Why do many evangelical protestants not describe themselves as "protestants"

[Roostah]

From what do you believe you are free? You are free from the Sacraments; from the real presence of Christ; from the “foundation and pillar of truth”. Why would you think this makes you free?

Sorry. Jesus started a Church. Do you imagine that this was just some after-thought, not really important in the great scheme of things? It is all about “we”, and not just “me”. We are the body of Christ. We are in communion with each other as well as with Christ. A solitary part cannot claim to be the body. In order to be part of the body it is necessary that there are other parts as well. Jesus didn’t say “Now go off on your own and worship me.” He started a Church. From that point on having a relationship with Christ means having a relationship with his Church.

Hi Steve,

Though I am a shameful sinner, I am free from the guilt of my sin because I accept the free gift of redemption offered by Jesus to all. I have the real presence of Christ in my mind and in my heart. Is there some sacrament, some initiation, some work I can add to what Jesus has already done for me? What? What can I add to what Jesus has already done? Please name it.

Jesus started an ecclesia (see my last post). I am not catholic, I am not protestant, but still I am part of his eclessia…label free… part of his gathering of believers.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s also ignoring John Ch.23.

I think you meant John 6:53, in which Jesus scandalizes His disciples by commanding them to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. The Apostles, not understanding His meaning, put their trust in Him and continued to follow Him, since, as Peter said, there is no other who gives the word of life.

Later, when He instituted the Mass at the Last Supper He explained His meaning, when He showed them the transubstantial bread that was His body, and the transubstantial wine that was His blood, and said, “Do this in memory (anemnesis) of me” - more than just memory, but actual time-travel, joining ourselves with His flesh and blood in the Crucifixion.

Acts likewise shows not One-on-one travels - but always at least in Pairs. Even St. Paul did not travel alone most of the time (St. Phoebe the Deaconess was one of his assistants in his travels).

The entire Bible is clear that God has never intended a “one on one” relationship with anybody - His relationship with Adam was the only exception - and only prior to the birth of Eve. After that, it was always families, tribes, nations, and finally, the Church.

 

[flameburns623]

Many people have acted like zombies, werewolves, Vulcans, and Bigfoot.

Not many people–indeed, so far as we are aware, NO PEOPLE–actually ARE zombies, werewolves, Vulcans, or Bigfoot.

I’m left wondering if CopticChristian either speaks a primary language other than English, lacking the ability to grasp the nuances of the common tongue of this webforum, or else, with no disrespect intended, suffers from a mental condition which interferes with their ability to process abstract concepts.

 

[CopticChristian]

Man this thread has gotten way off subject. I don’t really know what an evangelical is. I googled it, I can read and understand. There seems to be a presumption that all those who profess to be a christian, come out of the catholic church one way or another-like through catholicism itself or out of the reformation churches. What the hey? you don’t need any church or organized religion to be a christian. If you have the Word of God and you believe in Jesus’ diety, life ,death and resurrection, you are a christian and you are saved.

Just what and what works do you need to add to that?

Roostah,

No work can add to the work of Christ. No work is pleasing to God absent the grace to do it for on your own you can do nothing.

You don’t need a church.

Do you attend a church?

You don’t need organized religion.

Do you prefer disorganized religion?

You believe you have the free gift of redemption. Good.

How did you get this gift. Did you ask for it or did you just get it. Outline a step by step process to get this gift so that even a 5th grader could understand.

If you believe you have the word of God…Now this is a big one. Do you believe you have the word of God? Why do you believe you have the word of God?

Ask yourself?

Did Christianity start in Europe or in Asia?

Was the Bible written in English or Greek?

How is it the Bible was translated into English for you to read?

Why do you need a Concordance?

The first biblical concordance was created around the year 1230 by Hugo of Saint-Cher. According to tradition he was assisted by 500 monks. This first concordance was based on the Latin version of the Bible and only listed the verse reference in which a word appeared, no part of the verse was included.

