Why Do Non-Catholics Do Such A Better Job with Worship?

[ClamDigger]

What she’s observed is par for the course in my own parish and in most parishes I’ve attended over the years. Just this Saturday, two women were engaged in great conversation, one over her shoulder to the other, both after the Sign of Peace and coming back from Communion. The only ‘quiet prayers’ were the old ladies and gentlemen in their 70s and 80s.

That is so strange to me… I’ve honestly never experienced that at Mass! The closest thing I can think of is at the earliest daily Mass at my parish, there is a group of eight or so older ladies (and one man) who pray aloud from a prayer book together.

It’s strange that people are attacking what the OP had to say.

I didn’t attack her. I was merely stating my own opionion and my own observances.

What she saw at that Protestant Church is what we, as Catholics, are called to do:

• Full, conscious, active (and yes I know that doesn’t mean we have to actually be physically DOING something) participation – they sang where they were supposed to, and responded where they were supposed to, just as we are called to do at Mass. While they may not have what we do at their service, they are engaged in FCAP.

Everyone at my parish does these things during the Mass?

• They kept silence before the service as we are called to do before Mass (GIRM 45: Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.) Certainly don’t see that one observed in the parishes I’ve attended in the last 10 years.

It has to me in the parishes I’ve attended in the last twenty years…

• They dressed appropriately to meet their Lord. They may not have him present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, but he’s in their midst as he promised and they care about that. We say ‘as long as they’re at Mass who cares how they dress’.

Well, honestly:
“And for raiment why are you solicitous? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they labour not, neither do they spin.”
So long as it’s not flashy or immodest, what does it really matter?

• They obviously have outreach, since they go get those who would otherwise be unable to attend the service – if that’s done at all in most of our parishes, it’s done by one parishioner for the other, not as an organized thing by the parish.

It is at mine and has been at the other parish I attended about five or so years ago?

• They act as a family – I don’t see that in most parishes I attend but that can be as someone said, many Masses vs one Sunday service. We tend not to know our fellow parishioners unless we attend the same Sunday Mass over and over. Heck, I’ve been attending the Saturday Mass for 13 years in my parish and worked as the secretary and there are many names that are only ‘church envelopes’ to me, I have no idea who the people are and we are only a small parish of about 1500. Church functions attract the same 30-40 people, those 15-20 who are involved in just about everything and their spouses.

As I said, my parish does offer many gathering times both after Sunday Mass and throughout the week, as did the other parish I went to.

I don’t see how any of that is ‘externals only’ or meaningless. It’s what we are called to by the Bible and by our Baptism.

I didn’t criticize any of the things you mentioned. I merely stated that I, personally, would not be comfortable in a worship environment where the piano is played, where the organization owns a radio station and people are listening to the service on portable radios inside of the church, and where there are large screen televisions in the lobby.

 

[ClamDigger]

Me neither. I’m begining to believe that some Catholics are becoming conditioned to feel guilty for the way they wrorship because they are told by so many others that it is wrong or less than acceptable. A baptist boy, who I do concider to be a friend even though he tries my patience from time to time, asked me, ‘dont you find that Catholic masses drag?’ I replied, ‘no I dont, so its just as well that its me who attends them.’ And then he tried to convince me to go to his church because “the Lord’s presence is truely with them there,” as if He wasnt truesly present at my church. I didnt go needless to say because in my teenage days I did go to these more modern churches and have learned through experience that I personally would prefer not to worship the way the guys at my baptist friend’s church worship because there’s too much jumping around and whooping and hollering and large screens with special effects and I feel its more of a show than it is worship, but thats just me. Im sure the guys who do worship in this way truely connect with the Lord in their own way because its whats personal for them. What works for one person doesnt work for another and I would never dream of telling a non-Catholic how to worship but alot of them feel the need to point out whats so wrong with the way I choose to worship. But if it was good enough for the deciples and the amaizing early Christians who were bravely martyred for their faith in the coliseum then its certainly good enough for little old me.

That’s pretty much exactly how I feel.

