Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[CopticChristian]

To be fair ,plenty of judgmentalism exists on both sides of the fence.

In Itwin’s defense, I have been reading his posts for a long time, and I dont’ find him in any way putting himself across as judging others, or attempting to glorify himself. On the contrary, like only a handful of our separated brethen such as JonNC have been able to do here, he strongly represents his own faith tradition in a courteous manner here at CAF while he is constantly discredited and pressured to convert, as you have demonstrated here in your posts.

I believe that Itwin is already pursuaded that has already “decide(d) whether they want to be children of God, doing as much as they can with the aid of grace and the Holy Spirit, never being judged by their fellow Christian in their journey” and that he already has the aid and grace of the HS, and is hotly on the path of holiness in pursuit of the One Faith. To imply otherwise, as you seem to do here is…

well…

judgemental!

My Dear Oblate,

We are Judgemental in one respect or another…your thoughts on CU in post 861 of this thread represent a judgement of sorts…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10369445#post10369445

In this you have chosen to cling to your own prejudices and falsehoods instead of accepting what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. You are quite right, if a person chooses to cling to lies, there will be irreconcilable differences. I understand that many Protestants must cling to this falsehood, though, because giving it up would mean many would be bound my conscience to become Catholic, and they can’t bring themselves to submit to the authority appointed by Christ.

I have read your posts since the first day you arrived here at CAF, and it seems clear to me that what you “tried” was to get Catholics to abandon the faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles in order to embrace an outward “unity” that does not exist. We are not at liberty to jettison the One Faith, especially in favor of doctrines created by the Reformers 1500 years after the once for all deposit of faith. The fact that you wish us to do so creates an irreconcilable difference.

We all do this…

My statements stand based on prior judgements…I reference a statement of Leo X

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

Exsurge Domine

Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520

No one of sound mind is ignorant how destructive, pernicious, scandalous, and seductive to pious and simple minds these various errors are, how opposed they are to all charity and reverence for the holy Roman Church who is the mother of all the faithful and teacher of the faith; how destructive they are of the vigor of ecclesiastical discipline, namely obedience. This virtue is the font and origin of all virtues and without it anyone is readily convicted of being unfaithful.

Merge says Itwin is Sarcastic and weak and quite honestly I do not view Itwin as either and I do understand his sentiment. I also understand Merge’s point of view. Neither is wrong in my opinion however the most important thing for Itwin is to understand that emotions drive our thinking when we let them.

What is clear is that this thread is way off track…

What is also clear is that beliefs drive speaking, acting and typing…

What is clear is that agreements on particular issues as understood within the context of thinking at times stray from those agreements due to emotional overlay that represent our own particular judgements of our own thinking.

Clearly this thread is about why Evangelicals do not identify as Protestant…

The answer is that Evangelicals are Protestant and in my opinion, based on my thinking, it is best to call this to their attention to have proper dialogue…

Beyond that at this point the horse is dead and needs no more beating…

 

[jmcrae]

I’ll 2nd that about Itwin. I wish that I was that constrained and patient. In my experience, I sometimes feel that some of the outspoken catholics protestant me. I’m not their Judge. God is the only Judge, I put my trust in Him. Nobody is saved because they belong to the only one right Christian organization. In fact, the Catholic Magisterial acknowledges that non-Catholic Christains will be saved.

“Can be,” if God chooses to act outside of the Sacraments. That’s a pretty big “if.”

Not “will be.”

 

[SteveVH]

“Can be,” if God chooses to act outside of the Sacraments. That’s a pretty big “if.”

Not “will be.”

Yes it is a big “if”, considering we would say the same thing about a Muslim or a Hindu.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ll 2nd that about Itwin. I wish that I was that constrained and patient. In my experience, I sometimes feel that some of the outspoken catholics protestant me. I’m not their Judge. God is the only Judge, I put my trust in Him. Nobody is saved because they belong to the only one right Christian organization. In fact, the Catholic Magisterial acknowledges that non-Catholic Christains will be saved.

Telestia,

You say that outspoken catholics protestant you. What do you mean by that?

 

[jmcrae]

It’s only inconsistent to you because you insist on using a definition of “acting” that I’m not using. “Acting” in what we are saying refers to role playing or putting on a show.

And it is still unclear to me why, in a world that is hostile to Christianity, would someone who did not believe that being a Christian is at least something to strive for, would “act like” a Christian in the sense of putting on a show?

