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Verisimilitude
Guest
The error of the Koran seems obvious to me, and obviously to many others, but not Muslims. What would it take to convince Muslims that it has errors?
Why do Muslims believe that the Modern New Testament is corrupted?
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Angelos
Guest
This does not prove anything since the Koran uses the same qualifiers to designate the former revelations. For instance:
Surah 28:49 Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Then bring a scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful. (The two books are the Torah and Koran!)
Surah 5:44 Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein **is **guidance and a light.
Surah 5:46 We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
Surah 40:53-54 And We verily gave Moses the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture, a guide and a reminder for men of understanding.
Surah 21:48 And We verily gave Moses and Aaron the Criterion (of right and wrong) and a light and a Reminder for those who keep from evil.
Muslims have weak arguments that deliberately disregard and pervert some verses in their own scripture.
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hamba2han
Guest
They are NOT the same because there is simply no ‘isnad’ (chain of reporters) for the stories of the New Testament.
Do Christians know the name and the moral character of the person(s) who witnessed the alleged crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh)?
Do Christians know the name and the moral character of the person who recorded their testimony and henceforth the name and moral character of every person along the chain of narration right up to the point in time when this alleged crucifixion was recorded in the Bible?
And finally, do Christians even know the names and the moral character of the people who actually wrote the Bible??
If not, then how can you say that the New Testament and the authentic ahadith are the same?
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Angelos
Guest
Read the New Testament if you are honestly curious about the names and moral characters of the people witnessing to Jesus. The truth is out there!
Finally, the greatest and most reliable chain of reporter for us is the very Church established by Christ Himself.
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hamba2han
Guest
The Qur’an does indeed claim that it is the verbatim Speech of God.
"Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy." … (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)
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Angelos
Guest
Yet we can find many discrepancies and mistakes in it!
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Why can’t you apply that same reasoning to the spirit in the cave?
Yes, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Yes. See above.
Yes, see above.
Is Mohammed of good moral character? Because allah told him to kill and steal excuses his sin?
Who is Abu Dharr that recorded 5:2175~Muslim?
Why is ’ 'Abd al-Rahman b. Yazid reported that 'Abdullah b. Mas’ud …7:2970~Muslim" a trustworthy source?
Just because Muslims claim to know know the actual name who someone who related a story about Mohammed does not make them true. Why do you trust Mohammed or those who tell stories about him? Do you know their moral character other than what they say about themselves and each other?
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hamba2han
Guest
It is not just the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is responsible for the rise of Islam and the preservation of the Qur’an in it’s original form.
You see, a very major reason why Muslims have absolutely no doubts regarding the authenticity and accuracy of the Qur’an is that we have the eye-witness testimony of “ten thousands of saints” to vouch for this… as the Bible itself testifies:
"And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them."… (Deuteronomy 33:1)
And so, with the help of Allah, it was also due to the painstaking efforts of these “ten thousands of saints” during and shortly after the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that has enabled the Qur’an and also his Sunnah to be preserved so precisely and meticulously and which has thereby ensured that the Message of Islam will never be corrupted or lost till the Last Day when the world finally comes to an end.
As you can see, even the Bible testifies to the moral character of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who witnessed, recorded and helped preserved his sayings and actions by referring to these companions as “saints”.
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inJESUS
Guest
it is indeed a miracle to REALLY believe this sentence is uttered by God. This reasoning/argument is so flawed , so weak, so subjective that only a human mind can be behind it.
Yes we do find many discrepancies, and historical errors, and we find legends, gnosticism and apocrypha and talmud and rabbis’ words therefore it is impossible to be the literal word of God and the challenge is met.
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inJESUS
Guest
please show us that Muhammad came with 10 THOUSANDSSSS of saints and please prove to us that Muslims are angels.
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Irenaeus07
Guest
Christian are not obligated to have the same standards that Muslims have in their methods of Authentication.
However I’ve been doing research on the Gospel of John.
Why is the Gospel of John considered authentic to Christian?
There is an ijma (consensus) on its authenticity within the Church.
St Irenaesus was the student of St Polycarp, who was the student of St John son of Zebedee.
St Irenaeus confirms that St John son of Zebedee is the author of the Gospel of John, and he could have only known this having learned it from St Polycarp the student of St John son of Zebedee.
In the Gospel of John, the Mother of Jesus, Mary is reported to have eye witnessed the cruxifiction along with Mary’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. So four people have witnessed Jesus on the Cross. (refer to John 19:25-26)
It is also a known fact that St John son of Zebedee knew Mary, the mother of Jesus.
So eventhough St John did not witness the cruxifiction himself, he has indeed heard it from Mary the Mother of Jesus as well as the other four Marys that were present, and Mary the Mother of Jesus is considered a reliable witness by consensus of the Church.
