Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

[Gabriel_of_12]

All things God created are good, It is man who abuses them, alcohol in particular.

Wine has always been used in liturgies to worship God. The old covenant records volumes of pouring libations of wine over the sacrifices offered to God, including the consumption of fermented (blood of grapes) wine and eating of unleavened bread in the holy of holies. Wine is always used in the passover “seder” meal, and always used as a form of sacrifice unto God.

God does not change, man does. Jesus instituted the Eucharist with “wine” and unleavened bread to be consumed by the believer.

Man has changed what Christ commanded to “do this”, to consume grape juice instead of wine.

I think it is good that protestants use grape juice to symbolize what Jesus did at calvary, because of their convictions of abuse of alcohol. They deny the true presence of Jesus blood and body from the cracker and grape juice, which they profess correctly. Because it is not the blood of Christ “confected” by the Word of God.

I think its fitting for them to do so, to remember what Jesus did at calvary so that the children can participate also, without the risk of breaking the law in giving alcohol to underage children.

From the first century christians it was not uncommon for underage children to drink wine at meals, especially Jewish feast days celebrated by Jews.

Today in the Roman Catholic rite, we can recieve the body and blood of Jesus in either the whole body of Christ (confected bread in the eucharist) or the blood from the confected wine, or both. In either substance we recieve the whole body, blood of Jesus Christ.

The difference here is, from the Catholic position, in the Eucharist, it is no longer “wine” that is consumed but the “True” body and blood of Jesus Christ, the wine has “transubstantiated” into the blood of Christ.

In summary the protestants can use grape juice because it is not believed to be the true body and blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, only a picture, or symbol being used to reference what is recorded in the gospel at calvary from the first century. The eternal sacrifice that Jesus did once and for all is not being made present for the sins of the many.

Peace be with you

 

[JonNC]

How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.

this was probably the crux of the Lutheran disagreement with the CC at the height of the Reformation. It is no longer the case, as the CC does offer both. And speaking only for me, were I not able to consume wine, I would receive under the species of bread only, and not accept the substitution of grape juice.

Jon

 

[DaughterOfMary6]

Wow, the explanations here are borderline insulting and very definitely overly simplified. Many protestant denominations do believe in a real presence but may not define it in the same way, but to say communion is purely symbolic for Lutherans (WELS, ELCA and LCMS) , UCC, UMC, Presbyterians, Moravians, Episcopalians is simply inaccurate.The bread used at our Lutheran church is homemade unleavened bread that is then torn into small pieces. Other churches use the same wafers I’ve seen used in the local Catholic Church. As for grape juice vs. wine. My church offers both. There are those who do not partake of alcohol for any reason and some who shouldn’t. To say “protestants” believe is a dangerous thing. It’s like thinking you know a culture after speaking to one member or one subset.

I know for a fact that my grandmother’s United Methodist Church only looks at communion as symbolic. She has explained this over and over and over until she was blue in the face at one point. I think she was trying to understand why Catholics believe in the True Presence. I am was not speaking about all Methodists in my post, just the ones that I am familiar with in my own family.

 

[ConvertHopeful]

I think its fitting for them to do so, to remember what Jesus did at calvary so that the children can participate also, without the risk of breaking the law in giving alcohol to underage children.

From the first century christians it was not uncommon for underage children to drink wine at meals, especially Jewish feast days celebrated by Jews.

I wonder if anyone has commented (please pardon me if I overlooked it) about this being an American (religious) predicament beyond abstaining from alcohol for health reasons (ie celiac disease)…

And children in other countries (specifically in my experiences in Italy, France, Germany, and Austria) do partake of wine during special dinners. Granted, it is watered-down and probable less potent than over-the-counter cough syrup, but overall wine does not have the same stigma as in the US. Alcoholism and drunkenness was completely abhorred, as it should be.

 

[Cat]

I wonder if anyone has commented (please pardon me if I overlooked it) about this being an American (religious) predicament beyond abstaining from alcohol for health reasons (ie celiac disease)…

And children in other countries (specifically in my experiences in Italy, France, Germany, and Austria) do partake of wine during special dinners. Granted, it is watered-down and probable less potent than over-the-counter cough syrup, but overall wine does not have the same stigma as in the US. Alcoholism and drunkenness was completely abhorred, as it should be.

