Why Do Non-Catholics Do Such A Better Job with Worship?

[ClamDigger]

Walk into most Catholic parishes just before Mass and there is a great deal of talking and back-slapping going on. That’s hardly low key or spiritual. The silence I felt in that other church was, however.

That’s so weird that you would say that (at least, it is to me)! I’ve never experienced that at any Catholic church!

 

[ConstantineTG]

And externals are HUGELY important! I haven’t heard the comment “its all externals” as if they were not important for a very long time.

The different DLs have some gorgeous music. Unfortunately in some tiny Eastern Catholic parishes, they have the same problem that plagues much of the Latin Rite – not enough people sing.

Externals should connect you to the hidden reality. Same reason with the Sacraments that if the matter is invalid, the Sacrament is invalid. Not because Christ can’t turn anything else into His body. Didn’t the devil know that Christ can turn stone into bread? But if you don’t use the proper matter, then the spiritual reality loses meaning. If you baptize with orange juice instead of water, its not like the Holy Spirit can be limited by it. But again because the external doesn’t connect with the internal reality, then the internal reality is not present.

Same with Liturgy. Protestant services, especially those of the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, are filled with pageantry. They are entertaining indeed. But spiritually, they do not compare to a true Liturgy. No amount of good singing or dressing up will make up for the lack of spirituality.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Please don’t try to divert what we are talking about. Worship is NOT a zero-sum game. There is no law that says we cannot have a valid Catholic sacrificial liturgy AND all the positive things people have experienced in non-Catholic worship services.

It depends. If what you ask for is not an element in a Liturgy, then what is in a non-Catholic worship service can never be integrated into a Catholic Liturgy. We have the Charismatic Movement in the Church which does resemble a Pentecostal service. But in no way it replaces the Mass. Charismatic Catholics still are required to go to a Mass which is in accordance with the GIRM.

Yeah, God blessed Catholic Christians ESPECIALLY DEEPLY. That’s not in dispute. This is never more true then when one takes part in a Catholic sacrificial liturgy. What that special blessing DID NOT DO is relieve Catholics of doing/acting their very best at such liturgies.

Furthermore, being so deeply blessed in this area is also not an excuse for our often inferior behavior when compared to some of our non-Catholic brethren. Quite the contrary, I submit that it demands MORE from us Catholics.

FWIW I didn’t experience much “fervor” during my visit to that Protestant parish. What I experienced was what seemed to be a parish run better than any Catholic parish I have ever been exposed to.

I’m sure I’ll get bashed for this, but in the Roman Church we’ve had a Mass which lacked participation for several centuries. Responses are made by the Acolytes or altar servers, there’s a choir or at least a cantor for all the singing. Most people just sit, stand, kneel. Others end up praying the rosary or some other prayer of devotion such as a novena while the Mass is ongoing.

Now, not that the Pauline Mass has exactly promoted increase in participation. With so much freedom now in the choice of songs by the choir, often the people themselves have never heard a particular song. Therefore they do not participate.

 

[CrazyRachel]

If Catholic churches had things like radio headsets, vans and harps and large screens they’d be accused of having too much money and being too extravagant. And at my church (which is Catholic) the priests always greet the congregation afterwards for a chat, they have time for everyone and join us for a cup of tea in the cafe or a pint in the pub on a monday night after a very musical prayer group where theres a live Christian rock band, and on a sunday night we have a small folk style band who lead worship beautifully. I wouldnt change a single thing about the worship at my church. And alot of the congregation dont scrub up in smart suits or sunday-best style dresses because they cant afford them because its a rather poor parish in a rough area so having said that I dont think Jesus would care if you turned up to church wearing an old sack as long as you turned up at all. However they are clean and modestly dressed. I dont see why the church should change her ways to suit other people. Then again I might be lucky to live near a wonderful church which I love going to. If you feel your church has some shortcomings perhaps you could suggest to your priest to start a youth rock band or to organise some fun fund-raising events. You could liven things up a bit

 

[CrazyRachel]

That’s so weird that you would say that (at least, it is to me)! I’ve never experienced that at any Catholic church!

