Why Do Non-Catholics Do Such A Better Job with Worship?

[TheRealJuliane]

It seems to me that you are focused on the exterior. Greeters, musical instruments, I don’t even know how that can compare to a true Liturgy. Perhaps you need to learn more about the Liturgy to fully understand and appreciate whats going on. How people dress and how good the musicians are can’t even compare to what happens in a true Liturgy.

People leave perhaps because they fail to understand what is happening. We don’t need to turn the Liturgy into a show so people would stay. It was never meant to be something that people feel good about, but always a worship and extension of Christ’s Sacrifice and joining in the Divine Meal. Just because someone comments that the Mass is bland doesn’t mean we should cater to that person’s needs. That person needs to understand what the Mass is and what it is about.

YES YES YES!!!:clapping::clapping::clapping::yup: We cannot turn the Lord’s Supper into an entertainment venue. It is not meant to be that. The music and externals are only there to compliment the Liturgy. In fact I get a lot of satisfaction from my weekday Masses and there is -0- music, we just recite the Mass. No externals at all, all worship.

I think this whole thread is just because of poor education about what the Mass really means.

 

[hazcompat]

If anyone is reading this drivel it will be for them to decide

Jesus is present in our gathering together. Jesus is present in His Word. Alleluia.At The creed, the anticipation of the incarnation is so humbling. The epiclesis is the opening of the Altar in heaven. Jesus Himself is Eucharisted. Unlike the food that becomes part of me, here I partake of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. I guess we might improve our gathering together? The mass is incomparable.

peace

 

[familyof4]

It’s so funny how we can share the same faith, and yet have such radically different opinions as to the job Catholic churches are doing with worship.

Within my local diocese, we run the gamut of almost dead churches that don’t seem to welcome anyone to services, have only “cliquish” groups (you or your family must be original members of the parish, or you won’t be welcomed) to fantastic, vibrant churches with all sorts of groups to facilitate Catholic mores through out the week, not just on Sunday.

Our parish has tons of groups for all ages and stages of life, along side the regular CFF and RCIA courses for education. We have bible study, inter mural sports, pot lucks, seminars (cheap), groups for different ages (not just youths) and an ongoing call to make our parish welcoming to new and old parishioners alike. We have a singles/widowed club, KofC, and all sorts of other groups.

My niece’s parish has the best music I’ve ever heard in ANY church-- we try to trade off a mass with her every couple of months (we use it as an opportunity to share worship and then a meal).

Our ushers are out front, ready to help anyone in need, or new to the service. Our priests always make sure to extend a welcome to any visitors at mass, we strive for inclusiveness! A couple of weeks ago, I was late to mass (a flat meant I had to fix it before being able to go to mass!). The ushers and I found a place for my children and I close enough for us to see DH participate in the Rite of Welcoming.

As for dress-- It is all over the place, but I’d rather someone wear jeans than feel that they shouldn’t attend because they can’t afford “Sunday best”.

As you can guess, mass at my parish is packed, no matter which service you attend. We’re bursting at the seams because we have people who want to have a rich life within our spiritual home.

If you don’t feel that your parish is active enough-- don’t wait for the priest to do something, he may be stretched thin. Offer to help. Ask for help at the end of mass during announcements, put up a sign in sheet in the Narthex-- only when people get up and do something positive will a parish come alive.

 

[William_Pitts]

It sounds to me that Heffner is try to pick a fight. I was raised in a very conservative Baptist church. I had the opportunity to attend many “worship services” in many different churches in many different denominations. I had the privilege of hearing many great preachers, Jack Hyles, Bob Gray, W.A. Criswell, and others. Some of the sermons I heard more than 40 years ago I still remember. I do not doubt for one moment their sincerity or their love for the Savior. The highest form of worship for protestants is the preaching of the word. But I have learned that the Mass as a whole, and especially the Liturgy of The Eucharist is the highest form of worship for Catholics.

So the music may not be as slick, the service may not be as exciting, so what. Once you believe that we meet with Christ, and we receive the body,blood, soul, and divinity and you internalize that you understand and it means a great deal. The mass is for those in communion with the Catholic Church. It’s not to tickle the ears of the natural man, but to feed the supernatural, born again Christian in communion with Catholic Church.

Every mass I have ever been privileged to attend has been special.
I can only speak for myself and not for others.

May God bless you in your quest and I hope you come to answers to your questions.

