Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

[rinnie]

Exactly, this is a very “Quaker” understanding of the sacraments/ordinances.

Why have “symbols” of one’s belief when that very belief is to be incarnated into our daily lives…not in symbols but in Reality, being leaven in a world that needs the Peace we offer.

By the way Publisher, I believe that this was a cheap shot to our faith, but I will do the Christian thing, and give you the benefit of doubt

Or as they say turn the other cheek, just in case you wanna take another shot!!

 

[Publisher]

By the way Publisher, I believe that this was a cheap shot to our faith, but I will do the Christian thing, and give you the benefit of doubt

Or as they say turn the other cheek, just in case you wanna take another shot!!

No Rinnie…not every one who doesn’t share your beliefs and expresses it…doesn’t make it a “cheap shot”…I don’t take “cheap shots” at other people’s faith…if it appeard so…pleas accept my apologies for any transgression…it was not my intent.

 

[vera_dicere]

I met a protestant fellow once who was very much anti the Catholic church, and why was that? Because we used wine instead of juice. In fact, he pointed out that he wished that somewhere along the line someone changed teh Bible to remove referances to Jesus drinking.

I frankly find it amazing that people who have this mindset, and similiar to it, seem to think that Catholics go to church and get wasted. Its one small sip. Once a week for most people. [Once a year for others!!]

How anyone could argue that leads to addiction is just being childish.

I went to a non-catholic service once at a christian camp and they had every day run of the mill bread and that horrid watered down sugar powder juice. I tried not to laugh, but I just found it so cute. And they didn’t at all seem to show it any respect, whether they thought it symbolic or not.

 

[valentino]

Presbyterians do communion once a month with bread (I’ve been to a few with wafers) and grape juice. And we don’t go up for communion, it is passed through the pews.

As stated before, Protestants believe the communion is symbolic. It is one of only two sacraments.

So why do you drink grape juice instead of wine?

 

[JonNC]

I met a protestant fellow once who was very much anti the Catholic church, and why was that? Because we used wine instead of juice. In fact, he pointed out that he wished that somewhere along the line someone changed teh Bible to remove referances to Jesus drinking.

I frankly find it amazing that people who have this mindset, and similiar to it, seem to think that Catholics go to church and get wasted. Its one small sip. Once a week for most people. [Once a year for others!!]

How anyone could argue that leads to addiction is just being childish.

I went to a non-catholic service once at a christian camp and they had every day run of the mill bread and that horrid watered down sugar powder juice. I tried not to laugh, but I just found it so cute. And they didn’t at all seem to show it any respect, whether they thought it symbolic or not.

Vera,
This has nothing to do with the thread, but I wanted you to know many of us are praying for the people in Christchurch.

Jon

 

[valentino]

foreverGrace:you said more liberal ones.why is it liberal to drink wine in your view?

 

[Publisher]

foreverGrace:you said more liberal ones.why is it liberal to drink wine in your view?

I’m not “foreverGrace”…but many many moons ago, when I was a teenager…my parents attended the Church of the Nazarene…a “holiness church”…which did not allow the consumption of alcohol or tobacco products. No movies…no dances…makeup and jewlery were discouraged…those faith communities that allowed alcohol were considered “liberal”…“liberal” meant the Mainstream religious communities…Methodists…Lutherans…Episcopal…UCC…Presbyterian…any tradition that had a semblance of a “liturgy” was “liberal”…

Out of these groups came “liberal theology” with their “liberal” stances on alcohol…Harvey Cox was a recognize “liberal theologian” of the day…I read his “Secular Society” when in college.

 

[jericho777]

How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.

 

[FaithJoy]

How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.

LOL Jericho777,post #777, @ 7:17pm.
Only time at my Church when wine wasn’t available is when the Bishop makes a statement when he thinks it is unsafe, for example when the swine flu was a problem.

 

[ChadS]

LOL Jericho777,post #777, @ 7:17pm.
Only time at my Church when wine wasn’t available is when the Bishop makes a statement when he thinks it is unsafe, for example when the swine flu was a problem.