Me neither. I’m begining to believe that some Catholics are becoming conditioned to feel guilty for the way they wrorship because they are told by so many others that it is wrong or less than acceptable. A baptist boy, who I do concider to be a friend even though he tries my patience from time to time, asked me, ‘dont you find that Catholic masses drag?’ I replied, ‘no I dont, so its just as well that its me who attends them.’ And then he tried to convince me to go to his church because “the Lord’s presence is truely with them there,” as if He wasnt truesly present at my church. I didnt go needless to say because in my teenage days I did go to these more modern churches and have learned through experience that I personally would prefer not to worship the way the guys at my baptist friend’s church worship because there’s too much jumping around and whooping and hollering and large screens with special effects and I feel its more of a show than it is worship, but thats just me. Im sure the guys who do worship in this way truely connect with the Lord in their own way because its whats personal for them. What works for one person doesnt work for another and I would never dream of telling a non-Catholic how to worship but alot of them feel the need to point out whats so wrong with the way I choose to worship. But if it was good enough for the deciples and the amaizing early Christians who were bravely martyred for their faith in the coliseum then its certainly good enough for little old me.

Externals should connect you to the hidden reality. Same reason with the Sacraments that if the matter is invalid, the Sacrament is invalid. Not because Christ can’t turn anything else into His body. Didn’t the devil know that Christ can turn stone into bread? But if you don’t use the proper matter, then the spiritual reality loses meaning. If you baptize with orange juice instead of water, its not like the Holy Spirit can be limited by it. But again because the external doesn’t connect with the internal reality, then the internal reality is not present.

Same with Liturgy. Protestant services, especially those of the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, are filled with pageantry. They are entertaining indeed. But spiritually, they do not compare to a true Liturgy. No amount of good singing or dressing up will make up for the lack of spirituality.

Exactly. Pagentry is the right word. I went to a non-Catholic Christian camp when I was a teenager and it was great fun but, having a Catholic background, I was completely bamboozled to see that they were serving ribena black-current juice for communion. Again, I didnt say anything because that was their way of doing things but when they realised I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic Masses I wasnt returned the courtesy. Instead I was told what was so wrong with the Catholic Mass and worship by people who had never even been inside a Catholic church in their life.

 

[Phemie]

That’s so weird that you would say that (at least, it is to me)! I’ve never experienced that at any Catholic church!

What she’s observed is par for the course in my own parish and in most parishes I’ve attended over the years. Just this Saturday, two women were engaged in great conversation, one over her shoulder to the other, both after the Sign of Peace and coming back from Communion. The only ‘quiet prayers’ were the old ladies and gentlemen in their 70s and 80s.

It’s strange that people are attacking what the OP had to say. What she saw at that Protestant Church is what we, as Catholics, are called to do:

• Full, conscious, active (and yes I know that doesn’t mean we have to actually be physically DOING something) participation – they sang where they were supposed to, and responded where they were supposed to, just as we are called to do at Mass. While they may not have what we do at their service, they are engaged in FCAP.
• They kept silence before the service as we are called to do before Mass (GIRM 45: Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.) Certainly don’t see that one observed in the parishes I’ve attended in the last 10 years.
• They dressed appropriately to meet their Lord. They may not have him present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, but he’s in their midst as he promised and they care about that. We say ‘as long as they’re at Mass who cares how they dress’.
• They obviously have outreach, since they go get those who would otherwise be unable to attend the service – if that’s done at all in most of our parishes, it’s done by one parishioner for the other, not as an organized thing by the parish.
• They act as a family – I don’t see that in most parishes I attend but that can be as someone said, many Masses vs one Sunday service. We tend not to know our fellow parishioners unless we attend the same Sunday Mass over and over. Heck, I’ve been attending the Saturday Mass for 13 years in my parish and worked as the secretary and there are many names that are only ‘church envelopes’ to me, I have no idea who the people are and we are only a small parish of about 1500. Church functions attract the same 30-40 people, those 15-20 who are involved in just about everything and their spouses.

