Why Do Non-Catholics Do Such A Better Job with Worship?

[Sword_Brethren]

I want God’s cooking (Catholic sacrificial liturgy) in a fine dining environment. I wonder if it exists anywhere?

In the SSPX liturgy.

 

[Heffner]

Externals should connect you to the hidden reality. Same reason with the Sacraments that if the matter is invalid, the Sacrament is invalid. Not because Christ can’t turn anything else into His body. Didn’t the devil know that Christ can turn stone into bread? But if you don’t use the proper matter, then the spiritual reality loses meaning. If you baptize with orange juice instead of water, its not like the Holy Spirit can be limited by it. But again because the external doesn’t connect with the internal reality, then the internal reality is not present.

Yes they should. They should also be the very best we can do for God.

Same with Liturgy. Protestant services, especially those of the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, are filled with pageantry. They are entertaining indeed. But spiritually, they do not compare to a true Liturgy. No amount of good singing or dressing up will make up for the lack of spirituality.

So are Masses at Saint Pete’s…

People have been trying to discount what I and other have witnessed in non-Catholic churches and that’s terribly wrong to do so.

FWIW, services at “Evangelicals and Pentecostals” are usually very simple, almost stark…

 

[Heffner]

In the SSPX liturgy.

LOL!!

The LAST thing I want to attend is a service made up of self-important people acting in severe, self-righteous ways. You probably meant that as a joke but the idea is repulsive even in theory. Besides, they aren’t in perfect communion with the Pope.

 

[Heffner]

If Catholic churches had things like radio headsets, vans and harps and large screens they’d be accused of having too much money and being too extravagant. And at my church (which is Catholic) the priests always greet the congregation afterwards for a chat, they have time for everyone and join us for a cup of tea in the cafe or a pint in the pub on a monday night after a very musical prayer group where theres a live Christian rock band, and on a sunday night we have a small folk style band who lead worship beautifully. I wouldnt change a single thing about the worship at my church. And alot of the congregation dont scrub up in smart suits or sunday-best style dresses because they cant afford them because its a rather poor parish in a rough area so having said that I dont think Jesus would care if you turned up to church wearing an old sack as long as you turned up at all. However they are clean and modestly dressed. I dont see why the church should change her ways to suit other people. Then again I might be lucky to live near a wonderful church which I love going to. If you feel your church has some shortcomings perhaps you could suggest to your priest to start a youth rock band or to organise some fun fund-raising events. You could liven things up a bit

Stop the excuses already

 

[Bran_Stark]

That is not a fact, it’s an opinion and nothing more.

Hehe. Note my qualifiers, I’m not claiming on the whole we’re any better. But are you honestly saying that Catholics absolutely never do liturgy in an inferior fashion? Look, I know you people have “valid sacraments” and we’re just deluded heretics playing dress-up.

But as far as externals go, I don’t see how you can possibly deny that the best of protestant worship is more beautiful and reverent than the worst of Catholic worship.

 

[Heffner]

What she’s observed is par for the course in my own parish and in most parishes I’ve attended over the years. Just this Saturday, two women were engaged in great conversation, one over her shoulder to the other, both after the Sign of Peace and coming back from Communion. The only ‘quiet prayers’ were the old ladies and gentlemen in their 70s and 80s.

It’s strange that people are attacking what the OP had to say. What she saw at that Protestant Church is what we, as Catholics, are called to do:

• Full, conscious, active (and yes I know that doesn’t mean we have to actually be physically DOING something) participation – they sang where they were supposed to, and responded where they were supposed to, just as we are called to do at Mass. While they may not have what we do at their service, they are engaged in FCAP.
• They kept silence before the service as we are called to do before Mass (GIRM 45: Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.) Certainly don’t see that one observed in the parishes I’ve attended in the last 10 years.
• They dressed appropriately to meet their Lord. They may not have him present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, but he’s in their midst as he promised and they care about that. We say ‘as long as they’re at Mass who cares how they dress’.
• They obviously have outreach, since they go get those who would otherwise be unable to attend the service – if that’s done at all in most of our parishes, it’s done by one parishioner for the other, not as an organized thing by the parish.
• They act as a family – I don’t see that in most parishes I attend but that can be as someone said, many Masses vs one Sunday service. We tend not to know our fellow parishioners unless we attend the same Sunday Mass over and over. Heck, I’ve been attending the Saturday Mass for 13 years in my parish and worked as the secretary and there are many names that are only ‘church envelopes’ to me, I have no idea who the people are and we are only a small parish of about 1500. Church functions attract the same 30-40 people, those 15-20 who are involved in just about everything and their spouses.