I agree, we always have the Precious Blood available. Plus thinking you’re only getting half a sacrament is really a Protestant way of thinking. Both species contain the full body, blood and divinity of Christ. So, whether you take a host or just the Precious Blood you are getting a full sacrament and not a half sacrament.

ChadS

 

[Spirithound]

How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.

Each of the Sacred Species, bread and wine, become the complete and entire Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, so if only the form of bread is offered, it is still the complete sacrament.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Valentino,

You asked why I thought that more liberal protestants drink alcohol. It’s a fair question that I’m happy to answer to the best of my ability. I’ve been a Christian for more than 40 years, so I’ve seen a fair amount of protestant denominations. So here goes. In general, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) operates under something called the Baptist Faith and Message Statement. All churches that are part of the SBC agree to abide by it, and it does have a strong prohibition against liquor or spirits in general. I don’t remember if it’s an outright ban, but pretty close to it. Independent Baptists are probably even more strict when it comes to alcohol, & tobacco usage. Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians speak against drunkeness only, there is no statement against alcohol usage that I know of. From a Baptist perspective, the Episcopals, Lutheran (Evangelical), Methodists, Presbyterians (USA only), United Church of Christ and some other denominations are considered to be liberal in both their theology and their independent practices as compared to Baptists, Nazarenes, Church of God in Christ, the Amish, Brethren, Oneness Pentacostals and most non-denominational protestant fellowships.

Keep in mind, that denominational labels aren’t hard and fast and you can’t assume that one denomination is completely cohesive. An example are the Episcopals, who appear to be in their last death rattle as their churches are locked and shuttered and the most conservative Episocopals are now mostly called Anglicans as they slowly and surely leave the extremely liberal Episcopal church. I believe that the Catholic church has offered these Anglicans fellowship and some have accepted the offer. Others have not and prefer to be separate, but not associated with the Episcopals. To a lesser extent, the Lutherans have conservative and liberal branches as do Presbyterians and other denominations. It makes it very difficult to generalize what a denomination believes as opposed to others.

Alcohol is just an issue that separates people and the liberal churches seem to be a bit more open towards things that are not prohibited in scripture.

I did read another comment here that seemed to imply that those who don’t use wine in their communion have an irrational fear of addiction. I don’t know anyone who thinks that less than an a half ounce of alcohol will turn anyone into an addict. It’s really more a matter of them being consistent within their own view of alcohol usage. If they think that alcohol shouldn’t be used in daily life, they choose to honor that belief in their own services. In the US, the Blue Laws originated in this very same idea though to varying degrees.

Just to add, the frequency of communion is generally a ruling of the church body. Some serve communion every Sunday, others once a month, etc.

Blessings to all.

 

[ConvertHopeful]

In the SBC, alcohol (and dancing) are an all-out ban!

I was taught that Jesus never drank alcohol, that it is pure evil, and that one who sells/gives it to others is even more evil than the drinker.

Also (since others have touched on it), I was taught (in the SBC) that the communion service is only symbolic b/c Christ died once. They believe that Catholics are heretics (among other reasons) because the Eucharist is equivalent to crucifying Christ each time.

Recently, at my parents’ SBC church, a deacon was asked to resign his duties after 'someone" discovered that his family occasionally accented a meal with wine. He did step down as deacon and then the pastor needled him constantly until his family left. They are no longer Baptist and joined a non-denominational church. Also recently (pastor has driven off half of congregation in past yr), a family left after pastor needled a family b/c their daughter works as a cashier at a grocery store that sells beer. Then he singled her out in a sermon on the evils of selling beer (which so had me aching for a drink when my mom relayed this!!) In other words, this is serious business in the Southern Baptist Church.

 

[guanophore]

How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.

As was noted, Jesus is wholly present in both.

But your statement clarifies that you have never been “Catholic” in your faith.

LOL Jericho777,post #777, @ 7:17pm.
Only time at my Church when wine wasn’t available is when the Bishop makes a statement when he thinks it is unsafe, for example when the swine flu was a problem.

For the sake of our unchatechized and grossly misininformed brethren such as jericho here, it is absolutely essential that we choose our language carefully when discussing such matters. He has a valid point that the cup was withheld often throughout history, primarily to help the faithful to understand that the fullness of Christ is present in both.