 

[Cat]

I haven’t read the entire thread, so please forgive if I repeat something that someone else already said.

I converted to Catholism in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism. I pretty much agree with the OP about “worship,” by which he/she obviously means “the externals.” I’ve only been in one Catholic Church that does these things as well or better than the evangelical churches where I spent most of my life.

I believe that we do the OP an injustice to question his/her loyalty and love of the Catholic Church. Throughout the centuries many saints have loved the Catholic Church, but have protested various practices that have crept into the Church. St. Teresa of Avila is a good example, as is St. Catherine.

I believe that it is appropriate for Catholics to honestly access our parishes and consider whether improvements can be made that will attract people back to the Church, or that will make it easier for the parishioners to recognize that Jesus in Truly Present in the Mass. When week after week, parishioners hear bland music in the Mass, and pass cold-eyed parishioners who don’t even acknowledge the presence of other people, it is hard to see Jesus in this. Jesus is never bland, and He does not ignore His brothers and sisters. It is easier for many of us to see Jesus when the music is grand and magnificent (many styles can be this way), and when His people are warm and friendly (friendliness does not necessarily mean ebullient and noisy).

The answer to the OP’s question is that the non-Catholics do a better job because they have the FREEDOM to do so. They are not bound by a liturgy. They can do what they please when it comes to music and other activities because there is no such thing as “liturgical abuse.” There are no liturgy police, and although the pastor or church executive board or worship leader has the authority to select the “style” of songs, readings, etc. to be included in the worship service each week, he/she is generally pretty open to almost any style of music or any style of readings, drama, order of service, activity, fellowship, etc.

However, I believe that Catholics have more freedom then we think we do, but in most parishes, no one is knowledgeable enough about the details of the liturgy to be able to clearly articulate the freedoms. The pastor is in charge, and the content of the liturgy will be determined by him one way or another.

If he is laid back, he will probably allow a free hand in the liturgy, and the musicians will use this opportunity to bring in different styles, many of which are offensive to more traditional Catholics. The liturgy may stray into abuse with this kind of leadership, or it may remain intact and correct, but it may become wild and hard-to-follow. But even in a parish where a laid-back pastor is comfortable allowing his musicians to try something new, the “new” songs themselves become monotonous year after year, and the musicians do not attempt to try anything “traditional,” which in this day and age, would be “new” to many people in the parish.

If the pastor is more conservative, he will keep a closer watch on the liturgy and make sure that the musicians do not attempt anything that is not acceptable to the majority of traditional Catholics. The liturgy may be very correct, but because the musicians know that the pastor will censor anything remotely questionable, they are hesitant to try anything “new.” The same hymns and songs will be used week after week, often in a rotation that continues for years and years.

Certain people in each parish become “experts” on the liturgy, and often, these people are fearsome and a force to be reckoned with. The problem is, they may or may not be correctly assessing the liturgical guidelines, but because so few others have the courage to tackle the liturgy, these “experts” continue to lead the way in parishes. Then there are people (like me) who don’t believe it is our place to interpet liturgical guidelines, but rather, believe that this is the responsibility of the pastor and of the hired staff, especially the Liturgical Director or Music Minister of our parish.

I think that many Catholics have observed the “worship wars” or “music wars” in various Protestant denominations, and they are understandably hesitant to embroil their parishes and dioceses in these wars. So they sit back and content themselves with the way their parish has been for decades, and they don’t try to rock the boat and question things. I don’t blame them–the OP in this thread has been castigated for bringing up these issues–it’s bad enough when it happens in an online community, but it’s even harder to face in a real-life setting. No one wants to come to church and face the hostile stares of former friends.

 

[benidict]

They do? If I wanted to be yelled at and hear loud noises all the time, I would be Married with children. I prefer a more sane approach to worship. I dont think that non Catholic worship is better, Just different. We also have parishes like this in Catholicism. so Worship style is not a reason to leave. Peace

 

[Bran_Stark]

I didn’t say they were opposed to each other… I just don’t like the sound of the piano or any instrumental music during the Mass?

“The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things,” as Musicam Sacram says.