I don’t see how any of that is ‘externals only’ or meaningless. It’s what we are called to by the Bible and by our Baptism.

Oh my gosh! You hit a nerve! My pastor is well aware there is no fellowship outside of Mass at my parish. It’s a problem. Every once in a while there will be an announcement in the bulletin for something new at my parish. It will ask for volunteers.

People will call (including me) and will be politely told that everything is being handled. If I show up for the event (in a parish of over 5,500) the same 30-40 people will be in attendance with the same 15-20 “in charge.” The event will inevitably go poorly and it will be a while until we have another.

Go to the pastor and ask about organizing another event and those “15-20 in charge” will do everything they can to smother the fresh idea. They have their turf and it shall not be threatened!

This is probably true at all parishes…

 

[Heffner]

The huge amount of generalization by the OP is silly and provocative. If he or she wants the goodies at the Protestant church, by all means, go there instead. I’m sorry but I am just about sick of being compared to any Protestant denomination, especially the ones that are stand-alone and can keep all the contribution money and donations they receive instead of actually supporting diocesan work in a larger area! There’s a reason some Catholic churches don’t have all the flash-bang electronics! Maybe the parishioners are POOR, should we send everyone a bill for their part???

NO. I want both a valid Catholic sacrificial liturgy AND the great care and planning I experienced at that Protestant parish.

Our Church is CATHOLIC and the Liturgy of the Eucharist is the same wherever we go, apart from some different songs. I know that wherever I travel, all over the world, I can find a Catholic Church, go in and recognize the elements of the Mass. I may not be able to speak the language but I know the content of what is being done and said. In a Protestant church it’s all about the preacher and not about the sacrifice of Jesus.

I covered that in my OP – AT LENGTH. It’s not an excuse.

Our Mass is focused on the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Period. Everything else is just gravy. And I would rather hold hands with someone in rags than be looked down on by some snooty person in a suit. No apologies for that. I love my Church.

I covered that in my OP – AT LENGTH. It’s not an excuse.

It’s sad to see people get so defensive rather than begin to think where improvements could be made.

 

[Heffner]

Do you really believe that all those people sitting in the Pentecostal church are tithing. It’s the same thing as everywhere else. The top few % give a HUGE amount of money and the rest are throwing a few dollars in the basket.

In many of those churches one well to do family builds a wing or buys a piano. The average member is not tithing. You learn this pretty easily when you attend regularly and are reminded every other Sunday to give more money.

It would be wonderful if everybody would tithe in the Catholic Church and the money they collect should go to support our priests, both serving and retired, our Religious Education Programs, paid workers and lets not forget the poor in our own community and around the world.

It’s nice to have some extras and it’s very important to keep our parishes in good condition but all the bells and whistles should really come after the hungry are fed and poor are clothed, don’t you think?

Ahhhhh, the “you should sell the Vatican and feed the homeless of the world” argument.

Many, many Pentecostals tithe. They treat the subject as a biblical demand from God.

 

[losh14]

What I am wondering about is why do so many non-Catholic Christians groups do such a superior job to Catholic parishes when it comes to the things we humans control and bring to worship?

Short answer: many in the U.S. take our faith for granted. Some of us even mourn it as an obligation, rather than celebrate it as a gift.

We were nicely greeted as we entered the church.

Meanwhile I’ve a coworker who left the church because, when they moved and joined a new parish, they did not receive a welcome letter but rather a set of donation envelopes. She and her family went to a local Baptist church instead.