Oh, really?

I think it would be good to take a hard look at the facts, not the myths. It is a myth that making alcohol into a “family drink” or decreasing its stigma decreases abuse. Alcoholism has been a chronic problem in Europe for decades.

The fact is that alcohol is a drug, and there are people, quite a few people, who have a predisposition to become addicted to it. At the point of addiction, alcohol use (not necessarilyy abuse or overuse) becomes a disease, a pathological condition called alcoholism. People can predict their pre-disposition to alcoholism by taking an honest look at their own family history. Another predictor can be their personality; addictive-type personalities are at risk. But there are people who become addicted to alcohol who have no way of prediciting it.

It seems unconscionable that Christians would knowingly indulge in a drug that is capable of infecting and eventually killing a sizeable percentage of their fellow human beings. But hey, God has given us the “gift of alcohol” and the freedom in Christ to use it, right? Actually, no, that’s not right. The Bible says, “Therefore let us…therefore determine this–not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way…for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14: 13, 17).

That’s the way I was raised in the Protestant Church, and we were so very happy together. I miss this, I really do. I love being Catholic, but I miss being part of a Church where people looked out for each other and took care. I’ve seen way too many Catholics argue about the beauties of God’s gift of alcohol and blatantely ignoring or even denying the addictive properties of the drug for their fellow human beings. I think that’s sad. We need to look out for each other and help each other.

Here are some quotes from various articles about alcoholism in the European countries that you mentioned. You can find a lot more articles about this topic.

Austria:
Morbidity, health and social problems from alcohol use
In a blood sample analysis of all patients (269) involved in a traffic accident and admitted to the Emergency Room of the University Hospital of Trauma Surgery in Innsbruck, alcohol was the most commonly found drug in all groups (drivers: 36.9%, passengers: 15.1%, cyclists: 29.4%, pedestrians: 18.2%), with a mean BAC (blood alcohol concentration) high above the legal limit at the time of the study in Austria of 0.8 g/l (drivers: 1.49 +/- 54 g/l; passengers: 1.52 +/- 71 g/l; cyclists: 1.72 +/- 51 g/l; pedestrians: 1.67 +/- 25 g/l). The percentage of alcohol users was highest in drivers.

A study of 402 victims of ski accidents found that 20% of the samples were positive for alcohol.

Austria records the highest liver cirrhosis mortality rates in Europe with 47.1 deaths per 100 000 men and 15.1 deaths for 100 000 women.

France:
A growing number of French health researchers have news for the rest of the world: It is myth that the French are healthier than most everyone else because they drink. In truth, the French are drowning in the grape and paying a hefty price for it.

“There is no scientific consensus today over the protective effect of alcohol," says Dominique Gillot, France’s secretary of state for health. "The link between the quantity of alcohol consumed and increase of risk of diseases, particularly cancer, is, on the other hand, scientifically validated.”

The fact is that according to data from the world’s largest study of heart disease, conducted by the World Health Organization (WHO) during the past decade in 21 countries with 10 million men and women, French heart disease statistics appear to have been underestimated and the “French Paradox” overestimated. France’s rate of heart disease is actually similar to that of neighboring Italy, Spain, and southern Germany - lower than many countries in the world, but hardly as remarkable as reported in the '80s and early '90s.

The French drink one-and-a-half times more per capita than Americans and their death rate from liver cirrhosis is more than one-and-a-half times greater than that in the United States. According to WHO, France has the sixth highest adult per capita alcohol consumption in the world. (The U.S. ranks 32nd.) Alcohol may be involved in nearly half of the deaths from road accidents, half of all homicides, and one-quarter of suicides, according to the French equivalent of the U.S. Institutes of Health. And while coro*nary heart disease may be less pervasive in that country of 60 million people than in many others, it is still the number one cause of death.

**Italy:**Rome, 7 August (AKI) - By Christina Fox - Italy’s passion for La Dolce vita seems to have been dampened by excess. There are now an estimated 60,000 alcoholics across the country and 1.5 million Italians between the age of 11 and 24 are at risk of alcohol abuse.

Now Italy’s two biggest cities, Rome and Milan, have introduced new regulations to restrict alcohol consumption, particularly among young people, to tackle the problem.