Why should I be the one who is ashamed? I am not the one promoting Protestant worship services in a Catholic forum. I’m not denigrating what they do, I’m calling it what it is. Its nice and all but its all externals, not spiritually fulfilling. Thats the truth. If what they do is indeed better, then our Church would have adopted it. The fact that we haven’t replaced true Liturgy with something else is because we appeal to the inner spiritual reality. True worhsip feeds the soul, not the emotions.

No one is claiming you ought to replace your Liturgy, or alter a single word of the Mass. But we’re just saying that those “externals” do matter, and have absolutely nothing to do with Catholic doctrine vs. protestant doctrine.

[edited] Sure, its nice if people dress better and there’s a good cantor/choir and more participation. But event the lack of those cannot take away what the Liturgy is. To say a Protestant worship service is better because of those elements misses the entire point of Liturgy.

Remember the spiritual reality of the Liturgy where heaven and earth intersects. No Protestant worship service can ever make that claim, no matter how good the singers are or even if the people dress as if they are at the Oscars.

Again, I’m not saying a protestant service is “better”. But it’s perfectly possible for Catholics to make their own services better still, even if only in externals, by looking at their separated brethren,

 

[Bob_Crowley]

If a Catholic parish could do things as well as this parish I think people WOULD return. All too often it seems we take God’s great gifts (the sacraments, etc.) and present them to the faithful in such a deficient manner. I really wonder why this church does such a better job at the man-given (as opposed to the God-given) externals?

People might say that the Mass is enough. That all the other stuff doesn’t matter. I submit that people often leave the Catholic Church because they see God’s gifts being presented in such lacking ways. Why do non-Catholics do such a superior job in the things we humans can control?

As a former Protestant, I have to agree. I have yet to hear a Catholic homily anywhere near as good as the sermons which I was accustomed to getting, particularly at my first Protestant church (admittedly the pastor was outstanding).

Even a priest I spoke to (and he was himself wasn’t too bad at homilies), admitted “The Catholic Church has struggled with that for a long time.” I’m not sure who it was - AW Tozer, or Karl Barth (both Protestant) who in one of their writings, while lauding the beauty of the traditional Catholic mass, mentioned, “How indifferent the homily…”. And they’ve both been dead for years. So the problem is not new.

Likewise they put a lot more effort into their music. And in most Protestant churches they don’t have to pay the music leaders either. In the big ones they probably do, but not in the great majority.

On the other hand, I do get sick of musical overkill sometimes when I have gone to protestant services. I don’t mind singing up to 3 songs at the beginning, but when they start going on with five or six, I get irritated.

I also notice that when Catholics do use a bit of modern upbeat music, it has nearly always been written by a Protestant.

We can do better in both the homilies and music. The other accessory services eg. sound systems with headphones, creches, kids club etc. depend to a large extent on resources, which in turn depends on attendance and consistent membership.

 

[benidict]

When I first started attending mass, it was in a more contemporary parish. Some how they manged to make the service more vibrant, but keep the solemnity that comes with Mass. It just was not my cup of tea. I personally had to find a more traditional Parish. fortunately I did have that option living in a larger city. But I still like to attend the Tuesday morning Mass at the more contemporary Parish, simply because I had developed some very strong ties to the people that prayed the Rosary there weekly without fail. I loved it. I also got alot out of the Priests Homilies, and no matter what, Traditional or Contemporary there is relevance in both. As a Guitarist though, I dont want to hear this instrument when I go to Church. Its a chance to get out of myself. To gather with the People of God, partake of the sacrements, and to be Still and know that He is God. I like that about the traditional mass. I think that some protestant congregations could learn from us, when it comes to this. Im sure there is a balance somewhere. Peace and prayers for all of us.

 

[ClamDigger]

“The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things,” as Musicam Sacram says.

Awesome? I still don’t really like it though. It’s just a personal preference.
It’s not like I said that if we had no instrumental music, it would somehow magically bring people back to the Catholic Church…

 

[Loboto-Me]

Clamdigger, I understand your love of the quiet Mass. A long time ago, I would attend the 8:00 Mass in another town I lived in and it was the quiet Mass. The peace it brought me was so nice. It would allow me to totally concentrate on where I was, in whose company I was… a very spiritual Mass.