At the same time, though, we visited my wife’s grandparents’ parish, and received a letter a week later thanking us for visiting, inviting us to return, and also thanking us for our kind donation. The letter was signed in the pastor’s own hand.

People were dressed much nicer then I have seen at Catholic parishes. I noticed some older folks were wearing portable radios with headsets.

I think this varies from parish to parish, and even service to service. If you go to the 8:30 a.m. Mass, expect to dress more nicely than at the noon Mass, which is designed with the teens in mind. We’ve got the same headsets for the hearing-impaired to listen to.

The entire congregation sounded like a choir. They used a piano and a harp to accompany. Simply gorgeous.

I’m glad you had a nice service. The choir at our old parish was incredible - and skillfully arranged. We’d have a full 12-voice choir for antiphon but a duet for psalms and a four-voice meditation following the Eucharist. At our current parish … well, the choir comprises octogenarian sopranos at the 8:30 mass, so we don’t mind hitting a later one instead.

The preaching was awesome. The message was not different then what I have heard at my parish but it was delivered in a way that really made me sit up and notice.

Protestants tend to be much better at sermons than Catholics are at homilies - this isn’t universally true, mind you. Our old pastor would often bring the congregation to tears, for example, and I once visited an evangelical church whose pastor droned on for nearly two hours in a short passage from Corinthians. Why the difference, though? Part of it is that a homily isn’t an essential part of the Mass - priests are intended to be servants, counselors, leaders, but not necessarily speakers. Remember that the Mass is worship, not necessarily instruction. Meanwhile, I have a group of friends who attended Covenant Theological Seminary (which is Presbyterian), and one of them was actually held back from advancing because his sermons weren’t considered up to par.

I had to use the restroom during, and walking through the lobby I could see parents with noisy kids and just passer-byers watching the service on big screens in the lobby.

I’m not a fan of the telecasting, though at our old parish we had a flat-screen in the commons area for overflow seating. It does make you feel a little disconnected, especially during the liturgy of the Eucharist, but I could see it helping to connect worshippers during a lengthy sermon.

Afterward the church had a nice little fellowship gathering with watch seemed like the entire parish in attendance.

Protestant churches do this almost without exception, though some Catholic parishes do, too. Again, it’s a difference between viewing Mass as an obligation and seeing it as a gift.

Which is why when someone points out the tremendous nature of God’s gift to a Catholic who has only seen it as an obligation, it becomes joy. But this is a change that has to begin with the parish.

People might say that the Mass is enough. That all the other stuff doesn’t matter.

Devout Catholics who stay Catholic often have deep personal walks with Christ - meaning that the Mass is worship but they don’t stop worshipping when they leave. Rather there are personal devotions, lectio divina, and probably activities in the life of the parish that keep them connected vertically and horizontally.

Why do non-Catholics do such a superior job in the things we humans can control?

Turn it around - why don’t Catholics celebrate their faith better? Of everything you mentioned:

• Greeting parishoners warmly
• Having vibrant and engaging homilies
• Professional musicians and upbeat music
• Hosting fellowship events afterwards
• Putting TVs in the lobby to keep everyone together

Probably only the last one would pose any difficulty in a technical sense to the parish. What we really need is a revitalized spirit among the Catholic faithful - a renewal of our parishes, our schools and indeed of ourselves.

 

[Heffner]

It seems to me that you are focused on the exterior. Greeters, musical instruments, I don’t even know how that can compare to a true Liturgy. Perhaps you need to learn more about the Liturgy to fully understand and appreciate whats going on. How people dress and how good the musicians are can’t even compare to what happens in a true Liturgy.

People leave perhaps because they fail to understand what is happening. We don’t need to turn the Liturgy into a show so people would stay. It was never meant to be something that people feel good about, but always a worship and extension of Christ’s Sacrifice and joining in the Divine Meal. Just because someone comments that the Mass is bland doesn’t mean we should cater to that person’s needs. That person needs to understand what the Mass is and what it is about.

Only you are suggesting it was a show…

I guess it must have been those vans bringing people to worship that made you think that. I feel sorry for you.