The northern city of Milan took the initiative in July and banned the consumption and sale of alcohol to young teenagers in an effort to stop binge drinking.

 

[ChadS]

Oh, really?

I think it would be good to take a hard look at the facts, not the myths. It is a myth that making alcohol into a “family drink” or decreasing its stigma decreases abuse. Alcoholism has been a chronic problem in Europe for decades.

The fact is that alcohol is a drug, and there are people, quite a few people, who have a predisposition to become addicted to it. At the point of addiction, alcohol use (not necessarilyy abuse or overuse) becomes a disease, a pathological condition called alcoholism. People can predict their pre-disposition to alcoholism by taking an honest look at their own family history. Another predictor can be their personality; addictive-type personalities are at risk. But there are people who become addicted to alcohol who have no way of prediciting it.

It seems unconscionable that Christians would knowingly indulge in a drug that is capable of infecting and eventually killing a sizeable percentage of their fellow human beings. But hey, God has given us the “gift of alcohol” and the freedom in Christ to use it, right? Actually, no, that’s not right. The Bible says, “Therefore let us…therefore determine this–not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way…for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14: 13, 17).

That’s the way I was raised in the Protestant Church, and we were so very happy together. I miss this, I really do. I love being Catholic, but I miss being part of a Church where people looked out for each other and took care. I’ve seen way too many Catholics argue about the beauties of God’s gift of alcohol and blatantely ignoring or even denying the addictive properties of the drug for their fellow human beings. I think that’s sad. We need to look out for each other and help each other.

Let us not forget about Russia also. Their problems with alcoholism and alcohol consumption in general far outstrip anything Western Europe has to offer up.

ChadS

 

[rinnie]

No Rinnie…not every one who doesn’t share your beliefs and expresses it…doesn’t make it a “cheap shot”…I don’t take “cheap shots” at other people’s faith…if it appeard so…pleas accept my apologies for any transgression…it was not my intent.

I am so glad to hear that Pub, and I believe you, I have been talking to you for sometime now, and believe we are friends, and didn’t think you meant it that way. That is why I did not repond to it at first. But thought I would kinda make sure! So glad I was right.

Again thanks for responding back, you made my day!! God Bless!!

 

[jblake]

veilofveronica;:

Why do many Protestant communion celebrations use grape juice instead of the wine that Catholics use?

a) Historically, some denominations (Salvation Army for example) only used grape juice, because so many of its members were alcoholics. Their claim was that there was no such thing as “safe moderation” for alcoholics. Regardless of how minute the amount of alcohol was, it was considered to be enough to trigger a relapse into alcoholism.

b) American Protestant Christianity grew up in the wild west. A place where the effects of alcohol usage was immediately obvious to all and sundry. Effects that were clearly in conflict with the values espoused by the Bible. This led to the establishment of temperance societies, and the eventual prohibition of Alcohol.

Prior to prohibition, debate about Wine or Grape Juice for communion was extremely heated. Prohibition made that debate moot. After prohibition was removed, most churches “forgot” about that debate, and simply went on doing things as they were accustomed to doing.

Starting around 2000, some fundamentalists, and messianic Jews reopened the issue, and concluded that the use of Wine was scripturally unacceptable, because wine is spoiled goods. (I am grossly oversimplifying things here. The theological basis is interesting, because of where the scriptural support comes from.)

As a side note, due to local restrictions, I’ve seen churches use something other than water, wine, or grape juice for communion. In some instances it was Fanta Grape. Other times it was grape flavoured Kool Aid. In other instances it was the juice from local berries.

And why do many also use bread cubes/regular “bread” instead of the wafters (unleavened bread) that we use?

Custom:

• My impression is that it is an artefact of wartime rationing, when it was easier to obtain a loaf of bread, than the flour to make the wafers;
• I am not a collector of recipes of wafers for communion by any means. However, none of the recipes in my collection, or that I’ve seen, have been for leavened bread;

jonathon

 

[confusedius]

Oh, really?

I think it would be good to take a hard look at the facts, not the myths. It is a myth that making alcohol into a “family drink” or decreasing its stigma decreases abuse. Alcoholism has been a chronic problem in Europe for decades.