The Gospel of John is not only considered authentic by consensus of the Church but also the heretical Christian group known as the Gnostics.
So I have provided an isnad, chain of transmission.
Mary the Mother of Jesus is considered upright by consenus of the Church, not only the church by the Quran and the Muslims themselves.
Mary the Mother of Jesus is considered upright by the church.
**John **son of Zebedee, disciples of Jesus is considered upright by the church
Polycarp, student of St John, is considered upright by the church.
Irenaeus, student of Polycarp, is considered upright by the church.
I provided solid evidence for the authenticity of the Gospel of John, according to Islamic standards. I have not studied the other Gospels yet, but I will, Lord Willings. But known the less, the New Testament is considered authentic by the Church.
In regards to the Old Testament, during Jesus time, there were two main versions of the Old Testament around, a Hebrew text and a Greek Text, known as the Septugent, translated from the Hebrew by Jews. Jesus was known to have quoted from both, the public language of that time was Greek.
There is no evidence that indicates the Jesus in away considered the Septugent (Greek Old Testament) to have been corrupted in anyway. And the Greek Old Testament still exist today. It is unfortunate that the Hebrew Old Testament has not survived. The Orthodox Christians do believe that the modern day Hebrew Text has been tampered with by the Jews, to alter the Hebrew text that exist, and there is plenty of proof of that, this is why the Orthodox Church has relied heavily on the Septugent (Greek Old Testament) as scripture, one because Jesus and the Jews of His time used it, and there is no indication that Jesus considered the Greek Old Testament to have been corrupted.
Because of what I’ve stated above.
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Angelos
Guest
The personal pronoun in Deteronomy 33:1 apparently refers to YHWH: “the LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; He (the LORD) shined forth from mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of saints:** from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.**” Moses simply says that the LORD shone forth from Mount Paran with His host of holy angels when He manifested Himself (Theophany) to the Israelites in Sinai.
Through your faulty interpretation, you have attempted to make Mohammad equal to the LORD and committed grave blasphemy and shirk!!! Repent before you become one of the losers.
Mohammad was not the LORD, nor did a fiery law come from his right hand for the children of Israel.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
No, just a sword was in his right hand for all non-Muslims.
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Angelos
Guest
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morning_star777
Guest
"no just a sword was in his right hand for non muslims."ya brothe verisimilitude you are absolutly correct.in his left hand the fiction book named quran and in right hand a sword for non muslims.really terrible he was
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Angelos
Guest
Excellent depiction of the Islamic messenger.
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Delta2
Guest
Differences about Qu’ran and the Bible :
Qu’ran :
Qu’ran :
- it is the verbatim word of God, something complete, perfect; pure; unlimited; definite, positive; not relative transmitted to man…then it is dangerous not to interpret it correctly
- it is a heavy authoritative book thats takes control over all single aspects of life
- all the truth from the universe was given to a single man - muhammad
- there is no Islam without Qu’ran
- it is a man made book by inspiration of God, and assistance of the Holy Spirit, you even have each author in the top of each chapter
- The church is the pillar and ground of the truth not the bible because the writtings CAN KILL if wrong interpreted
- The church being the pillar and the truth, made the bible, and it was not the bible who made the church
- the bible doesn’t have any authority over the church, since it can be interpreted in several ways, but rather it is the traditions and magesterium - all the teachings transmitted over generations, that owns authority over the bible
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Irenaeus07
Guest
Yet there are several interpretation of the Quran. Muslims act as if the Quran is so clear, yet there are many different interpretations of the Quran. I could provide several example"
Sura 5:6
It says if you touch a woman you have to make wudu.
The scholars of Islam have differed as to what touch (lamastu) means.
Abu Hanafi, intrepreted touch to mean sexual intercourse.
Shafi, interpreted touch to mean literal touch.
Malik, interpreted touch to mean touch with sexual desire.
Yet the Quran says, “These are the verses of the Book - of a Qur’an that is clear and makes things clear.” [15:1]
If it is so clear, than why the different explanation of this word “touch.”
I know the answer, I don’t know Arabic.
“We have made it an Arabic Qur’an, that you may (use your mind,) understand (it and become intelligent and wise).” [43:3]
"(It is) a Qur’an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): in order that they may keep from deviation. " [39:28]
Yet if you do research as to why these Muslims differed on this particular verse it is related to their knowledge of the Arabic language.
Touch in Arabic can mean the literal touch or sexual intercourse. So which is it???
Bible :
What is your point?
What does this mean???
This is no difference than in Islam. The scholars are the authority in how the Quran is suppose to be interpreted. Scholars are men, the Church is made up of men. There is no difference, so what is your point?
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paarsurrey
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paarsurrey
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