 

[po18guy]

The are most certainly comparable when it comes to things like manners and how we comport ourselves during worship. The huge number of things that have been listed, from getting to Mass on time to not leaving prematurely and everything in between applies both to Catholic sacrificial liturgies and non-Catholic worship services.

You bring up a very provocative point. You suggest that “…because of competition from other denominations.” Anyone who doesn’t think the Catholic Church isn’t in competition for souls is someone without a realistic view of things.

As things become ever less sacred and every more ordinary (no matter how valid the liturgy might be) we lose people. Some become C&E Catholics. Others leave the faith altogether.

We must accept the fact that many, many will be lost and suffer in hell. That is fact. I am not happy about it, but have come to accept it because our Lord said as much. If it grieves us, imagine how He weeps over it.

I think our problem is with cultural Catholics, who simply inherited the practices, but without the catechesis or the discipline. They attend mass as a drill. Problem is, the mass is not a drill, and it is not catechism, it is the sacrifice. The homily is a reflection on the scriptures, but is not primarily for teaching rules of the faith.

That is a huge problem, but faithful and observant Catholics are called to be examples for them. I will not blame Vatican II, but one can certainly lay blame at the feet of those who poorly implemented the reforms, and who tolerated sloppy attendance, sloppy dress, sloppy music and sloppy liturgical practices as the “new norm”. But, that generation is passing away and reform is in place and more is coming.

 

[Brendan]

not by experience- but the sacrificing of chickens in a church in Guatemala was pretty interesting- I think i have been in churches in more than 20 countries by now- all different-

I was at a Mass in Tanzania when a rooster was given as part of the offetory. Most of the people had very little actual cash; produce and livestock were common donations, even at the Cathedral.

The rooster was not sacrificed, but the look the bishop gave it when it started crowing during the Canon was almost enough to kill

 

[Phemie]

I see and understand much of your angst regarding Catholic worship but I disagree with your choice of words in your post title. I don’t know what type of non-catholic service you attended but is this the norm for non-catholics to be quiet and well dressed in church?

Any non-Catholic parish I’ve been to, yes it is. They act like they are going to Church. Kind of like we used to do 30-35 years ago.

 

[PacoG]

We Catholics enjoy and benefit from far more of God’s gifts than non-Catholic/**Orthodox **Christians. I am not questioning that in the least and I hope no one will suggest I am.

I would challenge you to prove the second part of that “either/or” statement. The Orthodox celebrate the same Divine Liturgy as Eastern Catholics do.

 

[Phemie]

I would challenge you to prove the second part of that “either/or” statement. The Orthodox celebrate the same Divine Liturgy as Eastern Catholics do.

I had to read it again, but what she is saying is non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians.

 

[RobbyS]

Walk into most Catholic parishes just before Mass and there is a great deal of talking and back-slapping going on. That’s hardly low key or spiritual. The silence I felt in that other church was, however.

Well, if it was a big place, it would be like walking into a big auditorium. People don’t socialize in such places. As for me, my own experience in churches in East Texas, people were very chatty before the service. The first church I was ever in where there was quite was the Catholic church.

 

[po18guy]

I had to read it again, but what she is saying is non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians.

Yes, it was a misunderstanding of my post. I group the Apostolic Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) together, and “bible” churches/other communions separately - for the purposes of this thread.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

As a former Protestant, I remember the large churches with huge facilities, great choirs and accomplished organists. I remember the emphasis on preaching.

It is not that Protestants do a better “job” with worship. Some do a better job with atmospherics. Worship is not about all those things. Worship is about being in the presence of God, hearing His Word and receiving His sacraments.

There are lessons to be taken from this. My Episcopal parish takes care of these atmospherics, but our services are meaningful, centuries old expressions of worship as it has been handed down through the ages. Catholics who visit are moved.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think the poster wants a show and I know I don’t. I just feel that the music should be…meaningful. The effort the congregation puts into their music worship says much about their heart for worship…we should at least strive for beautiful, heartfelt music, shouldn’t we? The scripture says make a joyful noise unto the Lord! Now I understand that some people singing won’t be a beautiful noise, but standing in silence seems not very honoring either. I will not judge what is in another’s heart during mass, but I have a hard time believing that all the people not singing at all are silent because they are just too swept up in prayer and worship to sing.