So, Christianity existed prior to 1230 without a Concordance. Why do you need a Concordance?

 

[CopticChristian]

Many people have acted like zombies, werewolves, Vulcans, and Bigfoot.

Not many people–indeed, so far as we are aware, NO PEOPLE–actually ARE zombies, werewolves, Vulcans, or Bigfoot.

I’m left wondering if CopticChristian either speaks a primary language other than English, lacking the ability to grasp the nuances of the common tongue of this webforum, or else, with no disrespect intended, suffers from a mental condition which interferes with their ability to process abstract concepts.

Flame,

It is dysfunctional to suggest you wonder about my thinking without addressing me directly. Do you wish to ask me a question so that we may see who grasps what, what tongues you are familiar with, and what mental conditions there are that cause interference.

What is it you have trouble with? Tell me directly.

 

[flameburns623]

Flame,

It is dysfunctional to suggest you wonder about my thinking without addressing me directly. Do you wish to ask me a question so that we may see who grasps what, what tongues you are familiar with, and what mental conditions there are that cause interference.

What is it you have trouble with? Tell me directly.

I seriously mean neither harm nor offense.

Most people find the distinction between “acting like a Christian” as opposed to being one fairly obvious. It’s a distinction of superficialities over substance.

Yet you’ve carried on this discussion, so far as I can tell, for several pages.

I apologise for any hurt feelings, and if the moderators deem it needful, please kindly expunge my prior post and any subsequent references thereto.

God bless, CC!

 

[ltwin]

I seriously mean neither harm nor offense.

Most people find the distinction between “acting like a Christian” as opposed to being one fairly obvious. It’s a distinction of superficialities over substance.

Yet you’ve carried on this discussion, so far as I can tell, for several pages.

I apologise for any hurt feelings, and if the moderators deem it needful, please kindly expunge my prior post and any subsequent references thereto.

God bless, CC!

Finally a Catholic who gets it. I was starting to believe that this was a sort of Catholic versus evangelical Protestant fundamental difference (which I did not believe until CopticChristian seemed incapable of grasping my point). You’ve given me hope that not all Catholics find this disagreeable.

 

[jmcrae]

Finally a Catholic who gets it. I was starting to believe that this was a sort of Catholic versus evangelical Protestant fundamental difference (which I did not believe until CopticChristian seemed incapable of grasping my point). You’ve given me hope that not all Catholics find this disagreeable.

I think he grasped it just fine. I think you are not grasping his point.

Just an observation.

Another observation is that there are those who say, “Being in a garage does not make you a car. Therefore, being in a Church does not make you a Christian.”

(Implication: People who go to Church are not “really” Christians. The truly lofty among us have better things to do on Sundays than put on beautiful clothes and hang around in a beautiful building praising their Creator in word and song. Because only fake Christians would ever do that. To impress … somebody … but not God, apparently, since they don’t even believe in Him … even though He really is the only one who cares at all … )

I say, if you were a car, and you did not go to the garage once a week to be filled up with gas, you would not remain a car for very many weeks - indeed, it would not be long before you became a rusty lawn ornament. You would have to “act like a car” in order to keep continuing to “be a car.”

In the same way, Christians who don’t attend weekly services in Church eventually cease to be Christians. Acting like a Christian is how you remain a Christian, once you have begun.

 

[CopticChristian]

I seriously mean neither harm nor offense.

Most people find the distinction between “acting like a Christian” as opposed to being one fairly obvious. It’s a distinction of superficialities over substance.

Yet you’ve carried on this discussion, so far as I can tell, for several pages.

I apologise for any hurt feelings, and if the moderators deem it needful, please kindly expunge my prior post and any subsequent references thereto.

God bless, CC!

Flame,

If you meant no harm nor offense, what was your motivation? Tell me.