I don’t see how any of that is ‘externals only’ or meaningless. It’s what we are called to by the Bible and by our Baptism.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

I am sorry that you have never experienced these things at a Catholic Church.

I experience them every Sunday in my parish. Our Ushers, and many members of the congregation, go out of their way to greet people (especially visitors). The Priest celebrating the Mass always goes to the front of the church for a few minutes before Mass. He asks if there are any visitors, where they are from, and the congregation welcomes them.

Our homilies are great, especially from our newly ordained Priest (he can’t sing a lick, but he is a whale of a preacher).

We have all kinds of activities in our parish, ranging from “meet and greet” to profoundly religious in nature.

If you want better things in your parish, then YOU push for them. YOU greet people, and go out of your way to do so. YOU promote activities, etc.

When it comes right down to it, what happens in a parish largely depends on the people. The Priest may set a tone, but the people can, and do, make the parish live.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The huge amount of generalization by the OP is silly and provocative. If he or she wants the goodies at the Protestant church, by all means, go there instead. I’m sorry but I am just about sick of being compared to any Protestant denomination, especially the ones that are stand-alone and can keep all the contribution money and donations they receive instead of actually supporting diocesan work in a larger area! There’s a reason some Catholic churches don’t have all the flash-bang electronics! Maybe the parishioners are POOR, should we send everyone a bill for their part???

Our Church is CATHOLIC and the Liturgy of the Eucharist is the same wherever we go, apart from some different songs. I know that wherever I travel, all over the world, I can find a Catholic Church, go in and recognize the elements of the Mass. I may not be able to speak the language but I know the content of what is being done and said. In a Protestant church it’s all about the preacher and not about the sacrifice of Jesus.

Our Mass is focused on the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Period. Everything else is just gravy. And I would rather hold hands with someone in rags than be looked down on by some snooty person in a suit. No apologies for that. I love my Church.

 

[Bran_Stark]

I don’t like piano music during the Mass. In fact, I generally don’t like any music during the Mass other than traditional Catholic hymns, so I really wouldn’t like this all that much.

Um… how are piano music and traditional Catholic hymns opposed to each other?

The huge amount of generalization by the OP is silly and provocative. If he or she wants the goodies at the Protestant church, by all means, go there instead. I’m sorry but I am just about sick of being compared to any Protestant denomination, especially the ones that are stand-alone and can keep all the contribution money and donations they receive instead of actually supporting diocesan work in a larger area! There’s a reason some Catholic churches don’t have all the flash-bang electronics! Maybe the parishioners are POOR, should we send everyone a bill for their part???

Our Church is CATHOLIC and the Liturgy of the Eucharist is the same wherever we go, apart from some different songs. I know that wherever I travel, all over the world, I can find a Catholic Church, go in and recognize the elements of the Mass. I may not be able to speak the language but I know the content of what is being done and said. In a Protestant church it’s all about the preacher and not about the sacrifice of Jesus.

Our Mass is focused on the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Period. Everything else is just gravy. And I would rather hold hands with someone in rags than be looked down on by some snooty person in a suit. No apologies for that. I love my Church.

Don’t see what you’re complaining about here. Obviously as a Catholic you believe your Church is ultimately superior to protestant denominations. That’s not the point. The fact remains that in certain areas protestants sometimes do worship better than you, and there’s nothing wrong with learning from this.

