’m not in communion with the Bishop of Rome, I take infinite solace in the truth of the Gospel as God has steadfastly given me, though I barely listen.

For me, God’s truth is in the hands of my pastor as he says to me “Ben, the body of Christ broken for you.” I am joyously happy for you that you have found much more than that, but I think in this mode, God has met me on my level and I am content.

At times, we Lutherans may be simple: Strong Law, Good Gospel, and our small churches filled with Hymns. For now, that is my calling as I bring the children that God has granted me and my wife into the faith.

I will be forever in the middle of this…
I was not discontent til all the ( ) baggage turned my life - and my communication skills with God - upside down. My faith hasn’tt waivered, my expression of it has…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Just want to share this, nothing more - nothing less.

1 Corinthians 13
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
The Gift of Love

13 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part; 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Paul said, Love is the greatest. I think he forgot to add, it is the hardest as well.

Cheezey, I pray Godspeed on your case.