Most people? You know most people? You have spoken to most people? Your understanding of this causes you to infer that my questions have to do with understanding what it is you believe is obvious. You then, do not understand that when you consider the entirety of the discussion…

Stop acting like a Christian, be one…all the pages you note that have been generated over 7 words appear to be so clear yet with so many pages it is an indication that when we look at The Word of God…the word that is so clear to all Protestants and we see this…

Oh, no it can’t mean that…it is just symbolic, even though in the Greek the word is gnaw…

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

and yet a few more words…

66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore

the Bible is clear as a bell…yet with 7 words that I asked for an understanding of the Protestant mind produced in answer to my questions the pages you speak of…

Do you now understand. I understand completely without question what those 7 words mean. Can you imagine how difficult it is for the Protestant mind to accept those two sentences above.

So while you believed I did not understand…think again as to who understood what and why I asked questions…

and then ask yourself this…

Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

 

[fbl9]

Finally a Catholic who gets it. I was starting to believe that this was a sort of Catholic versus evangelical Protestant fundamental difference (which I did not believe until CopticChristian seemed incapable of grasping my point). You’ve given me hope that not all Catholics find this disagreeable.

hey i got it after reading a few more of your posts which were after your response to me.
the one thing that i didn’t really understand was you stated to the effect, that person pretending to be a christian says to themselves if i just stopped doing this/that i would be a better christian. now if a person was merely putting on a show they would not recoginise this/that as improper.
Rather a real christian would seek to remove this/that from their life in order to be a better christian. How else does one get closer to God but by repenting. And in order to repent one needs to recognise what needs to be repented of.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

Though I am a shameful sinner, I am free from the guilt of my sin because I accept the free gift of redemption offered by Jesus to all. I have the real presence of Christ in my mind and in my heart. Is there some sacrament, some initiation, some work I can add to what Jesus has already done for me? What? What can I add to what Jesus has already done? Please name it.

Yes, you can add to what Jesus has done by having a relationship with his Church as he intended. You could comsume his body and blood, as he intended. You could confess your sins and be absolved, as he intended. You could participate in real worship, the sacrifice of the Mass, as he intended.

It is obvious that you are sincere and have a deep love for our Lord. But he is calling you to a much deeper relationship with him; one that you know nothing about. The fact that you say you are saved is, in Catholic terms, a sin of presumption. We are confident of our salvation but know that we must run the race to the finish and work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

May I ask just this one simple question? Why do you think Jesus started a Church and why do you not believe it is important to belong to it?

Thanks.

 

[ltwin]

I think he grasped it just fine. I think you are not grasping his point.

Just an observation.

Another observation is that there are those who say, “Being in a garage does not make you a car. Therefore, being in a Church does not make you a Christian.”

(Implication: People who go to Church are not “really” Christians. The truly lofty among us have better things to do on Sundays than put on beautiful clothes and hang around in a beautiful building praising their Creator in word and song. Because only fake Christians would ever do that. To impress … somebody … but not God, apparently, since they don’t even believe in Him … even though He really is the only one who cares at all … )

I say, if you were a car, and you did not go to the garage once a week to be filled up with gas, you would not remain a car for very many weeks - indeed, it would not be long before you became a rusty lawn ornament. You would have to “act like a car” in order to keep continuing to “be a car.”

In the same way, Christians who don’t attend weekly services in Church eventually cease to be Christians. Acting like a Christian is how you remain a Christian, once you have begun.

I get his point just fine. I’ve repeatedly said that acts are important, and that Christians should act like Christians. But I’m not the one who spent several pages probing into what someone else meant by a slogan that, to be honest, is self explanatory. I suppose that I need to write a book length dissertation on what it means to be a Christian and how the true Christian life is a life of faith and penitence and the pursuit of holiness and how one does not negate or override the other. But that wouldn’t fit within the space that Catholic Answers allows us to place our quotes, slogans, and words to live by.

 

[ltwin]

hey i got it after reading a few more of your posts which were after your response to me.
the one thing that i didn’t really understand was you stated to the effect, that person pretending to be a christian says to themselves if i just stopped doing this/that i would be a better christian. now if a person was merely putting on a show they would not recoginise this/that as improper.