It seems unconscionable that Christians would knowingly indulge in a drug

A study of 402 victims of ski accidents found that 20% of the samples were positive for alcohol.

“There is no scientific consensus today over the protective effect of alcohol," says Dominique Gillot, France’s secretary of state for health. "The link between the quantity of alcohol consumed and increase of risk of diseases, particularly cancer, is, on the other hand, scientifically validated.”

There is good reason for a thinking person to conclude that your position is wrong.

First, I agree that abuse of alcohol, and most other things, is bad. If one is an alcoholic, by all means abstain. Just don’t try to make it a sin for others to have wine at Eucharist. I think considering that to mean you “indulge in a drug” devalues the rest of your argument.

I really don’t understand your point regarding the statistic on ski accidents. It seems to prove that most people who have ski accidents, 80% in fact, are stone sober. Not saying this is the case for a slug before hitting the slopes, but perhaps you should revisit the logic of using that stat.

In response to Mr. Gillot:

"The Director of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism wrote that “Numerous well-designed studies have concluded that moderate drinking is associated with improved cardiovascular health,” and the Nutrition Committee of the American Heart Association reported that “The lowest mortality occurs in those who consume one or two drinks per day.” A World Health Organization Technical Committee on Cardiovascular Disease asserted that “the relationship between moderate alcohol consumption and reduced death from heart disease could no longer be doubted. But the benefits are not limited, important as they are, to reductions in heart disease.”

Respectfully, please refrain from proselytizing…

james

 

[AndrewJMason]

I was taught while I was younger that we take communion in symbolism of the Last Supper.
Something I never agreed with leading to my leaving of the Baptist church.

 

[Roy5]

Many Protestants were part of the temperance movement years ago, and some still are. The most persuasive argument is that there are millions of alcoholics, families badly hurt by alcoholic fathers (or mothers), 25,000 or more killed annually on our highways (many because of alcohol), etc. - so why drink it?

Frankly, I tend toward that position myself. There is evidence that some people cannot handle alcohol, even a small amount. The churches know this, so they don't want anyone to 'fall' because they serve wine.

 There's also the matter of money. When I go out with friends for dinner, my bill is usually well below that of several others. Why? Because I don't add the cost of alcohol. Even a glass of wine - a small glass - usually cost $6-$7. I'd rather give that amount to a charity - or save it! 

  On top of all that, I've been to too many 'parties' where various people have consumed so much alcohol, even wine, that they embarrass themselves and their spouses and/or families. They undermine their reputation and often injure their careers.

  Unfortunately, alcohol has become a staple in American life. Maybe, like tobacco, more and more people will come to regard it as a risk and worse. I simply know too many people whose lives were wrecked because they became 'winos' or its equivalent. 

  Did Jesus drink wine? Probably. I don't worry about him on that score. Safer than the water back then.  

  Oh, and by the way, Proverbs 20:1 - "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a raging; amd whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

  My main point: alcohol is really a drug, and one of the most serious/dangerous ones in the world today. How many people have been killed on the highway or committed some crime or some sin because of alcohol? It is wise simply to abstain from alcohol. No big deal. Besides, orange juice or milk or coffee ir even a diet soda is much less dangerous and cost much less, too.

  Having said all this, I have been tempted to drink red wine for its health medicines. However, the same benefits are in grape juice, so I drink that - safer and less costly. 
  
 PS I follow Jeopardy closely and am concerned that often questions test the contestants' knowledge of alcoholic beverages. What a poor image to set before our young people. There are more than enough other temptations out there already,

 

[ConvertHopeful]

To Cat

#1: I did say “in my experience.” Which does not include internet research. It was actually my experience- I guess that I lived in happy fairy tale land- since you say I am citing myths. And I was a young adult when I lived in Europe (18-23) who really enjoyed going dancing all night in clubs, usually after some very family-oriented (with my family) community event.
Not sure exactly what you took exception to: you did not answer my question, but instead sought to ridicule me…by looking up articles in the internet b/c you lack the personal experience.

#2 Almost all the drunk people I saw were American. In fact, it was often the easiest to determine it. Drunk usually equaled American. Because they had never not been restricted and went “wild.”