And please, it doesn’t help to throw taunts like “In a Protestant church it’s all about the preacher”. Some of actually think it’s all about worshiping God, ya know. Anyhow I think good preaching is certainly one of those subjects you can learn from us…

 

[vsedriver]

We were nicely greeted as we entered the church. The church was silent inside with people in prayer before the service. People were dressed much nicer then I have seen at Catholic parishes. I noticed some older folks were wearing portable radios with headsets. They weren’t listening to music. They were getting ready to listen to the service over their radios which are broadcast in real time inside the church. I saw a half dozen vans bringing those that didn’t have another ride to the service. The entire congregation sounded like a choir. They used a piano and a harp to accompany. Simply gorgeous.

The preaching was awesome. The message was not different then what I have heard at my parish but it was delivered in a way that really made me sit up and notice. I had to use the restroom during, and walking through the lobby I could see parents with noisy kids and just passer-byers watching the service on big screens in the lobby. Afterward the church had a nice little fellowship gathering with watch seemed like the entire parish in attendance. The pastor and associate pastor made their rounds and they spoke to my friend and I. They were delighted to hear we were visiting and they mentioned my pastor as being a personal acquittance.

If a Catholic parish could do things as well as this parish I think people WOULD return. All too often it seems we take God’s great gifts (the sacraments, etc.) and present them to the faithful in such a deficient manner. I really wonder why this church does such a better job at the man-given (as opposed to the God-given) externals?

People might say that the Mass is enough. That all the other stuff doesn’t matter. I submit that people often leave the Catholic Church because they see God’s gifts being presented in such lacking ways. Why do non-Catholics do such a superior job in the things we humans can control?

and how much do these folks have to tithe to pay for the big screen TVs, audio broadcasting, paying for a choirmaster, paycheck for a popular preacher, etc?

Not all parishes are like yours. Mine is growing. The Mass is sacred, people come dressed fairly well, the church is full as Mass starts. A few straggle in but with our town divided by 4 rail lines getting caught by a train does happen. Few if any leave before the last hymn is finished.

We have greeters at the door (I know because I’m one). Our priest is a powerful speaker who can leave you in tears after the homily. But he is one of the newer men who was in the seminary at the end of JPII reign. There is a great deal he’d like to do but the church doesn’t have the money.

So parishes to vary from place to place.

 

[Phemie]

and how much do these folks have to tithe to pay for the big screen TVs, audio broadcasting, paying for a choirmaster, paycheck for a popular preacher, etc?

Why does that matter? Tithing is a good thing and it would behoove our parishioners to remember that. They want everything but they want to give nothing. In my parish about 15 of the 420 families donate in exceed of $1000 a year. About 250 give nothing. The rest average between 100 - 900, the majority falling below $500.

The local Pentecostal Church has all the bells and whistles and I often hear our own parishioners ask “Why can’t we have that too?” My response is usually “When we start putting 10% of our annual salaries into the Sunday collection like they do. The paved parking lot you long for would cost 5 years worth of the Sunday collections we get now, with nothing left to pay the Pastor, the temp office worker and the temp maintenance man, let alone the utilities and the supplies the Church requires for the various Liturgies.”

 

[heart4home]

I suspect there is a huge amount of truth to your comments. I also suspect the emboldened comment is likely true of many mainline Protestant denominations too.

Protestantism however does have some denominations that do the human-parts of a worship service exceedingly well, far better than any Catholic parish I have ever encountered. Those Catholics that deny that truth are simply not being honest.

Still I wonder why things are like this?

The type of church you are talking about is probably about 1% of all protestant churches. We live in the Bible Belt. There are churches on every single corner, they meet in strip malls, gymnasiums and movie theatres. I’ve been to churches that are so noisy upon arrival, I wished for a pair of ear plugs. I’ve been to churches where I was forced to watch the whole thing on a t.v. screen because it was a satellite church and the minister was at another location that week. I might as well have stayed home and watched a t.v. preacher.

You can attempt to make some changes within your own parish or look around and try to find one that meets your needs, but honestly I think you would find that if you went to that church week after week, the fluff and “beauty” you experienced would soon lose it’s appeal. I’ve BTDT.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Um… how are piano music and traditional Catholic hymns opposed to each other?