Not really sure where I said that. But I think that if a person puts on a show then they know they are putting on a show. The question is do they have godly sorrow for knowingly putting on a religious show and then truly repent of having done that in the past and then go forth to act with integrity.

Rather a real christian would seek to remove this/that from their life in order to be a better christian. How else does one get closer to God but by repenting. And in order to repent one needs to recognise what needs to be repented of.

That’s been the thrust of all my posts. Living a life of faith and repentance and love for God.

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t consider myself catholic, protestant or maybe maybe not evangelical, yet I am a christian because I believe in Jesus. My relationship to Jesus is not encumbered by labels. I am free from that stuff. I do belong to his ecclesia but not an institution. My deal/your deal is a one on one deal with Jesus. To put anything in between it to usurp the headship of Jesus Christ.

Heeeey Roostah, ya came back.
Didn’t mean to scare you away dude.
You got the documentation I asked for?

 

[Porknpie]

Hi Aramis,

Are you sure you meant John 23? I can’t find that in the bible.

I’m not sure what you mean by cafeteria biblical reading? I’m always on guard that I, or the preacher might engage in “pick and choose” with the scriptures to prove a point.

I agree that we are commisioned…and thank you for the reminder…because I do need it.

Maybe the hang up is on the word “church”? It’s used 100+ times in the english translation of the new testament But in the original text, only about 3 times the word for “church” is used to refer to a building or maybe an institution. In the original text, about 100 times the actual word used is “ecclesia”, which means a gathering of believers. This is a major difference. Did Jesus instruct his institution (church) or his ecclesia to proclaim the word?

Why did King James and the Catholic translators chose to mistranslate “ecclesia”? They did, check it out for yourself with a concordance.

You ask how I know I’m not being led by Lucifer’s angels…sometimes it’s easy, sometimes I’m not sure, but I do have God’s Word (and a concordance) and I do have the help of the “ecclesia” my brothers and sisters in Jesus.

Why do some christians (evangelicals if you will) not call themselves protestants (or catholics for that matter)? because we don’t belong to an institution. We are just the bible believing ecclesia.

Roostah -

You have a bible. Great. It’s inerrant and inspired. That’s very Catholic. But you have to listen to an authority to understand and interpret its words.

Luke 10:16 says

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me,

Who is the “you”?

Who are you “listening” to?

How do you know that you are understanding “me”?

Pork

 

[rursus]

Many of my evangelical protestant friends never refer to themselves as protestants. Most of them were members of Campus Crusade, and even this organization didn’t really refer to itself as protestant, only Christian. I even had one of my best friends ask me “what’s a protestant” (no joke, she never heard of the term which surprised me)

So why do evangelical denominations use only Christian when referring to themselves.Do they want to misinform people that they are the only true christians. Do they have a lot of disregard for their protestant history? Or do they just feel they’ve moved beyond the whole Catholic protestant thing, even if they still are protestant? Anyone who can tell me please help

I think the most common reason is that many evangelicals believe that there is no denomination of “protests”. First “evangelical” is ambiguous:

• “evangelic(al)” per northern europe usage might refer to all reform groups that mostly abandoned catholic sacraments based on what they perceived were “novel inventions” that weren’t based upon the new testaments (gospels – evangelia)
• “evangelical” per modern low church usage means rejection of historical-critical analysis of the bible, preferring literalism and/or fundamentalism.

Secondly most lutherans regard reformeds (calvinists) as too-far deviant, while reformeds regard lutherans as quasi-catholic, not really reformed or some such, so there is less of understanding from lutherans towards calvinists, than from lutherans to roman catholics and anglicans, the later are regarded as almost-lutheran-brethren.

Thirdly what is regarded as “protestant” is varying wildly: sometimes later groupings, such as pentecostals and adventists are included, sometimes not.

(I skipped the anabaptists for brevity).

 

[ltwin]

Thanks, folks!