Sure, I agree that the fervor of the Protestants, especially the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, is something to be desired. But all the pageantry and passion really just sugarcoats an otherwise shallow ceremony. The beauty is merely in the externals, not in the externals. There is no deeper reality in what they do, what you see is what you get.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No.

Pretty much everything man-made was executed better than anything I have ever experienced in a Catholic parish. As I pointed out in detail in my OP they do not the huge God-given gifts that we Catholics are privileged to have. But that which they do have, we also also have and theirs was superior to anything I have ever experienced in a Catholic parish.

Again, its all externals. What they do is nothing more than elaborate prayer and couldn’t compare to the spiritual reality of a Liturgy.

In terms of singing, I haven’t really seen anything compare to the singing of the Divine Liturgy. The tones are simple yet beautiful, and the whole congregation participates. Plus the theology of the songs are correct, so the lyrics are spiritually fulfilling.

Its one thing to have sweet sounding melodies, its another that your songs actually say and mean something.

 

[Heffner]

We must accept the fact that many, many will be lost and suffer in hell. That is fact. I am not happy about it, but have come to accept it because our Lord said as much. If it grieves us, imagine how He weeps over it.

I think our problem is with cultural Catholics, who simply inherited the practices, but without the catechesis or the discipline. They attend mass as a drill. Problem is, the mass is not a drill, and it is not catechism, it is the sacrifice. The homily is a reflection on the scriptures, but is not primarily for teaching rules of the faith.

That is a huge problem, but faithful and observant Catholics are called to be examples for them. I will not blame Vatican II, but one can certainly lay blame at the feet of those who poorly implemented the reforms, and who tolerated sloppy attendance, sloppy dress, sloppy music and sloppy liturgical practices as the “new norm”. But, that generation is passing away and reform is in place and more is coming.

I suspect there is a huge amount of truth to your comments. I also suspect the emboldened comment is likely true of many mainline Protestant denominations too.

Protestantism however does have some denominations that do the human-parts of a worship service exceedingly well, far better than any Catholic parish I have ever encountered. Those Catholics that deny that truth are simply not being honest.

Still I wonder why things are like this?

 

[Heffner]

Again, its all externals. What they do is nothing more than elaborate prayer and couldn’t compare to the spiritual reality of a Liturgy.

In terms of singing, I haven’t really seen anything compare to the singing of the Divine Liturgy. The tones are simple yet beautiful, and the whole congregation participates. Plus the theology of the songs are correct, so the lyrics are spiritually fulfilling.

Its one thing to have sweet sounding melodies, its another that your songs actually say and mean something.

And externals are HUGELY important! I haven’t heard the comment “its all externals” as if they were not important for a very long time.

The different DLs have some gorgeous music. Unfortunately in some tiny Eastern Catholic parishes, they have the same problem that plagues much of the Latin Rite – not enough people sing.

 

[Heffner]

Sure, I agree that the fervor of the Protestants, especially the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, is something to be desired. But all the pageantry and passion really just sugarcoats an otherwise shallow ceremony. The beauty is merely in the externals, not in the externals. There is no deeper reality in what they do, what you see is what you get.

Please don’t try to divert what we are talking about. Worship is NOT a zero-sum game. There is no law that says we cannot have a valid Catholic sacrificial liturgy AND all the positive things people have experienced in non-Catholic worship services.

Yeah, God blessed Catholic Christians ESPECIALLY DEEPLY. That’s not in dispute. This is never more true then when one takes part in a Catholic sacrificial liturgy. What that special blessing DID NOT DO is relieve Catholics of doing/acting their very best at such liturgies.

Furthermore, being so deeply blessed in this area is also not an excuse for our often inferior behavior when compared to some of our non-Catholic brethren. Quite the contrary, I submit that it demands MORE from us Catholics.

FWIW I didn’t experience much “fervor” during my visit to that Protestant parish. What I experienced was what seemed to be a parish run better than any Catholic parish I have ever been exposed to.

 

[Heffner]

As a former Protestant, I remember the large churches with huge facilities, great choirs and accomplished organists. I remember the emphasis on preaching.

It is not that Protestants do a better “job” with worship. Some do a better job with atmospherics. Worship is not about all those things. Worship is about being in the presence of God, hearing His Word and receiving His sacraments.

There are lessons to be taken from this. My Episcopal parish takes care of these atmospherics, but our services are meaningful, centuries old expressions of worship as it has been handed down through the ages. Catholics who visit are moved.

I am talking largely about the practical things some Protestant denominations do that I have never (or rarely encountered) in Catholic parishes.