#3 At dinner parties with a mix of all ages (even children were expected to be at dinner parties and learn how to be a dinner guest- amazing!), children were offered watered-down water. Yes, really! No, they were not drunk or caught downing the wine bottle in the closet. There just was not the sense of “lock up the liquor cabinet.”

#4 Alcoholism, as I mentioned, and drunkenness was reviled. Very embarrassing!!! Not accepted! Yes, it exists, but

#5 My question was regarding if anyone knew if people in other countries had the same discussion about alcohol being used in the church.

#6 I never said that alcoholism did not exist in Europe or that it is down-played. What I did suggest is that it does not have the same illicit connotations that it does in the US,

#7 In Asia, alcoholism is beyond rampant. Women in public drinking is considered very low-class. Alcohol is seen as a social evil. So, yes, there are places in the world where it is beyond obvioulsy a problem. I do realize that.

 

[ConvertHopeful]

that was “watered-down wine”, not water btw.

And, to answer one more point, I do think that anything that is fairly easy to obtain (which alcohol really is in the US) but made illicit will drive many to use it to excess and in secret.

What I mean is: if kids know that alcohol is banned but one kid manages to get a case of beer, then what happens? He invites a buddy or two and they down the case with as much speed as possible. They have not been taught that this is something to enjoy in moderation when they adults. Sex is probably the forbidden, untalked about subject that they are also having in when they should not because they have not been taught its value and how to enjoy it properly.
They are not trying to get their hands on a lovely Amarone to sip and enjoy and dramatically extol the virtues of the winemaker.

And that, I suppose, is my point.

Actually, it is kinda like everything pleasurable in life that American with our Puritanical past seem to not be able to handle. If it is good it must be banned!!!

 

[Publisher]

a) Historically, some denominations (Salvation Army for example) only used grape juice, because so many of its members were alcoholics. Their claim was that there was no such thing as “safe moderation” for alcoholics. Regardless of how minute the amount of alcohol was, it was considered to be enough to trigger a relapse into alcoholism.

jonathon

Friend jonathon…just a note…the Salvation Army doesn’t practice the ordinances from what I remember…I know they hold a similar view concerning water baptism as do Friends…also…I think we share the view of “Holy Communion” being an “inward occurance” without need of bread or wine…

“God’s grace is freely and readily accessible to all people at all times and in all places.
No particular outward observance is necessary to inward grace.
The Salvation Army believes that unity of the Spirit exists within diversity and rejoices in the freedom of the Spirit in expressions of worship.
When Salvationists attend other Christian gatherings in which a form of Holy Communion is included, they may partake if they choose to do so and if the host Church allows.
Christ is the one true Sacrament, and sacramental living - Christ living in us and through us- is at the heart of Christian holiness and discipleship.”
Salvation Army Statement conrning the ordinances…partial quote.

 

[Cat]

To Cat

#1: I did say “in my experience.” Which does not include internet research. It was actually my experience- I guess that I lived in happy fairy tale land- since you say I am citing myths. And I was a young adult when I lived in Europe (18-23) who really enjoyed going dancing all night in clubs, usually after some very family-oriented (with my family) community event.
Not sure exactly what you took exception to: you did not answer my question, but instead sought to ridicule me…by looking up articles in the internet b/c you lack the personal experience.

#2 Almost all the drunk people I saw were American. In fact, it was often the easiest to determine it. Drunk usually equaled American. Because they had never not been restricted and went “wild.”

#3 At dinner parties with a mix of all ages (even children were expected to be at dinner parties and learn how to be a dinner guest- amazing!), children were offered watered-down water. Yes, really! No, they were not drunk or caught downing the wine bottle in the closet. There just was not the sense of “lock up the liquor cabinet.”

#4 Alcoholism, as I mentioned, and drunkenness was reviled. Very embarrassing!!! Not accepted! Yes, it exists, but

#5 My question was regarding if anyone knew if people in other countries had the same discussion about alcohol being used in the church.

#6 I never said that alcoholism did not exist in Europe or that it is down-played. What I did suggest is that it does not have the same illicit connotations that it does in the US,

#7 In Asia, alcoholism is beyond rampant. Women in public drinking is considered very low-class. Alcohol is seen as a social evil. So, yes, there are places in the world where it is beyond obvioulsy a problem. I do realize that.