There are no material benefits to an atheist or other unbeliever in doing such a thing - in fact, quite the opposite - one who “acts like” an atheist is more likely to receive promotions at work and the favour of the opposite sex. Atheists are more likely to be regarded as intelligent and trustworthy, generally speaking, and are more likely to obtain secure employment.

It would make absolutely no sense for an actual atheist to “act like” a Christian - there would be no benefit to him, and in fact, much to lose.

 

[cheezey]

What is clear is that this thread is way off track…

What is also clear is that beliefs drive speaking, acting and typing…

What is clear is that agreements on particular issues as understood within the context of thinking at times stray from those agreements due to emotional overlay that represent our own particular judgements of our own thinking.

Clearly this thread is about why Evangelicals do not identify as Protestant…

The answer is that Evangelicals are Protestant and in my opinion, based on my thinking, it is best to call this to their attention to have proper dialogue…

Beyond that at this point the horse is dead and needs no more beating…

There you are, Coptic.
I have nothing erudite to say, except I have never, in all my years thought, or heard from others, that Evangelicals are not Protestant. And my upbringing is both Protestant and Catholic, if that has any bearing
And yes, we all judge in a reactionary sort of way. It’s a human, imperfect thing we do. But then we need to think that there may a reason for the action. A Christian reaction to our own judgements.
I may not have said that well. Sorry. We judge, bottom line. It’s what we then do with it as Christians, and essentially, striving human beings.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes it is a big “if”, considering we would say the same thing about a Muslim or a Hindu.

Exactly. The qualifications that we see are two: first, they are striving after God as best they know Him, and they do not commit any mortal sin throughout their entire lives (ie: they never do anything against God’s commandments, according their ability to understand at the time of the action.)

 

[CopticChristian]

There you are, Coptic.
I have nothing erudite to say, except I have never, in all my years thought, or heard from others, that Evangelicals are not Protestant. And my upbringing is both Protestant and Catholic, if that has any bearing
And yes, we all judge in a reactionary sort of way. It’s a human, imperfect thing we do. But then we need to think that there may a reason for the action. A Christian reaction to our own judgements.
I may not have said that well. Sorry. We judge, bottom line. It’s what we then do with it as Christians, and essentially, striving human beings.

Cheezey,

Glad you are doing well. Hope things improve. Who wants to be erudite? Not me. I went back and looked at all my posts on this issue and the amusing thing to me is that I did not address anyone personally…

I addressed my objection to a thought…yes, a thought…and that thought was not even Itwin’s thoughts…it was retrieved from a Protestant Pastor that wrote a book. If you go back and review…

I never said, you ignorant twit, what stupid person led you to believe this idiotic thing…no,

I addressed the thought, I asked questions, I posited an alternate point of view…and in doing so revealed the formulation of my thinking…

My thinking is formulation of information based on understanding that stands in opposition to another thought that I find to be inconsistent and for that reason discussed it. Notice that all objections to my thinking were directed to me…I am not my thinking and I did not address my thinking to any one person except to reference the origin of that thought…

I addressed this…

Stop Acting Like a Christain and just be one…

yet notice how personally this objection to this thought manifested itself and how judgment was not brought to bear on formulation of my thoughts…rather on me…

Such is the manner of thoughts that they become personified in their acceptance and rejection…

This is fascinating and part and parcel of the human experience…

We are not our thinking…

 

[cheezey]

This is fascinating and part and parcel of the human experience…

We are not our thinking…

Praise God for that because I am thinking that this is one @%$%! day for me.
I am still enjoying your posts.
And I don’t really want to be erudite, either; sometimes there is a need to be, though. And compared to most of the writers here, I am admittedly stinky with good retorts, especially when I am almost bursting to retort, well and otherwise.

Thank you

 

[jrtrent]

Many of my evangelical protestant friends never refer to themselves as protestants. Most of them were members of Campus Crusade, and even this organization didn’t really refer to itself as protestant, only Christian. I even had one of my best friends ask me “what’s a protestant” (no joke, she never heard of the term which surprised me)

So why do evangelical denominations use only Christian when referring to themselves.Do they want to misinform people that they are the only true christians. Do they have a lot of disregard for their protestant history? Or do they just feel they’ve moved beyond the whole Catholic protestant thing, even if they still are protestant? Anyone who can tell me please help

The Wikipedia article on Protestantism says, “The term Protestant was not initially applied to the Reformers, but later was used to describe all groups protesting Roman Catholic orthodoxy.” I would think that especially for members of Campus Crusade, which is interdenominational and even claims to have some Catholics on their staff, they simply don’t see themselves as protesting against anybody.