Where I go now, it’s the 9:00 Mass with a wonderful cantor and the organ. Still a very reverent Mass that lasts at least one hour. I’m happy as long as I don’t have to attend the Saturday evening Mass with the drums and guitars ugh!

We do have an old lady that sits 2 pews in front of us who never stands up at the required times, except when it comes to the Our Father and later. She also drinks juice from a little juice cup whenever she wishes. It used to bother me alot, then I decided just to pray for her and tell myself that she is probably ignorant about what should be done and not done during Mass. In case you are wondering if she might be physically disabled or something, I thought maybe she was at first as well, but she walks quickly and normally. It’s just what she does

We also have a few people who talk and chat away loudly once in a while, but then again, I think it’s the situation mentioned earlier… uncatechised parishioners, and those who just go because of obligation… or as a social outing. I think that we need to make the choice as Catholics to re-convert ourselves throughout our lives in order to behave like we should during Mass.

I could almost guarantee that if all of us here at CAF went to Mass together, at the same time, in the same church, we’d probably have the exact reverence the OP yearns for.

 

[laszlo]

We must accept the fact that many, many will be lost and suffer in hell.

I would say it in that way:

We must accept the fact that many, many **of us **will be lost and suffer in hell.

This is the only view which may be makes us better. Taking ourselves out from the danger leads to nowhere.

 

[Heffner]

I haven’t read the entire thread, so please forgive if I repeat something that someone else already said.

I converted to Catholism in 2004 from evangelical Protestantism. I pretty much agree with the OP about “worship,” by which he/she obviously means “the externals.” I’ve only been in one Catholic Church that does these things as well or better than the evangelical churches where I spent most of my life.

I believe that we do the OP an injustice to question his/her loyalty and love of the Catholic Church. Throughout the centuries many saints have loved the Catholic Church, but have protested various practices that have crept into the Church. St. Teresa of Avila is a good example, as is St. Catherine.

Thanks for your comments.I don’t mind being attacked. What I find very sad though is people using God’s great gifts we Catholics receive as an excuse not to do better for the man-made things we control. If anything receiving those great gifts places an even greater responsibility on us to do our absolute best.

I believe that it is appropriate for Catholics to honestly access our parishes and consider whether improvements can be made that will attract people back to the Church, or that will make it easier for the parishioners to recognize that Jesus in Truly Present in the Mass. When week after week, parishioners hear bland music in the Mass, and pass cold-eyed parishioners who don’t even acknowledge the presence of other people, it is hard to see Jesus in this. Jesus is never bland, and He does not ignore His brothers and sisters. It is easier for many of us to see Jesus when the music is grand and magnificent (many styles can be this way), and when His people are warm and friendly (friendliness does not necessarily mean ebullient and noisy).

**The answer to the OP’s question is that the non-Catholics do a better job because they have the FREEDOM to do so. ** They are not bound by a liturgy. They can do what they please when it comes to music and other activities because there is no such thing as “liturgical abuse.” There are no liturgy police, and although the pastor or church executive board or worship leader has the authority to select the “style” of songs, readings, etc. to be included in the worship service each week, he/she is generally pretty open to almost any style of music or any style of readings, drama, order of service, activity, fellowship, etc.

Absolutely not. All the things I mentioned: bringing people to church, greeters, help for the hearing impaired, silence in church, modest garb, fellowship after Mass and other things people mentioned like getting to Mass on time, not leaving early are not for the most part controlled by the rubrics of the Mass. Before someone pipes up and says “they are not part of the Mass!” I’ll counter with “they are still vitally important to how people are spiritually nourished.”

However, I believe that Catholics have more freedom then we think we do, but in most parishes, no one is knowledgeable enough about the details of the liturgy to be able to clearly articulate the freedoms. The pastor is in charge, and the content of the liturgy will be determined by him one way or another.