Don’t see what you’re complaining about here. Obviously as a Catholic you believe your Church is ultimately superior to protestant denominations. That’s not the point. The fact remains that in certain areas protestants sometimes do worship better than you, and there’s nothing wrong with learning from this.

And please, it doesn’t help to throw taunts like “In a Protestant church it’s all about the preacher”. Some of actually think it’s all about worshiping God, ya know. Anyhow I think good preaching is certainly one of those subjects you can learn from us…

That is not a fact, it’s an opinion and nothing more.

 

[heart4home]

Why does that matter? Tithing is a good thing and it would behoove our parishioners to remember that. They want everything but they want to give nothing. In my parish about 15 of the 420 families donate in exceed of $1000 a year. About 250 give nothing. The rest average between 100 - 900, the majority falling below $500.

The local Pentecostal Church has all the bells and whistles and I often hear our own parishioners ask “Why can’t we have that too?” My response is usually “When we start putting 10% of our annual salaries into the Sunday collection like they do. The paved parking lot you long for would cost 5 years worth of the Sunday collections we get now, with nothing left to pay the Pastor, the temp office worker and the temp maintenance man, let alone the utilities and the supplies the Church requires for the various Liturgies.”

Do you really believe that all those people sitting in the Pentecostal church are tithing. It’s the same thing as everywhere else. The top few % give a HUGE amount of money and the rest are throwing a few dollars in the basket.

In many of those churches one well to do family builds a wing or buys a piano. The average member is not tithing. You learn this pretty easily when you attend regularly and are reminded every other Sunday to give more money.

It would be wonderful if everybody would tithe in the Catholic Church and the money they collect should go to support our priests, both serving and retired, our Religious Education Programs, paid workers and lets not forget the poor in our own community and around the world.

It’s nice to have some extras and it’s very important to keep our parishes in good condition but all the bells and whistles should really come after the hungry are fed and poor are clothed, don’t you think?

 

[cajun2core]

I fully agree with Georgia that part of it is cultural and part of it is the fact that many protestants do only have one service on a Sunday.

Also, in response to the OP’s question and comments, I personally believe that part of it is because many Protestants want to be there on Sunday whereas some Catholics feel that they “have to” be there on Sunday. I would think that this feeling affects how a person dresses and how late they come or early the leave.

 

[Catholic1954]

Good suggestion.

For a couple of reasons. First, such group have been started and then prematurely die. I think these sorts of improvements need to be done in a fairly integrated and systematic way for them to make a difference and I cannot imagine my pastor supporting anything to that extent.

Second, even with the pastor’s approval and support there would be strong resistance. There’s strong resistance to anything new at my parish. My pastor won’t help to overcome that resistance either.

I don’t think you will need the pastor’s permission to stand by the door and greet people as they come in, by yourself. No group, no chairperson, no volunteers, just you ,doing your part to make the church enviroment more welcoming.

 

[Loboto-Me]

We must accept the fact that many, many will be lost and suffer in hell. That is fact. I am not happy about it, but have come to accept it because our Lord said as much. If it grieves us, imagine how He weeps over it.

I think our problem is with cultural Catholics, who simply inherited the practices, but without the catechesis or the discipline. They attend mass as a drill. Problem is, the mass is not a drill, and it is not catechism, it is the sacrifice. The homily is a reflection on the scriptures, but is not primarily for teaching rules of the faith.

That is a huge problem, but faithful and observant Catholics are called to be examples for them. I will not blame Vatican II, but one can certainly lay blame at the feet of those who poorly implemented the reforms, and who tolerated sloppy attendance, sloppy dress, sloppy music and sloppy liturgical practices as the “new norm”. But, that generation is passing away and reform is in place and more is coming.

I wish they had a like button here… well said, and I absolutely agree.