 

[losh14]

I have always wondered about the “multiple shift” mentality we have in the Catholic Church. Build the churches big (for the most part) and just keep adding Masses. I think that absolutely kills a sense of community and breeds the sacrament assembly line mentality.

I’m going to go out on a limb and argue we’ve lost a sense of keeping Sunday as a holy day. I hate to admit that my wife and I plan what Mass we’ll go to based on what our other plans are for the weekend. When I was young, we always went to 7:00 a.m. Mass, had a breakfast, and spent the day visiting my mom’s family. No one worked on Sunday, except for cooking, and I would play bocce ball and football in my Aunt Marian’s front yard with my cousins. Now, more often than not, Sunday is the day to catch up on cooking and cleaning, or go shopping - and usually I’m stuck doing three or four hours of work in the afternoon while the kids nap.

It wasn’t always this way - Mass was at one time and everyone came at the appointed time. But that was a century ago.

There’s a demographic reason behind having multiple masses. Catholicism is not native to the U.S. - when a group migrated, it brought its own priest, built its own church and spoke the language of the group who settled around it. As cities grew and populations shifted on, some parishes closed, some grew big, and some new ones were started. In the meantime, it is a better use of limited funds to add mass times than to expand the building, and the lay get used to it.

Note that some Protestant churches do this as well - though the tendency among the self-described “new church movement” in St. Louis is to add satellite churches. One of them actually is truly a satellite - the pastor is only at the main church and the others show a telecast of that main service. An evangelical friend of mine (who left the Catholic Church in her teens) recently left that church because she said she hated the feeling of going to a movie.

I wonder why it’s that way? I guess Catholics don’t give nearly as much per capita so we cannot afford a greater number of smaller churches.

It’s all economics, though it doesn’t have to do with how much Catholics and Protestants put in the collection plate. Parishes are intended to be local - you go to the parish in whose boundaries you live - and that puts a necessary limit on the size and resources available to Catholic parishes. This is also why a diocese experiencing a population shift can close a number of parishes (and often sell them to Protestant churches) to help adjust.

Meanwhile, Protestants often shop for a church that fits their needs, their understanding, their theology. In my experience, Southern Baptists may be very adamant on attending only an SBC-affiliated church, but my Presbyterian friends attend four or five different churches within the course of a year, looking for a good fit.

So you go to a Catholic parish with your neighbors but to a Protestant church with people from all over the area. This is why Protestant churches (especially evangelical churches) can be very large.

It was also considered wise in the last decade for pastors at some so-called “mega-churches” to fund their growth by issuing bonds. That’s right - bonds that investors could buy and be paid interest through donation receipts. It was hotly debated, mind you, whether this was a Scripturally-warranted use of the tithe.

We also seem to have trouble getting priests from time to time.

There is a tremendous shortage, and this has been coming for decades. Part of it is that the priesthood is under constant attack in the press and by secular, non-Catholic and other elements within society. Part of it is the over-sexualization of our society which pulls many young men and women away from holy lives - whether ordained or not.

There are actually 8 scheduled Sunday Masses at my parish plus the Saturday evening vigil. They used to get filled. Now we could get by with 3 or 4.

We see this too, it’s all related to where people live. Your community might be shrinking or people might just be moving on. You don’t see this in Europe because Europe is pretty well built-up. Meanwhile, if you’re in an area like Houston or Dallas, you can buy twice the house you live in now if you move 20 miles farther out. In St. Louis, it’s actually reversed - our friends are moving back in to the city, which has become so underdeveloped that redevelopment is cheap and attractive.

We should consolidate but people scream bloody murder at the thought of losing “their” Mass. Plus we are overly concerned to have a Mass at all hours of the day it seems. So we continue to cut up the congregation into smaller and smaller pieces.

That’s not necessarily a bad thing if the priest knows how to speak to a smaller, more intimate Mass (and get everyone to sit in the front, maybe). In grad school I used to go to Friday afternoon Mass in the chapel living room, and celebrate with four or five of us and the priest. It was wonderful.

 

[heart4home]

Ahhhhh, the “you should sell the Vatican and feed the homeless of the world” argument.

Many, many Pentecostals tithe. They treat the subject as a biblical demand from God.