However, it is wrong to say “wine wasn’t available”, as there is no longer any “wine” after the consecration, but only the appearance of it. He is right, no wine has ever been offered the congregation. Only the Precious Blood of the cup.

 

[valentino]

publisher: thanks

 

[ConsciousCoward]

Having been raised in a Methodist church, I can explain only the reason I was given for grape juice rather than wine.

The Methodist church was, before it was a church, John Wesley’s ministry to people that wouldn’t normally go to church (farmers, the poor/homeless, alcoholics). Since the Methodist church started existing as an actual church, it has continued that evangelical ministry. As a result, there is a large substance abuse and alcoholic recovery program in the church. One of the reasons they don’t want to use fermented wine is to help the recovering alcoholics maintain their abstinence from alcohol altogether, because even one drink can cause someone to falter.

There are other reasons, I’m sure, like that alcohol was illegal during the Prohibition, which was when most churches adopted grape juice, but that’s one I haven’t seen mentioned.

 

[Cat]

Yes this I agree with. But can I ask a honest question? What is the purpose of having it if it is only symbolic anyway?

I was raised in the Conference Baptist denomination, and in my Protestant years (47 of them), I was also active in the Christian church (non-denominational Campbellite fellowship), the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and finally, the Evangelical Free Church in America.

None of these fellowships used real alcohol during Communion.

Your question is, “What is the purpose of having [communion] if it is only symbolic anyway?”

There are lots of reasons why evangelical Protestants celebrate Communion.

Keep in mind that in the evangelical denominations, Communion is not a sacrament, but it’s an ordinance. The evangelicals do not have sacraments.

Also keep in mind that Catholics make use of symbolism all the time; e.g., the shamrock to symbolize the Trinity. There is nothing wrong with symbolism.

The main purpose of Communion in evangelical churches is to remember Jesus’ death until He returns. In the church where I grew up, the Communion table had the following carved into it: “This do in remembrance of Me.”

Because this is one of the main purposes of Communion, many evangelical Communion services are still somewhat solemn. Christ’s death is not something to be flippant over.

Another purpose of Communion is to consider whether we need to repent of a besetting sin and ask Jesus to forgive us. Often a Communion service is held in conjunction with an altar call (usually with just a show of hands rather than asking people to come forward).

Again, this is something serious and therefore solemn.

A third purpose of Communion is to evangelize and offer non-believers the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. Those who do not believe in Jesus are told that they should not take Communion.

Finally, a fourth purpose of Communion is to remind all of the believers that we are One Body in Jesus Christ, and to celebrate the “Christian family” and enjoy fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is why evangelical Protestants practice an “open Communion” meaning that all who believe in Jesus as Savior are welcome to participate. And this is one reason why evangelicals will often be upset if Catholics don’t participate because the evangelical Protestant Christian sees this as a rejection of Christian unity by the Catholic Christian. It is important for the Catholic Christian to explain to the Protestant Christian the reasons why they do not participate in non-Catholic Communion services, and that they do still believe that Christians are One in Christ.

This aspect of Communion, the “unitive” aspect, is a reason why some evangelical Protestant Communion services have a “celebration” feel to them.

Please keep in mind that “solemn” does not necessarily equate with “silent” or “quiet.” In some denominations; e.g., the Pentecostal denominations, solemn moments are characterized by music, shouting, audible praying, groans, exclamations (e.g., Praise The Lord!), and sometimes even dancing. Many Catholics, especially many on CAF, seem to have a very narrow definition of “solemn” that doesn’t allow for any kind of loud noise. But evangelicals would say that something can be solemn but joyful and celebratory at the same time. I would still say that, even though I have been Catholic since 2004.

Finally, a word about the alcohol issue. I’ve been Catholic for seven years now, and I still believe that alcohol is an evil thing and its use should be discouraged if not forbidden. I’ve read countless posts on CAF refuting my belief. I’ve talked to many Catholics in person. I’ve read articles and books in which Catholics defend alcohol use.

I don’t buy any of it.