Is Campus Crusade anti-Catholic? (Are they Protestant?)

No, Campus Crusade for Christ, an inter-denominational ministry, has a history for radical ecumenism. CCC founder Bill Bright believes the Spirit of God is doing a great work in both the Roman Catholic and Protestant fellowships and communions; both backgrounds call to and honor Jesus Christ as Lord. He also stated, “We do not attack the Roman Church. We believe God is doing a mighty work in it and will no doubt use millions of Roman Catholics to help evangelize the world” (The Post & Times Star, Cincinnati, Ohio, Aug. 30, 1969).

There are many Christ-following Catholics who are committed to helping fulfill the Great Commission (there have been numerous Roman Catholics on CCC staff). Campus Crusade openly works with Christ-following Catholics to finish this task without compromising their Biblical commitments. campus.udayton.edu/~ccc/faq.html

 

[CopticChristian]

Praise God for that because I am thinking that this is one @%$%! day for me.
I am still enjoying your posts.
And I don’t really want to be erudite, either; sometimes there is a need to be, though. And compared to most of the writers here, I am admittedly stinky with good retorts, especially when I am almost bursting to retort, well and otherwise.

Thank you

Cheezey,

Study the Catechism…and I have alluded to NLP and Neurosemantics. This is just communicating and thinking. I discovered through Neurosemantics that the writings of the Bible are nothing more than just that. The writers of the bible knew feelings, thinking, believing and communication.

Neurosemantics is nothing more than understanding how we see the world and how we develop a state of being…St. Paul knew and understood this…

10But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at last you have revived your concern for me; indeed, you were concerned before, but you lacked opportunity. 11Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. 12I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. 13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Notice he rejoices…

He learned to be content in whatever circumstance…this means he has experienced many circumstances and understands the state of mind of those circumstances…

I know how to get along with humble means. He has experienced humble means and can recall that state of mind…

I also know how to live in prosperity. He has experienced this and can recall this state of mind.

He points out that he learned a secret?

What is that secret?..to formulate our states of mind in whatever circumstance we find ourselves in and in this case he formulates his state of mind by recalling the state of mind of working out his salvation with fear and trembling, striving for the prize, running the race…and in that he finds joy…

So, we can manage our lives by recalling states of mind that center us and focus us and when in this circumstance that your day is filled with…@%^@%$…then all you have to do is make use of the secret that Paul had and recall a state of mind that you found yourself filled with joy…and then this circumstance you find yourself in will change because you change…and we are called to

Repent=change your mind and not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewal of our minds…and with that you can make use of what God gave you and find peace…

Have a better day…

 

[MaryT777]

From the Augsburg Confession:
Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

Mary: When I attended Basics of the Faith class in the LCMS I was taught they believed nothing of transubstantiation as the Catholic Church teaches. The Pastor would say "This is the true body and blood of Christ “in with and under” the bread and wine. That is not scriptural nor the real presence as Catholics understand it by any means. . In fact the understanding of real presence is so different a Catholic cannot Commune in a LCMS Church and vice versa as you know given that and the grave doctrinal differences.

As Lutherans, we confess the Nicene Creed, which ends, “And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

We are members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Jon

This congregation said “one holy Christian and apostolic church” so there was no misunderstanding they were affiliated with the RC Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

The Wikipedia article on Protestantism says, “The term Protestant was not initially applied to the Reformers, but later was used to describe all groups protesting Roman Catholic orthodoxy.” I would think that especially for members of Campus Crusade, which is interdenominational and even claims to have some Catholics on their staff, they simply don’t see themselves as protesting against anybody.

Is Campus Crusade anti-Catholic? (Are they Protestant?)

No, Campus Crusade for Christ, an inter-denominational ministry, has a history for radical ecumenism. CCC founder Bill Bright believes the Spirit of God is doing a great work in both the Roman Catholic and Protestant fellowships and communions; both backgrounds call to and honor Jesus Christ as Lord. He also stated, “We do not attack the Roman Church. We believe God is doing a mighty work in it and will no doubt use millions of Roman Catholics to help evangelize the world” (The Post & Times Star, Cincinnati, Ohio, Aug. 30, 1969).