And many many don’t. Trust me as I’ve said, BTDT.

No, not sell the Vatican, but certainly the Big Screen T.V.s.

BTW, you can make light of my comments, and I’ll just chuckle over your “feel good” experience that you want us to duplicate.

 

[PJM]

=Heffner;7626695]We Catholics enjoy and benefit from far more of God’s gifts than non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians. I am not questioning that in the least and I hope no one will suggest I am.

What I am wondering about is why do so many non-Catholic Christians groups do such a superior job to Catholic parishes when it comes to the things we humans control and bring to worship? (Yes, the sacrificial Catholic liturgies are infinitely superior to any man-made worship service but that is due to God, not humans.)

After attending Mass early on Sunday morning and the Divine Liturgy during mid-morning I went to a large, local Protestant church Sunday night. All the things that we humans bring to the worship (and not what God gifts to us as Catholics) were executed in a manner that was superior to anything I have ever experienced at a Catholic Mass.

We were nicely greeted as we entered the church. The church was silent inside with people in prayer before the service. People were dressed much nicer then I have seen at Catholic parishes. I noticed some older folks were wearing portable radios with headsets. They weren’t listening to music. They were getting ready to listen to the service over their radios which are broadcast in real time inside the church. I saw a half dozen vans bringing those that didn’t have another ride to the service. The entire congregation sounded like a choir. They used a piano and a harp to accompany. Simply gorgeous.

The preaching was awesome. The message was not different then what I have heard at my parish but it was delivered in a way that really made me sit up and notice. I had to use the restroom during, and walking through the lobby I could see parents with noisy kids and just passer-byers watching the service on big screens in the lobby. Afterward the church had a nice little fellowship gathering with watch seemed like the entire parish in attendance. The pastor and associate pastor made their rounds and they spoke to my friend and I. They were delighted to hear we were visiting and they mentioned my pastor as being a personal acquittance.

If a Catholic parish could do things as well as this parish I think people WOULD return. All too often it seems we take God’s great gifts (the sacraments, etc.) and present them to the faithful in such a deficient manner. I really wonder why this church does such a better job at the man-given (as opposed to the God-given) externals?

People might say that the Mass is enough. That all the other stuff doesn’t matter. I submit that people often leave the Catholic Church because they see God’s gifts being presented in such lacking ways. Why do non-Catholics do such a superior job in the things we humans can control?

While not as well defined as you articulated; I have encounterd this thought and observation mant times.

The difference is BECAUSE WE DO HAVE GOD ACTUALLY PRSENT; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity; we are OBLIGATED to focus on God; and Godly things; and NOT each other.

Anyone asociated with the CC for some time knows well that we do have felowship and are actively involved in community needs and aqctivities. K Of C, Ladies guild, Bible studies, Youth Group activities and the like simply take place OUTSIDE of Mass; which is Christ and By Godt; and For God.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[CHRISTINE77]

While not as well defined as you articulated; I have encounterd this thought and observation mant times.

The difference is BECAUSE WE DO HAVE GOD ACTUALLY PRSENT; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity; we are OBLIGATED to focus on God; and Godly things; and NOT each other.

Anyone asociated with the CC for some time knows well that we do have felowship and are actively involved in community needs and aqctivities. K Of C, Ladies guild, Bible studies, Youth Group activities and the like simply take place OUTSIDE of Mass; which is Christ and By Godt; and For God.

God Bless,
Pat

Yes we have plenty of fellowship at our church too. Tonight there is a pancake supper for Mardi Gras, and we have film nights and potlucks, altar society, study groups, etc. It’s up to you as a parishioner, to take advantage of these things. I don’t know why Heffner’s church is so lacking!

 

[Georgia]

An earlier post suggested that some Catholics seem to be only there to cover their obligation to attend Mass. I’ve had that impression too, but I thought it might just be one of those unique thoughts we sometimes have and should instantly dismiss.

When I see people blowing in and out whenever, dressed as if they are trying to show all the skin the law allows, never picking up a hymnal and seldom responding, I have wondered why in the world they bothered getting out of bed. I am sure I should not have entertained those thoughts, but I could not help it. I simply wondered if they would give that little attention to meeting with, say, their mayor.