I think I’m starting to get the picture, am I correct in my train of thought:

Evangelicals have a certain set of non-negotiables or undeniable beliefs (what Catholics might call dogmas).

Am I getting it?

Almost. According to David Bebbington in Evangelicalism in Modern Britain: History from the 1730s to 1980s:

Evangelical apologists sometimes explained their distinctiveness by laying claim to particular emphases. The Evangelical clergy differed from others, according to Henry Venn (later Clerical Secretary of the Church Missionary Society) in 1835, ‘not so much in their systematic statement of doctrines, as in the relative importance which they assign to the particular parts of the Christian System, and in the vital operation of Christian Doctrines upon the heart and conduct’. Likewise Bishop Ryle of Liverpool asserted that it was not the substance of certain doctrines but the prominent position assigned to only a few of them that marked out Evangelical Churchmen from others.

These are, according to Bebbington,

conversionism, the belief that lives need to be changed; activism, the expression of the gospel in effort; biblicism, a particular regard for the Bible; and what may be called crucicentrism, a stress on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Together they form a quadrilateral of priorities that is the basis of Evangelicalism.

Now, admittedly, these are broad categories. However, they sort of have to be when summarizing evangelicalism because of the different streams. A Calvinist will have a slightly different way of explaining each part of the quadrilateral than a Wesleyan would. Also, the importance of each emphasis has shifted over time. Sometimes conversionism will have top priority, other times biblicism, etc.

I think you can appreciate the fact that evangelicalism truly crosses denominational lines. I mean you’ve got Church of England bishops and backcountry Baptists in America all subscribing to evangelicalism. It is a popular movement that covers the Protestant world and has been able to adapt to a variety of very different institutions.

 

[JustaServant]

Roostah,
You took off again dude.:bounce:
Does this mean you didn’t do the homework assignment you were given?
Oh Roostah, this will not bode well for your final grade…:tsktsk:
You might have to go to the principal’s office.
:nun1:

 

[Roostah]

From what do you believe you are free? You are free from the Sacraments; from the real presence of Christ; from the “foundation and pillar of truth”. Why would you think this makes you free?

Sorry. Jesus started a Church. Do you imagine that this was just some after-thought, not really important in the great scheme of things? It is all about “we”, and not just “me”. We are the body of Christ. We are in communion with each other as well as with Christ. A solitary part cannot claim to be the body. In order to be part of the body it is necessary that there are other parts as well. Jesus didn’t say “Now go off on your own and worship me.” He started a Church. From that point on having a relationship with Christ means having a relationship with his Church.

Hi Steve, you ask from what I claim I am free. I am free from my own sins because of what Jesus did for me (and for those who accept his sacrafice). Yes I am free from the sacraments, all of them…I think there’s 7 of them? Perhaps I need some help in determining which (I suppose all 7) of the sacraments I need to receive that will push me over the top to get into heaven, that Christ has not already accomplished.

I know Steve…I am not alone…I am a small small small part of the body. I do need fellow believers and I too am a small part of that body.

Steve…which of the sacraments is gonna save you? what if you miss one? Friend, your salvation can be much more assured than that.

Jesus surely did start a church…well an ecclesia actually ( see my previous posts) and I am a part of that, though I am not catholic or protestant

 

[Roostah]

Roostah,

No work can add to the work of Christ. No work is pleasing to God absent the grace to do it for on your own you can do nothing.

You don’t need a church.

Do you attend a church?

You don’t need organized religion.

Do you prefer disorganized religion?

You believe you have the free gift of redemption. Good.

How did you get this gift. Did you ask for it or did you just get it. Outline a step by step process to get this gift so that even a 5th grader could understand.

If you believe you have the word of God…Now this is a big one. Do you believe you have the word of God? Why do you believe you have the word of God?

Ask yourself?

Did Christianity start in Europe or in Asia?

Was the Bible written in English or Greek?

How is it the Bible was translated into English for you to read?

Why do you need a Concordance?

So, Christianity existed prior to 1230 without a Concordance. Why do you need a Concordance?