If he is laid back, he will probably allow a free hand in the liturgy, and the musicians will use this opportunity to bring in different styles, many of which are offensive to more traditional Catholics. The liturgy may stray into abuse with this kind of leadership, or it may remain intact and correct, but it may become wild and hard-to-follow. But even in a parish where a laid-back pastor is comfortable allowing his musicians to try something new, the “new” songs themselves become monotonous year after year, and the musicians do not attempt to try anything “traditional,” which in this day and age, would be “new” to many people in the parish.

If the pastor is more conservative, he will keep a closer watch on the liturgy and make sure that the musicians do not attempt anything that is not acceptable to the majority of traditional Catholics. The liturgy may be very correct, but because the musicians know that the pastor will censor anything remotely questionable, they are hesitant to try anything “new.” The same hymns and songs will be used week after week, often in a rotation that continues for years and years.

OK…

Certain people in each parish become “experts” on the liturgy, and often, these people are fearsome and a force to be reckoned with. The problem is, they may or may not be correctly assessing the liturgical guidelines, but because so few others have the courage to tackle the liturgy, these “experts” continue to lead the way in parishes. Then there are people (like me) who don’t believe it is our place to interpet liturgical guidelines, but rather, believe that this is the responsibility of the pastor and of the hired staff, especially the Liturgical Director or Music Minister of our parish.

Such people are a horrible drain on my parish. Offer to get involved though and the resistance is remarkable. I wish my pastor had the resolve to deal with them.

I think that many Catholics have observed the “worship wars” or “music wars” in various Protestant denominations, and they are understandably hesitant to embroil their parishes and dioceses in these wars. So they sit back and content themselves with the way their parish has been for decades, and they don’t try to rock the boat and question things. I don’t blame them–the OP in this thread has been castigated for bringing up these issues–it’s bad enough when it happens in an online community, but it’s even harder to face in a real-life setting. No one wants to come to church and face the hostile stares of former friends.

LOL! Good point! Apathy is a killer.

 

[Heffner]

The conversation revealed that the OP has priases for Protestant worship services over true Liturgy. Sure, its nice if people dress better and there’s a good cantor/choir and more participation. But event the lack of those cannot take away what the Liturgy is. To say a Protestant worship service is better because of those elements misses the entire point of Liturgy.

Remember the spiritual reality of the Liturgy where heaven and earth intersects. No Protestant worship service can ever make that claim, no matter how good the singers are or even if the people dress as if they are at the Oscars.

Stop it.

Quit trying to pollute this thread with your anti-Protestant bigotry. Phemie is absolutely right. Please go and try to de-rail another thread. I am getting some good (name removed by moderator)ut here. Your ideal of “we have the Eucharist so we can act like apathetic slobs” is just wrong.

 

[Alan55]

I too have visited lots of protestant churches of various types, and I think that there’s a lot the Catholic Church could learn from them. It’s not all externals, either. Good worship music and preaching is truly important, not an mere external accessory to the sacrament. Evangelism, small study and sharing groups, adult education, social outreach – all tend to be done quite well and get lots of resources, support, and leadership. I’ve been in many, many services where people were profoundly worshipful. Even as a committed Roman Catholic, very active in the Church, some of my most profound worhip experiences have been in Protestant churches.

People who want to write off Protestant worship as merely emotional our focused on externals simply don’t know what they’re talking about. They’d rather attack the critic rather than take them seriously.

Many protestant churches compete for every person in the pew. In fast-growing evangelical churches, commonly 30-40 percent or more are former Catholics. Such churches commonly hire and fire pastors based on their performance: preaching, offering pastoral care, managing a budget. If the pastor can’t do his job well, they won’t last long. By contrast, priests are assigned to parishes by the bishop, and there seems to be little pressure on priests to do their job well. There are studies that show that it takes many years for a pastor to build a thriving, expanding church. The Catholic church chooses to move priests around after 6 years or so, which means that long-term efforts are very difficult to maintain and are subject to the preferences of the next appointee to the job. Catholic Church policies create a real obstacle to improving parish life.