There are many Christ-following Catholics who are committed to helping fulfill the Great Commission (there have been numerous Roman Catholics on CCC staff). Campus Crusade openly works with Christ-following Catholics to finish this task without compromising their Biblical commitments. campus.udayton.edu/~ccc/faq.html

Trent,

I could never participate in this ministry, nor would I suggest any Catholic participate in this ministery based on the Statement of Faith. What does it mean to say…

There are many Christ-following Catholics committed to helping fulfill the Great Commission?

My great commision is to get everyone Baptized and join the Church.

What is your understanding of the Great Commision?

What does it mean to say that many Catholics are Christ-following? Are not all Catholics Christ-following?..or are we back to who decides who is a Christian, acting like a Christian and being a Christian…

cru.org/about-us/statement-of-faith/index.htm

Statement of Faith

The sole basis of our beliefs is the Bible, God’s infallible written Word, the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments. We believe that it was uniquely, verbally and fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it was written without error (inerrant) in the original manuscripts. It is the supreme and final authority in all matters on which it speaks.
We accept those areas of doctrinal teaching on which, historically, there has been general agreement among all true Christians. Because of the specialized calling of our movement, we desire to allow for freedom of conviction on other doctrinal matters, provided that any interpretation is based upon the Bible alone, and that no such interpretation shall become an issue which hinders the ministry to which God has called us.

• God admonishes His people to assemble together regularly for worship, for participation in ordinances, for edification through the Scriptures and for mutual encouragement.

Protestants have 66 books in the Protocanonicals. I reject this. I don’t assemble for worship to participate in any ordinance, I worship united in the Eucharist.

Explain the great commission.

Help me understand how any Catholic can join an organization promoting Protocanonicals?

Are all Catholics Christ following? Yes/No?

Help me understand how any Catholic can join an organization believing the sole basis of beliefs is found in the Bible? Only Protestants believe this.

Help me understand how any Catholic worships and participates in Ordinances.

I am all ears.:whackadoo:

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know if you’ve read this whole thread, PRmerger, but Itwin has been, on the whole, patient, self-restrained and charitable while having a discussion that would have me banging my head against the wall.

I have indeed read this whole thread.

And while I appreciate the charity that has been displayed by ltwin, I found his comment to my friend, Coptic, unworthy of him. It was unnecessary.

 

[cheezey]

Cheezey,
Notice he rejoices…

He learned to be content in whatever circumstance…this means he has experienced many circumstances and understands the state of mind of those circumstances…

I know how to get along with humble means. He has experienced humble means and can recall that state of mind…

I also know how to live in prosperity. He has experienced this and can recall this state of mind.

He points out that he learned a secret?

What is that secret?..to formulate our states of mind in whatever circumstance we find ourselves in and in this case he formulates his state of mind by recalling the state of mind of working out his salvation with fear and trembling, striving for the prize, running the race…and in that he finds joy…

So, we can manage our lives by recalling states of mind that center us and focus us and when in this circumstance that your day is filled with…@%^@%$…then all you have to do is make use of the secret that Paul had and recall a state of mind that you found yourself filled with joy…and then this circumstance you find yourself in will change because you change…and we are called to

Repent=change your mind and not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewal of our minds…and with that you can make use of what God gave you and find peace…

Have a better day…

I understand and have had that ability, but certainly not now. I can no longer recall states that centered me. It’s as if they never were there. I feel badly about it. Don’t know what else to say on the matter. I am just tired and feeling - dunno. I am a big fan of mindfulness, but I just cannot grasp it. Anyway, don’t want to derail the choo choo.

Thank you as always

 

[jrtrent]

Help me understand how any Catholic can join an organization believing the sole basis of beliefs is found in the Bible? . . . Help me understand how any Catholic worships and participates in Ordinances.

I am all ears.

I’m afraid you’ll have to pose your questions to those Catholics who joined. I’m just suggesting that the Campus Crusade members whom the OP knew, given the “radical ecumenism” they espouse, would likely not see themselves as “protesting” anything, not even the Catholic Church. The OP mentioned that one person didn’t even know what the word “Protestant” meant. This might relate to the OP’s question as to why the evangelical Protestants he or she knows, most of whom were Campus Crusade members, don’t refer to themselves as Protestants.

 

[ltwin]

And it is still unclear to me why, in a world that is hostile to Christianity, would someone who did not believe that being a Christian is at least something to strive for, would “act like” a Christian in the sense of putting on a show?

