Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

[icamay]

Wow, the explanations here are borderline insulting and very definitely overly simplified. Many protestant denominations do believe in a real presence but may not define it in the same way, but to say communion is purely symbolic for Lutherans (WELS, ELCA and LCMS) , UCC, UMC, Presbyterians, Moravians, Episcopalians is simply inaccurate.The bread used at our Lutheran church is homemade unleavened bread that is then torn into small pieces. Other churches use the same wafers I’ve seen used in the local Catholic Church. As for grape juice vs. wine. My church offers both. There are those who do not partake of alcohol for any reason and some who shouldn’t. To say “protestants” believe is a dangerous thing. It’s like thinking you know a culture after speaking to one member or one subset.

The Presbyterian stance is not inaccurate.

When Presbyterians take communion, our pastor simply says that Christ says “Do this in memory of me.” The Presbytery also rejects that members of the ministry have the power to evoke God into our sacraments, as God is already inherent in us as human beings. You will find this all through the General Assembly minutes, just as this section reads:

“Recognition of the freedom of the Spirit makes clear that baptism like the eucharist is “not a magical or mechanical action” (Cf.Commentary on E.14). The reality of new life is initiated by God and is manifested in and through baptism (Cf. B.5,7).” (Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry (Faith and Order Paper No. 111))

Furthermore, our GA refers to the Eucharist as a “celebration”, as here:

“Weekly celebration of Eucharist in every Presbyterian congregation is unlikely, but celebration of the Lord’s Supper each Lord’s Day is a possibility in every presbytery. A presbytery can ensure that the Lord’s Supper is celebrated in at least one of its churches each Lord’s Day. The designated church can understand its celebration “on behalf of” the whole presbytery, including in its worship prayers for the presbytery and its congregations. A presbytery might provide a special communion set to be used in t he church that celebrates the Eucharist for the whole body. Other means may be devised to proclaim that “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body” (1 Cor. 10:17). 566 2003” (GA Minutes Item 10-07. Presbytery Celebration of the Lord’s Supper in One Church Each Lord’s Day.)

Do not misunderstand me - I do not believe in this. I identify myself here as a Presbyterian because it is the church I was baptised into after leaving the Fundamental movement, and the faith that I studied for years. I do not feel right calling myself a “convert” because I have not yet begun the RCIA program here.

 

[Publisher]

Yes, yes - and I’m sure they did the same thing in the 1st century when making their “unfermented wine” . . .

/B]

Question…does the Catholic church have in it’s possession the method and process used in Jesus’ day to make wine…AND dogmatically declare that “this and only this is the proper way to make wine”?

Just curious

 

[ChadS]

Question…does the Catholic church have in it’s possession the method and process used in Jesus’ day to make wine…AND dogmatically declare that “this and only this is the proper way to make wine”?

Just curious

I believe the answer to your question is no. The Church doesn’t say it has to be made according to some 1st century recipe. All it says that the wine used at communion must be made of grapes and has undergone fermentation. The wine, I believe, is not to be sweetened or contain other preservatives and must be unspoiled.

It seems that there isn’t a lot that the wine has to be to be considered fit for liturgical use.

ChadS

 

[wmscott]

I believe the answer to your question is no. The Church doesn’t say it has to be made according to some 1st century recipe. All it says that the wine used at communion must be made of grapes and has undergone fermentation. The wine, I believe, is not to be sweetened or contain other preservatives and must be unspoiled.

It seems that there isn’t a lot that the wine has to be to be considered fit for liturgical use.

ChadS

I am not sure if this is correct but I was under the impression that the wine was to be 12% by volume

 

[Publisher]

I believe the answer to your question is no. The Church doesn’t say it has to be made according to some 1st century recipe. All it says that the wine used at communion must be made of grapes and has undergone fermentation. The wine, I believe, is not to be sweetened or contain other preservatives and must be unspoiled.

It seems that there isn’t a lot that the wine has to be to be considered fit for liturgical use.

ChadS

My question was “tongue in cheek”…friend Elvisman’s statement concerning the “recipe” for unfermenting wine being handed down from the first century just touched my “irony button” is all.

 

[rinnie]

Presbyterians do communion once a month with bread (I’ve been to a few with wafers) and grape juice. And we don’t go up for communion, it is passed through the pews.

As stated before, Protestants believe the communion is symbolic. It is one of only two sacraments.

Yes this I agree with. But can I ask a honest question? What is the purpose of having it if it is only symbolic anyway?

 

[icamay]

Yes this I agree with. But can I ask a honest question? What is the purpose of having it if it is only symbolic anyway?

I have the same question. I guess it’s suppose to symbolize our oneness as Christians? I grew up learning that it was one of our Sacraments, but then when I got far enough to study beyond the standard catechism and Confessions of Faith, I was disheartened to learn that the GA sees this and baptism as merely symbolic. And when I ask questions like this, I am told “you sound like a Catholic”.

 

[elvisman]

Question…does the Catholic church have in it’s possession the method and process used in Jesus’ day to make wine…AND dogmatically declare that “this and only this is the proper way to make wine”?

Just curious

It doesn’t have to. The Bible clearly speaks of wine and drunkenness (**Prov. 23:20, Ephesians 5:18, I Tim. 3:8; Tit.2:3). It also speaks of the effects of wine in a more positive sense (**John 2:10, **Ps. 104:14-15). From ALL of these passages, we know that wine altered the mind, so it couldn’t have been grape juice.