I’m a devoted Catholic. However, I can understand why many Catholics decide to join Protestant Churches. I don’t condone it, I don’t recommend it, I fight hard to prevent it. But I understand it.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Catholics who tend to look down on Protestant worship should remember that the more traditional Protestants, e.g. Methodists, Presbyterians, some Baptists, etc have a worship service that is derived from the office of Lauds. The most clear example of this is Morning Prayer in the Anglican churches (and approved for use in Anglican Use Catholic churches). This non-eucharistic service has with modification and rearrangement been part of the Protestant tradition for centuries. I remember moving from the Methodist church to the Episcopal church and finding Morning Prayer to simply be a richer, fuller version of the service the Methodists have. Morning Prayer contains two readings, one from the old, the other from the new Testament, a Psalm either chanted or read by the congregation, and typically the Benedictus es, the Benedicite Omnia Opera Domini, the Jubilate Deo and the Te Deum (not all of them and usually not the Benedicite Omnia Opera Domini cuz its so long).

I read an interesting history of Anglican liturgy, which of necessity includes liturgy back to the earlies days of the Christian Church. Apparently these “choir offices” (non-eucharistic) have their origin in the synagogues all around Gallilee and Judea, where, in contrast to the Temple of Jerusalem, sacrifice was not done. In these synagogues our Lord taught from time to time. So Christians continued what they knew from the synagogues as choir offices and the sacrifice at the Temple in the form of the Eucharist. The difference being, of course, that the Eucharist is celebrated everywhere and not just in Jerusalem.

I too have visited lots of protestant churches of various types, and I think that there’s a lot the Catholic Church could learn from them. It’s not all externals, either. Good worship music and preaching is truly important, not an mere external accessory to the sacrament. Evangelism, small study and sharing groups, adult education, social outreach – all tend to be done quite well and get lots of resources, support, and leadership. I’ve been in many, many services where people were profoundly worshipful. Even as a committed Roman Catholic, very active in the Church, some of my most profound worhip experiences have been in Protestant churches.

People who want to write off Protestant worship as merely emotional our focused on externals simply don’t know what they’re talking about. They’d rather attack the critic rather than take them seriously.

Many protestant churches compete for every person in the pew. In fast-growing evangelical churches, commonly 30-40 percent or more are former Catholics. Such churches commonly hire and fire pastors based on their performance: preaching, offering pastoral care, managing a budget. If the pastor can’t do his job well, they won’t last long. By contrast, priests are assigned to parishes by the bishop, and there seems to be little pressure on priests to do their job well. There are studies that show that it takes many years for a pastor to build a thriving, expanding church. The Catholic church chooses to move priests around after 6 years or so, which means that long-term efforts are very difficult to maintain and are subject to the preferences of the next appointee to the job. Catholic Church policies create a real obstacle to improving parish life.

I’m a devoted Catholic. However, I can understand why many Catholics decide to join Protestant Churches. I don’t condone it, I don’t recommend it, I fight hard to prevent it. But I understand it.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

This is BY FAR the most hilarious thread I have ever read on CAF. I cannot remember how many times I have reads threads complaining about being forced to stare at someones butt cleavage or bra straps or jeans throughout mass or about how people walk in and out whenever they want or don’t participate at all or text or eat snacks the whole time. Too many to count. But mention that Protestants don’t do these things as much or have greater respect for the appropriate dress, behavior and attitude during a service and WOW. The claws come out and people start saying that the Protestants only care about appearances and clothes and it’s all some big show. You would think the OP said Satan could beat up God in a fist fight

 

[Heffner]

I too have visited lots of protestant churches of various types, and I think that there’s a lot the Catholic Church could learn from them. It’s not all externals, either. Good worship music and preaching is truly important, not an mere external accessory to the sacrament. Evangelism, small study and sharing groups, adult education, social outreach – all tend to be done quite well and get lots of resources, support, and leadership. I’ve been in many, many services where people were profoundly worshipful. Even as a committed Roman Catholic, very active in the Church, some of my most profound worhip experiences have been in Protestant churches.