Coming from a Baptist background, I should see far more reverence and infinitely more respect in a Catholic church, but I don’t unless I am lucky. When I am in an area that has a longer Catholic tradition than I see here in parts of my metro area, it is impressive. We sometimes visit my wife’s hometown in the Midwest and Mass there is simply stunning. If you come away without being inspired, you have accomplished the impossible. Oh, sure, they have to make do without having Southern accents, but they do OK.

 

[Heffner]

I really do wish our Sunday tradition was more fulfilling. It would be great to have Bible Study at 08:00, Mass at 10:00 with fellowship to follow. We could even have what I have heard called “covered dish meals.”

(Yes, I know. Some will get knotted up and claim that because we have the Mass, that’s enough. It’s not and it has taken a huge toll on the Catholic Church.)

A group of us asked the last pastor to hold Scripture Study on Sunday mornings. What a great lead-in to Mass! We said we would accept any help that was offered but all we really needed was a designated room, a mention in the bulletin and the approval of a pre-packaged Catholic Bible study program. The pastor at that time nixed the idea, with no reason given.

I’m not sure how the fellowship hour would go either. People leave immediately after communion around here to get preferred seating at favored restaurants.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I really do wish our Sunday tradition was more fulfilling. It would be great to have Bible Study at 08:00, Mass at 10:00 with fellowship to follow. We could even have what I have heard called “covered dish meals.”

(Yes, I know. Some will get knotted up and claim that because we have the Mass, that’s enough. It’s not and it has taken a huge toll on the Catholic Church.)

A group of us asked the last pastor to hold Scripture Study on Sunday mornings. What a great lead-in to Mass! We said we would accept any help that was offered but all we really needed was a designated room, a mention in the bulletin and the approval of a pre-packaged Catholic Bible study program. The pastor at that time nixed the idea, with no reason given.

I’m not sure how the fellowship hour would go either. People leave immediately after communion around here to get preferred seating at favored restaurants.

You need to get a spiritual director at your church. The priest shouldn’t have to lead the studies. Don’t you have a parish hall for other activities? I don’t see why your pastor is nixing things though. Maybe you should try a different parish.

 

[Heffner]

While not as well defined as you articulated; I have encounterd this thought and observation mant times.

The difference is BECAUSE WE DO HAVE GOD ACTUALLY PRSENT; Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity; we are OBLIGATED to focus on God; and Godly things; and NOT each other.

Anyone asociated with the CC for some time knows well that we do have felowship and are actively involved in community needs and aqctivities. K Of C, Ladies guild, Bible studies, Youth Group activities and the like simply take place OUTSIDE of Mass; which is Christ and By Godt; and For God.

God Bless,
Pat

That is not true.

For some reason you believe that all the things I mentioned, from bringing people to church, to greeting them at the door, to dressing modestly, to silence in the church, etc. somehow diverts our focus away from God. That’s a bunch of balderdash! It’s an excuse and that sort of thinking has damaged the Church.

Your parish might not have the drive, the expertise or the resources to do what this church did. That’s too bad but don’t try to suggest what that church did was in any way wrong or contrary to the Gospel. It’s beautiful. May God bless their efforts.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That is not true.

For some reason you believe that all the things I mentioned, from bringing people to church, to greeting them at the door, to dressing modestly, to silence in the church, etc. somehow diverts our focus away from God. That’s a bunch of balderdash! It’s an excuse and that sort of thinking has damaged the Church.

Your parish might not have the drive, the expertise or the resources to do what this church did. That’s too bad but don’t try to suggest what that church did was in any way wrong or contrary to the Gospel. It’s beautiful. May God bless their efforts.

In some ways it sounds like you would rather join that church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Only you are suggesting it was a show…

I guess it must have been those vans bringing people to worship that made you think that. I feel sorry for you.

Why do you feel sorry for me? It is not me who is seeking to turn a true Liturgy into a happy-clappy, feel-good show that the Protestants make of their services.