IMO, there is absolutely no reason to use a drug to enhance our pleasure in our lives here on this earth. God has given us many good things. Alcohol is not necessary to fully and passionately enjoy these things with all of our hearts and minds and souls. Alcohol actually prevents us from fully enjoying life because it is a drug and therefore alters our minds and emotions. We are not “real” when we are “under the influence.” Yes, I have a problem with this–I think it’s wrong for Christians to seek to be someone that they are not. It is a lie, and lying is sin.

And because alcohol has been part of so much addiction, health issues, death, family breakups, crimes, and societal misery, it seems wise and appropriate to me that Christians should assiduously avoid all association with something that has the “appearance of evil” that alcohol so clearly has. There is no need for a Christian to drink alcohol. We have been given all that we need for enjoyment without taking a chance and using something that is unnecessary for life and has so much potential to cause great harm.

 

[confusedius]

I don’t buy any of it.

IMO, there is absolutely no reason to use a drug to enhance our pleasure in our lives here on this earth. God has given us many good things. Alcohol is not necessary to fully and passionately enjoy these things with all of our hearts and minds and souls. Alcohol actually prevents us from fully enjoying life because it is a drug and therefore alters our minds and emotions. We are not “real” when we are “under the influence.” Yes, I have a problem with this–I think it’s wrong for Christians to seek to be someone that they are not. It is a lie, and lying is sin.

And because alcohol has been part of so much addiction, health issues, death, family breakups, crimes, and societal misery, it seems wise and appropriate to me that Christians should assiduously avoid all association with something that has the “appearance of evil” that alcohol so clearly has. There is no need for a Christian to drink alcohol. We have been given all that we need for enjoyment without taking a chance and using something that is unnecessary for life and has so much potential to cause great harm.

Well, Jesus didn’t agree. Further, I consider wine one of the “many good things” God has given us. As to the health issue, it is now rather clear that there are major benefits to moderate consumption of alcohol.

And please forgive me, but I really disagree with the concept of the “appearancer of evil”. Something either is, or is not, evil. Many evil things show no appearance of being evil. Many that do are not evil at all- perhaps misunderstood. Mouthwash seems like a good idea, for example, but can have more alcohol in it than wine.

The problem, to my mind, is not one of people “assiduously avoiding” wine. It is, rather, of people assiduously avoiding moderation…

james

 

[newconvert56]

To say “protestants” believe is a dangerous thing. It’s like thinking you know a culture after speaking to one member or one subset.

Yes that’s is just one of the many reasons that I am returning to the RCC.

 

[JHow]

I was going to say many things, but Cat’s post beat me to many of them. I came from a Campbellite church and she has pretty accurately described how I perceived these topics from that viewpoint.

I would add, to partly answer rinnie’s question about “Why?” - communion is the rare example of Christ insitituting a specific ritual - whether you consider it symbol or real presence - I think that fact alone is enough for most Christians to rever the practice.

I would also add that, although theologically-speaking, the protestant church I belonged to as a child would not assent to the doctrine of the real presence, the phrase “mere symbol” does not adequately descibe their actual practice. Communion was considered the central part of the worship service, it usually came right in the middle of the service, it was held weekly, as Cat mentioned, “open”, but with the admonition that “…let each examine himself, and so partake…”, which implies consequences for receiving under false pretenses, or in an unworthy state, the bread must be un-leavened, the appropriate gospel texts were recited (“this is My body…”, etc.)… If you asked me back then what was the most important thing about going to Church on Sunday - I would have answered: communion.

As for alcohol, anyone who doesn’t drink at all has my respect. I don’t think they are really missing a lot in life by taking that view. Personally, I’ll have a beer now and then (Pilsner, please.), and wine at celebrations, and the occassional margarhita (Wow, I sound like boozer!).

I’ll say one other thing… the strongest voice against over-drinking I ever heard from the pulpit came from a Roman Catholic priest in Warsaw at Easter Sunday, who, in the “oglosznenie duszpasterskie” (announcements) at the end of mass inserted a long-ish commentary on how “drunkeness has no place at the Easter table!”. He commented that he knew many of us (congregation) were going to go home to eat and that alcohol would be there, but we would be best if we did not drink so much of it.