I apologize if my post appeared to ridicule you. That was not my intention at all. Please forgive me for making you feel ridiculed.

I am a medical technologist who has worked for over 30 years in a hospital lab. My life is all about research, controlled studies, graphs, charts, and measurable quantities. In the lab, we do not rely on “personal experience” because it cannot be validated and therefore is not reliable, no matter how meaningful it is to the one who had the experience…

Research, OTOH, can be validated (or refuted) by other scientists.

That is why I did internet searching for studies about alcoholism in Europe. I wasn’t trying to ridicule you or make you look foolish. I was only doing what I’m used to doing in my job when looking for facts and seeking the truth.

The studies that I posted quotes from were presumably done by scientists and therefore are likely to be representative of reality. Of course, they could be invalid studies, too. Just because a scientist says something doesn’t make it fact.

Roy5 has done a very nice job on pointing out an American viewpoint on alcohol in Protestant churches, and I believe his post deals well with the OPs question about communion and Protestants.

IMO, what is done with alcohol in Europe or any country has little bearing on what is done in the U.S. This is the United States, and those of us who live here must deal with our own history and present reality.

 

[Cat]

There is good reason for a thinking person to conclude that your position is wrong.

First, I agree that abuse of alcohol, and most other things, is bad. If one is an alcoholic, by all means abstain. Just don’t try to make it a sin for others to have wine at Eucharist. I think considering that to mean you “indulge in a drug” devalues the rest of your argument.

I really don’t understand your point regarding the statistic on ski accidents. It seems to prove that most people who have ski accidents, 80% in fact, are stone sober. Not saying this is the case for a slug before hitting the slopes, but perhaps you should revisit the logic of using that stat.

In response to Mr. Gillot:

"The Director of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism wrote that “Numerous well-designed studies have concluded that moderate drinking is associated with improved cardiovascular health,” and the Nutrition Committee of the American Heart Association reported that “The lowest mortality occurs in those who consume one or two drinks per day.” A World Health Organization Technical Committee on Cardiovascular Disease asserted that “the relationship between moderate alcohol consumption and reduced death from heart disease could no longer be doubted. But the benefits are not limited, important as they are, to reductions in heart disease.”

Respectfully, please refrain from proselytizing…

james

If people are allowed to describe the advantages of using alcohol and persuade people to imbibe or to tolerate those who do imbibe, then people should also be allowed to describe the disadvantages of using alcohol and persuade people to abstain.

If I am proselytizing, then so are those who are “pro-alcohol.”

 

[jblake]

Publisher;:

the Salvation Army doesn’t practice the ordinances from what I remember…I know they hold a similar view concerning water baptism as do Friends…also…I think we share the view of “Holy Communion” being an “inward occurance” without need of bread or wine…

Their teachings are that it is an “inward occurrence”. That said, on extremely rare occasions, the Salvation Army will have an actual communion service. (This was from the co-heads of a Corps that I talked with, over the course of several months, some years ago.)

 

[Publisher]

Their teachings are that it is an “inward occurrence”. That said, on extremely rare occasions, the Salvation Army will have an actual communion service. (This was from the co-heads of a Corps that I talked with, over the course of several months, some years ago.)

Oh…no doubt…there are Friends churches that sometimes will also have a communion service if they are involved w/ecumenical organizations. Some Friends churches…California Yearly Meeting of Friends Church ministers are allowed to baptize with water if asked and sereve communion…not standard practice…but it does occur…and as the Salvation Army, they would only use grape juice…nothing alcoholic.

 

[pismopal]

I am confident that it is the Church’s position that the Sacrament of Holy Communion is only valid where there is Apostolic succession. I am Catholic so I am not an expert on Orthodox Church but as far as the other Christian sects…grape juice or wine in a communion service would not matter…it would remain grape juice or wine.

 

[confusedius]

If people are allowed to describe the advantages of using alcohol and persuade people to imbibe or to tolerate those who do imbibe, then people should also be allowed to describe the disadvantages of using alcohol and persuade people to abstain.

If I am proselytizing, then so are those who are “pro-alcohol.”

If you re-read the OP and subsequent posts, you should see that your argument is specious. But, whatever…