Also I want to say that our prayers and our postures are actually worshipping God as He asked to be worshipped. Our penance, our sacrifices (outside of Mass)… Catholics are a sacrificial faith. The way we celebrate Lent, and Easter and Christmas etc IS TRUE (as you would say “man controlled”) worship, and is pleasing to God.
I don’t deny that the “people controlled” areas could use some improvement, but I think po18guy answered that.

 

[TrueLight]

Me . Im sure the guys who do worship in this way truely connect with the Lord in their own way because its whats personal for them.

I totally agree with this. There seems to be a perception that protestant services are all jumping about and that there is no spirituality.

In some denominations, there is jumping about and that is partly cultural and partly because they believe that as David danced in the bible in his worship to the Lord, so should they. It’s about expressing joy to be in God’s presence.

As Psalm 118:24 says, “This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.” These folks don’t see worship as a solemn practice, but a happy one.

I have been involved in all sorts of Protestant services from Anglican ones to Holy-Roller type services and I have felt God’s presence in a way that bought tears to my eyes.

I felt the same way at my first Mass last week.

Anyway, just a Protestant’s two cents.

 

[Heffner]

Part of that is cultural. I am Southern to the marrow and grew up in a Baptist church where everyone was from the area. Most Catholics in metro Atlanta seem to be transplants. Some things that are quite acceptable in one part of the country do not fly so well in others.

When I attend Mass in my home town in central Georgia, I find it much more formal than what I see where I now live. People are dressed to the nines, get there early, and leave only after mingling at the front of the church. You will not escape without chatting with someone.

Another huge factor is the number of services. In a Baptist church in the South, there usually only one morning service. There is no such thing as a vigil. People sit in exactly the same spot each Sunday. That lack of anonymity enforces certain norms. There would be talk about a person who crossed an invisible line. It wouldn’t take long for a person to get the hint.

At my parish, I know a couple of neighbors, but that’s pretty much it. Few, my family included, seem to have a set Mass to attend. If we were in one spot for the one and only Mass on Sunday morning, things would be radically different.

You bring up some more very valid points.

I have always wondered about the “multiple shift” mentality we have in the Catholic Church. Build the churches big (for the most part) and just keep adding Masses. I think that absolutely kills a sense of community and breeds the sacrament assembly line mentality.

I wonder why it’s that way? I guess Catholics don’t give nearly as much per capita so we cannot afford a greater number of smaller churches. We also seem to have trouble getting priests from time to time. There are actually 8 scheduled Sunday Masses at my parish plus the Saturday evening vigil. They used to get filled. Now we could get by with 3 or 4. We should consolidate but people scream bloody murder at the thought of losing “their” Mass. Plus we are overly concerned to have a Mass at all hours of the day it seems. So we continue to cut up the congregation into smaller and smaller pieces.

A bright spot about Eastern Catholicism is that they don’t resort to big churches/hourly DLs. If the demand is great enough they just build an additional modest church.

 

[Heffner]

I totally agree with this. There seems to be a perception that protestant services are all jumping about and that there is no spirituality.

In some denominations, there is jumping about and that is partly cultural and partly because they believe that as David danced in the bible in his worship to the Lord, so should they. It’s about expressing joy to be in God’s presence.

As Psalm 118:24 says, “This is the day that the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.” These folks don’t see worship as a solemn practice, but a happy one.

I have been involved in all sorts of Protestant services from Anglican ones to Holy-Roller type services and I have felt God’s presence in a way that bought tears to my eyes.

I felt the same way at my first Mass last week.

Anyway, just a Protestant’s two cents.

Absolutely no question that there is a large amount of ignorance on this thread when it comes to Protestant worship services. If most Catholics accidentally walked into a Lutheran or Episcopal parish, they wouldn’t have a clue they were not attending the Mass.

Even the church I visited was wonderful. Sadly it was not a liturgical church but what they did was absolutely beautiful.

There seems to be a need by some to attack Protestant services rather than think about why the Mass is offered so often in a deficient setting.