There are no material benefits to an atheist or other unbeliever in doing such a thing - in fact, quite the opposite - one who “acts like” an atheist is more likely to receive promotions at work and the favour of the opposite sex. Atheists are more likely to be regarded as intelligent and trustworthy, generally speaking, and are more likely to obtain secure employment.

It would make absolutely no sense for an actual atheist to “act like” a Christian - there would be no benefit to him, and in fact, much to lose.

You are painting a picture with a very broad brush. There are places where being identified a Christian is incredibly important. Religious affiliation is still important in getting elected in parts of the US. Churches are still influential institutions that can be utilized to gain power and prestige—look at how cults get started and the large megachurches where pastors take millions of dollars from church members to fund lavish lifestyles. So, churches are still influential institutions, especially if they can utilize a lot of people.

There are people who are born into Christian families and grow up in environments where it is important to conform to Christian standards. I could go on and on but I don’t really think I need to.

 

[ltwin]

Cheezey,

Glad you are doing well. Hope things improve. Who wants to be erudite? Not me. I went back and looked at all my posts on this issue and the amusing thing to me is that I did not address anyone personally…

I addressed my objection to a thought…yes, a thought…and that thought was not even Itwin’s thoughts…it was retrieved from a Protestant Pastor that wrote a book. If you go back and review…

I never said, you ignorant twit, what stupid person led you to believe this idiotic thing…no,

I addressed the thought, I asked questions, I posited an alternate point of view…and in doing so revealed the formulation of my thinking…

My thinking is formulation of information based on understanding that stands in opposition to another thought that I find to be inconsistent and for that reason discussed it. Notice that all objections to my thinking were directed to me…I am not my thinking and I did not address my thinking to any one person except to reference the origin of that thought…

I addressed this…

Stop Acting Like a Christain and just be one…

yet notice how personally this objection to this thought manifested itself and how judgment was not brought to bear on formulation of my thoughts…rather on me…

Such is the manner of thoughts that they become personified in their acceptance and rejection…

This is fascinating and part and parcel of the human experience…

We are not our thinking…

I never judged you CopticChristian. I did get frustrated at the amount of time I was putting in the discussion and making things as clear as I could and still being told that I was saying something that I was not saying. I was being told that I was saying actions were not important in being a Christian. I was told I was proposing two classes of Christians. I was told I was judging people (and I still have not been told who it is that I have judged?). So, yes, I was frustrated, but I was never judging anyone.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m afraid you’ll have to pose your questions to those Catholics who joined. I’m just suggesting that the Campus Crusade members whom the OP knew, given the “radical ecumenism” they espouse, would likely not see themselves as “protesting” anything, not even the Catholic Church. The OP mentioned that one person didn’t even know what the word “Protestant” meant. This might relate to the OP’s question as to why the evangelical Protestants he or she knows, most of whom were Campus Crusade members, don’t refer to themselves as Protestants.

Trent,

I understand that someone may not refer to themselves as something however that does not change what they are.

A name does not change the substance of a thing. Protestant thought is Protestant thought. It does not become something else by calling it “Campus Crusade for Christ”…based on Sola Scriptura and the Protocanonicals as well as other issues.

Saddleback Community Church remains a Baptist Church regardless of what you call it.

This notion of believing that you are other than what you are by naming it other than what it is remains peculiar to Protestant thought.

I reject the entire notion as expressed in the statement of Faith of Campus Crusade and would suggest that any Catholic moved to be involved with any group check the statement of Faith.

 

[jmcrae]

You are painting a picture with a very broad brush. There are places where being identified a Christian is incredibly important. Religious affiliation is still important in getting elected in parts of the US. Churches are still influential institutions that can be utilized to gain power and prestige—look at how cults get started and the large megachurches where pastors take millions of dollars from church members to fund lavish lifestyles. So, churches are still influential institutions, especially if they can utilize a lot of people.

There are people who are born into Christian families and grow up in environments where it is important to conform to Christian standards. I could go on and on but I don’t really think I need to.

Even in such a case, surely it is better for the person’s soul to “act like” a Christian than not. Even if he is not personally convinced that, for example, sleeping around is a sin, if he chooses not to sleep around because of “what the neighbors will think,” then the effect on his family is still a positive effect, even if he faithful to his marriage “for the wrong reason.”

I think there are far worse things that could happen to someone than to be a hypocrite, since at least he would have the good effects of the Christian lifestyle in his life on earth, and his family and friends would be better for it, as well.