Being on time. People being given rides to church. Being greeted as you enter church. Being quiet before the service. Dressing nicely for church. Singing. The list goes on and on and on.

 

[ClamDigger]

We Catholics enjoy and benefit from far more of God’s gifts than non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians. I am not questioning that in the least and I hope no one will suggest I am.
What I am wondering about is why do so many non-Catholic Christians groups do such a superior job to Catholic parishes when it comes to the things we humans control and bring to worship? (Yes, the sacrificial Catholic liturgies are infinitely superior to any man-made worship service but that is due to God, not humans.)
After attending Mass early on Sunday morning and the Divine Liturgy during mid-morning I went to a large, local Protestant church Sunday night. All the things that we humans bring to the worship (and not what God gifts to us as Catholics) were executed in a manner that was superior to anything I have ever experienced at a Catholic Mass.
We were nicely greeted as we entered the church. The church was silent inside with people in prayer before the service.

That is how it always is in the church I attend before the Mass begins?

People were dressed much nicer then I have seen at Catholic parishes.

I go to Mass a lot during the week and therefore I (and most other people in attendance) generally just go in whatever I have been wearing that day. However, at the Sunday and Saturday night Masses, I generally see people dressed very well.

I noticed some older folks were wearing portable radios with headsets. They weren’t listening to music. They were getting ready to listen to the service over their radios which are broadcast in real time inside the church.

Their church owns a radio station? I don’t think my parish could afford that…

I saw a half dozen vans bringing those that didn’t have another ride to the service. The entire congregation sounded like a choir. They used a piano and a harp to accompany. Simply gorgeous.

I don’t like piano music during the Mass. In fact, I generally don’t like any music during the Mass other than traditional Catholic hymns, so I really wouldn’t like this all that much.

The preaching was awesome. The message was not different then what I have heard at my parish but it was delivered in a way that really made me sit up and notice. I had to use the restroom during, and walking through the lobby I could see parents with noisy kids and just passer-byers watching the service on big screens in the lobby.

Hmmm… Sounds like more money is spent on electronics in this church than social outreach. I wouldn’t really like a church like this very much…

Afterward the church had a nice little fellowship gathering with watch seemed like the entire parish in attendance.

We have optional gatherings after every Sunday Mass (which I believe there are five of them) at my parish in addition to optional meetings throughout the week, so I’m not sure how this is really only a Protestant thing. We also have a community barbecue for the feast of the Assumption.

The pastor and associate pastor made their rounds and they spoke to my friend and I. They were delighted to hear we were visiting and they mentioned my pastor as being a personal acquittance.
If a Catholic parish could do things as well as this parish I think people WOULD return. All too often it seems we take God’s great gifts (the sacraments, etc.) and present them to the faithful in such a deficient manner. I really wonder why this church does such a better job at the man-given (as opposed to the God-given) externals?

I feel like I would not attend a church that does some of the things that the church in your story did.

People might say that the Mass is enough. That all the other stuff doesn’t matter. I submit that people often leave the Catholic Church because they see God’s gifts being presented in such lacking ways. Why do non-Catholics do such a superior job in the things we humans can control?

I really don’t think they do…

 

[Georgia]

Your comments go directly to my OP. Sadly you might be attacked with dress code comments, a “at least they were at Mass” comments or promotion of the EF Mass but please let’s keep the productive dialog going.

Why do you think you think the faithful in Baptist parishes act so different than the faithful in Catholic parishes based on your personal experiences?

Part of that is cultural. I am Southern to the marrow and grew up in a Baptist church where everyone was from the area. Most Catholics in metro Atlanta seem to be transplants. Some things that are quite acceptable in one part of the country do not fly so well in others.

When I attend Mass in my home town in central Georgia, I find it much more formal than what I see where I now live. People are dressed to the nines, get there early, and leave only after mingling at the front of the church. You will not escape without chatting with someone.

Another huge factor is the number of services. In a Baptist church in the South, there usually only one morning service. There is no such thing as a vigil. People sit in exactly the same spot each Sunday. That lack of anonymity enforces certain norms. There would be talk about a person who crossed an invisible line. It wouldn’t take long for a person to get the hint.

At my parish, I know a couple of neighbors, but that’s pretty much it. Few, my family included, seem to have a set Mass to attend. If we were in one spot for the one and only Mass on Sunday morning, things would be radically different.