People who want to write off Protestant worship as merely emotional our focused on externals simply don’t know what they’re talking about. They’d rather attack the critic rather than take them seriously.

Many protestant churches compete for every person in the pew. In fast-growing evangelical churches, commonly 30-40 percent or more are former Catholics. Such churches commonly hire and fire pastors based on their performance: preaching, offering pastoral care, managing a budget. If the pastor can’t do his job well, they won’t last long. By contrast, priests are assigned to parishes by the bishop, and there seems to be little pressure on priests to do their job well. There are studies that show that it takes many years for a pastor to build a thriving, expanding church. The Catholic church chooses to move priests around after 6 years or so, which means that long-term efforts are very difficult to maintain and are subject to the preferences of the next appointee to the job. Catholic Church policies create a real obstacle to improving parish life.

I’m a devoted Catholic. However, I can understand why many Catholics decide to join Protestant Churches. I don’t condone it, I don’t recommend it, I fight hard to prevent it. But I understand it.

A M E N !

I think some people are in denial. For some reason they believe that acceptance of God’s great gifts of the Eucharist and all the rest somehow make it OK for us to slack-off when it comes to how the liturgy is presented to the faithful. I maintain the exact opposite is true – that with great gifts from God come great responsibilities.

A handful have even tried to sell the view that because some here notice how well non-Catholic churches do certain things (buses, greetings, dressing, silence in church, etc.) that they prefer non-Catholic services over valid Catholic sacrificial liturgies. That is an out-and-out lie.

The fact of the matter is that people leave the Church because liturgy is treated as something every less sacred and every more ordinary. That’s horribly tragic and it’s something that going to have to change if the Church is ever to thrive again in the USA.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

As I sat in the large, rather formal church today, waiting for ashes after the Mass had concluded, thinking about the lovely 4 part Gregorian chant from the choir that I had just heard, I remembered this thread. And I thought of a sort of rough comparison. Maybe you will get a smile from it.

Imagine that I am a married man, but I am at a party without my wife. Maybe it’s a work function, or a client gathering when I am out of town. Look, there is a beautiful girl just over there, to my right. She has lovely long blonde hair, long legs, and a very flattering, lovely dress. She smiles, and her teeth are white and straight. Her laugh! How musical it is! Her eyes are twinkling. Her jewelry is sparkling. Everything she does is perfect, she’s the whole package that any man would want. I am tempted to go over and start talking to her, to join in the laughter of the people around her. Everyone is attracted to her, she is holding court with most of the people at the party.

I think of my wife, at home with the children. She has not kept herself as thin as she used to be, and her clothing is not so current, not so flattering. In fact she usually has spit-up on her shirt, from the baby - he’s got a sort of sensitive stomach. When she laughs it’s more of a guffaw, but the kids love to tell her jokes to hear the laugh. And she laughs a lot. Our home is a little less clean than it was before the baby came, but with 5 kids who can ever catch up? We love our children so much. I wonder if that beautiful girl would even want to have kids, in case she lost her figure or had to stay up all night with a sick child? I think of my wife and how giving she is, how she sacrifices herself for me and the kids. And I feel the shine rub off the perfect girl, and the glow I am thinking of is the one in my wife’s eyes as I come home from work each day and she shares the little details of our kids’ lives.

I think the OP has been to the party and has fallen in love with the perfect “girl,” leaving his wife looking like a frumpy, boring and tired old lump that he can’t imagine having married. That’s if he’s even Catholic, I don’t think he has that up on his information, does he?

The grass is always greener on the other side of the paddock…I’ll take our church no matter how bright the smiles might seem from the perfect church…

 

[PJM]

=Heffner;7627155]Your comments go directly to my OP. Sadly you might be attacked with dress code comments, a “at least they were at Mass” comments or promotion of the EF Mass but please let’s keep the productive dialog going.

Why do you think you think the faithful in Baptist parishes act so different than the faithful in Catholic parishes based on your personal experiences?

IMO…

The Pastor and priest who tolerate cronic lateness are every bit as cupable as those always arivng late.

The same goes for the way people dress for church.