---

The Church doesn’t need to assert, dogmatically that wine should only be made ONE way any more than it must assert that all spaghetti sauce must be made of the same ingredients . . .

 

[ChadS]

I am not sure if this is correct but I was under the impression that the wine was to be 12% by volume

I think I heard a similar figure at one time too.

ChadS

 

[ChadS]

My question was “tongue in cheek”…friend Elvisman’s statement concerning the “recipe” for unfermenting wine being handed down from the first century just touched my “irony button” is all.

Leave it up to me to answer a tongue in cheek question seriously.

ChadS

 

[ForeverGrace]

Hmmm. Some Protestants** do use wine**. Some use unleavened bread, some crackers, etc. It is true, that in general, Baptists have a poor view of wine or any substance that can lead to addiction. It’s more of a cultural issue within their churches. I’ve never heard a protestant say that scripture prohibits alcohol, only that scripture defines drunkeness as sin.

Many Protestants do use alcohol, especially the more liberal denominations.

The way communion is served also varies. Some churches use individual thimble-sized cups, others a shared goblet. My own church uses the individual cups to eliminate the spread of contagious diseases. The down side is that all the little cups have to hand washed and that can be a very time-consuming chore. Either way, each autonomous body handles this the way they think best.

I appreciate the question and the way it was offered.

 

[veilofveronica]

Thank you, all, for your responses.

Admittedly, I’ve never been to a Protestant communion service. I’ve been to: A United Church of Canada service (where there was no Communion), an Anglican and a Lutheran funeral, and a Pentecostal service (A Saturday night “praise” service and a Sunday morning one, where I left during communion as I knew I could not partake of it, so I didn’t see what was done.). I was curious.

I was reading “Charisma” magazine (An evangelical magazine) and saw an ad for something called the “celebration cup” where it’s a small, disposable cup that has a “wafer and wine” in one, sealed cup for protestant communion services and it reminded me. How different this is from Catholic services, so it made me curious.

Thanks and God Bless.

 

[Publisher]

Yes this I agree with. But can I ask a honest question? What is the purpose of having it if it is only symbolic anyway?

Exactly, this is a very “Quaker” understanding of the sacraments/ordinances.

Why have “symbols” of one’s belief when that very belief is to be incarnated into our daily lives…not in symbols but in Reality, being leaven in a world that needs the Peace we offer.

 

[Spirithound]

The Church doesn’t say it has to be made according to some 1st century recipe. All it says that the wine used at communion must be made of grapes and has undergone fermentation. The wine, I believe, is not to be sweetened or contain other preservatives and must be unspoiled

I am not sure if this is correct but I was under the impression that the wine was to be 12% by volume

“Mustum” is permitted, and this is wine/grape juice that has not fermented (very much), but has had the fermentation stopped in a natural way (I think freezing is one of the ways). This tells me that while the juice must have “undergone fermentation,” it does not have to have undergone very much fermentation. There is an upper limit prescribed for the alcohol content, but even this is consonant with the natural limit of wine fermentation. To get any higher content, you would have to distill it, which is not allowed.

 

[rinnie]

My question was “tongue in cheek”…friend Elvisman’s statement concerning the “recipe” for unfermenting wine being handed down from the first century just touched my “irony button” is all.

Kinda reminds me of Papa’s recipe! You remember the Waltons

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Kinda reminds me of Papa’s recipe! You remember the Waltons

Goodnight John-Boy… Close this thread! uggh.

 

[rinnie]

Exactly, this is a very “Quaker” understanding of the sacraments/ordinances.

Why have “symbols” of one’s belief when that very belief is to be incarnated into our daily lives…not in symbols but in Reality, being leaven in a world that needs the Peace we offer.

I agree. We not only have the Actual (SOUL FOOD) but we are taught to use that food that comes down from heaven from God to help give us grace in our lives to make that grace into a Reality.

Unfortunately not all of us use the Grace God gave us. That free will instead of God’s will seems to get in the way. But we are all guilty of it I suppose!

 

[rinnie]

Goodnight John-Boy… Close this thread! uggh.

 

[rinnie]

Hmmm. Some Protestants** do use wine**. Some use unleavened bread, some crackers, etc. It is true, that in general, Baptists have a poor view of wine or any substance that can lead to addiction. It’s more of a cultural issue within their churches. I’ve never heard a protestant say that scripture prohibits alcohol, only that scripture defines drunkeness as sin.

Many Protestants do use alcohol, especially the more liberal denominations.

The way communion is served also varies. Some churches use individual thimble-sized cups, others a shared goblet. My own church uses the individual cups to eliminate the spread of contagious diseases. The down side is that all the little cups have to hand washed and that can be a very time-consuming chore. Either way, each autonomous body handles this the way they think best.

I appreciate the question and the way it was offered.

Yes this is something I never understood. But I guess thats why I am Catholic

 

[JonNC]

=ForeverGrace;7676218] Many Protestants do use alcohol, especially the more liberal denominations.

Well, Lutherans use wine, but not because we are liberal necessarily. We use it because Christ did.

I appreciate the question and the way it was offered.

I do, too.

Jon