To continually tolerate a wrong; is to give tasid aproval of it. NO! The prest can’t harp EVERY WEEK, but a few well placed signs and posters and an ocasional verbal from the pulpit; would accomplism a GREAT deal.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

A M E N !

I think some people are in denial. For some reason they believe that acceptance of God’s great gifts of the Eucharist and all the rest somehow make it OK for us to slack-off when it comes to how the liturgy is presented to the faithful. I maintain the exact opposite is true – that with great gifts from God come great responsibilities.

A handful have even tried to sell the view that because some here notice how well non-Catholic churches do certain things (buses, greetings, dressing, silence in church, etc.) that they prefer non-Catholic services over valid Catholic sacrificial liturgies. That is an out-and-out lie.

The fact of the matter is that people leave the Church because liturgy is treated as something every less sacred and every more ordinary. That’s horribly tragic and it’s something that going to have to change if the Church is ever to thrive again in the USA.

If the Church is not “thriving,” it is because of liberal progressive weak-as-water Catholics not following the true tenets of the faith, not because we don’t have musical talent or powerpoint presentations. I think your bias is showing.

And I invite any Catholic here at CAF to post a description of their church, with all the programs and ministries listed out, maybe a floor plan of the church, an mpg file of the choir, all the great things that you love about your church, so that Heffner can still maintain that “you’re doin’ it wrong!”

Heffner, you are hereby invited to attend any Mass you wish at any church in my city. Just PM me when you are in the area and I will select the best, fanciest, most outgoing church and we will sit right up front so all you have to look at is the choir and the altar. then afterward we can go to the poor area and hit the Pentecostal services so you can be slain in the spirit…

I just have this feeling that you have a chip on your shoulder and it’s not going to be knocked off no matter what anyone says.

 

[Heffner]

As I sat in the large, rather formal church today, waiting for ashes after the Mass had concluded, thinking about the lovely 4 part Gregorian chant from the choir that I had just heard, I remembered this thread. And I thought of a sort of rough comparison. Maybe you will get a smile from it.

Imagine that I am a married man, but I am at a party without my wife. Maybe it’s a work function, or a client gathering when I am out of town. Look, there is a beautiful girl just over there, to my right. She has lovely long blonde hair, long legs, and a very flattering, lovely dress. She smiles, and her teeth are white and straight. Her laugh! How musical it is! Her eyes are twinkling. Her jewelry is sparkling. Everything she does is perfect, she’s the whole package that any man would want. I am tempted to go over and start talking to her, to join in the laughter of the people around her. Everyone is attracted to her, she is holding court with most of the people at the party.

I think of my wife, at home with the children. She has not kept herself as thin as she used to be, and her clothing is not so current, not so flattering. In fact she usually has spit-up on her shirt, from the baby - he’s got a sort of sensitive stomach. When she laughs it’s more of a guffaw, but the kids love to tell her jokes to hear the laugh. And she laughs a lot. Our home is a little less clean than it was before the baby came, but with 5 kids who can ever catch up? We love our children so much. I wonder if that beautiful girl would even want to have kids, in case she lost her figure or had to stay up all night with a sick child? I think of my wife and how giving she is, how she sacrifices herself for me and the kids. And I feel the shine rub off the perfect girl, and the glow I am thinking of is the one in my wife’s eyes as I come home from work each day and she shares the little details of our kids’ lives.

I think the OP has been to the party and has fallen in love with the perfect “girl,” leaving his wife looking like a frumpy, boring and tired old lump that he can’t imagine having married. That’s if he’s even Catholic, I don’t think he has that up on his information, does he?

The grass is always greener on the other side of the paddock…I’ll take our church no matter how bright the smiles might seem from the perfect church…

Sadly you’re trying to sell the idea that Catholics can’t have the best of everything. That somehow the great God-given gifts like the Eucharist somehow preclude us from organizing van pools, greeting people at the door, dressing modestly for church, arriving on time, being silent in church, singing, not leaving early, taking part in after-liturgy fellowship and all the rest. His great gifts do not preclude us from doing that. In fact, I feel they demand that we do.