Why Do Non-Catholics Do Such A Better Job with Worship?

[Heffner]

We Catholics enjoy and benefit from far more of God’s gifts than non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians. I am not questioning that in the least and I hope no one will suggest I am.

What I am wondering about is why do so many non-Catholic Christians groups do such a superior job to Catholic parishes when it comes to the things we humans control and bring to worship? (Yes, the sacrificial Catholic liturgies are infinitely superior to any man-made worship service but that is due to God, not humans.)

After attending Mass early on Sunday morning and the Divine Liturgy during mid-morning I went to a large, local Protestant church Sunday night. All the things that we humans bring to the worship (and not what God gifts to us as Catholics) were executed in a manner that was superior to anything I have ever experienced at a Catholic Mass.

We were nicely greeted as we entered the church. The church was silent inside with people in prayer before the service. People were dressed much nicer then I have seen at Catholic parishes. I noticed some older folks were wearing portable radios with headsets. They weren’t listening to music. They were getting ready to listen to the service over their radios which are broadcast in real time inside the church. I saw a half dozen vans bringing those that didn’t have another ride to the service. The entire congregation sounded like a choir. They used a piano and a harp to accompany. Simply gorgeous.

The preaching was awesome. The message was not different then what I have heard at my parish but it was delivered in a way that really made me sit up and notice. I had to use the restroom during, and walking through the lobby I could see parents with noisy kids and just passer-byers watching the service on big screens in the lobby. Afterward the church had a nice little fellowship gathering with watch seemed like the entire parish in attendance. The pastor and associate pastor made their rounds and they spoke to my friend and I. They were delighted to hear we were visiting and they mentioned my pastor as being a personal acquittance.

If a Catholic parish could do things as well as this parish I think people WOULD return. All too often it seems we take God’s great gifts (the sacraments, etc.) and present them to the faithful in such a deficient manner. I really wonder why this church does such a better job at the man-given (as opposed to the God-given) externals?

People might say that the Mass is enough. That all the other stuff doesn’t matter. I submit that people often leave the Catholic Church because they see God’s gifts being presented in such lacking ways. Why do non-Catholics do such a superior job in the things we humans can control?

 

[Labarum]

There are always room for improvement with welcoming people into the church. However, this is not part of the worship service.

I think you mean “why do non-Catholics do such a better job at entertaining people at their worship service?” because that is the real point. The issue is that the Protestant service has the pumping up sermons, the hip rock bands and the cool youth groups but it’s all there for entertainment, there is nothing deeper than “what I get out of it”. If a parishioner does not like whats going on or doesn’t get that “high” then they go to the next worship service that is more exciting. Bottom line, it focuses on what the individual gets out of it rather than what you can give to God. It’s lacking substance so it makes up for it with flash (like movies with poor plots but to make up for it they add all these cool special effects to get people to watch it since the story is bad).

I would also argue that some Catholic masses are not that good due to liturgical abuses. Where you find a traditional parish, I find it is more active and produces more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

 

[Heffner]

There are always room for improvement with welcoming people into the church. However, this is not part of the worship service.

I think you mean “why do non-Catholics do such a better job at entertaining people at their worship service?” because that is the real point. The issue is that the Protestant service has the pumping up sermons, the hip rock bands and the cool youth groups but it’s all there for entertainment, there is nothing deeper than “what I get out of it”. If a parishioner does not like whats going on or doesn’t get that “high” then they go to the next worship service that is more exciting. Bottom line, it focuses on what the individual gets out of it rather than what you can give to God. It’s lacking substance so it makes up for it with flash (like movies with poor plots but to make up for it they add all these cool special effects to get people to watch it since the story is bad).

I would also argue that some Catholic masses are not that good due to liturgical abuses. Where you find a traditional parish, I find it is more active and produces more vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

No, not at all. It was not about being “entertained” or “pumped-up.” There were no rock bands, cool youth groups or anything else you mention in view. I wish you would have read my comments instead of commenting on your own. I fear the other comments will be like yours.

I suppose the best analogy I can make (and it’s still very poor) is that of a restaurant. My parish has the best food in town but it’s presented in a fast food manner. While the quality of the food (which is prepared by God not us) does not rely on the actions of the restaurant personnel, the slipshod fast food environment MOST CERTAINLY DOES drive people away. Even though the food is as high quality as Godly possibly, it is often viewed differently because of the manner in which it is served.

This church I went to obviously had inferior food (because they do not have God as their Chef) yet everything HUMANS control in the operation of a restaurant, they did far better than another Catholic restaurant I have ever eaten at. It was fine dining with inferior food.

I want God’s cooking (Catholic sacrificial liturgy) in a fine dining environment. I wonder if it exists anywhere?

 

[Spirithound]

What I am wondering about is why do so many non-Catholic Christians groups do such a superior job to Catholic parishes when it comes to the things we humans control and bring to worship? (Yes, the sacrificial Catholic liturgies are infinitely superior to any man-made worship service but that is due to God, not humans.)

Why not talk to your pastor about forming a welcoming committee?

 

[Heffner]

Why not talk to your pastor about forming a welcoming committee?

Good suggestion.

For a couple of reasons. First, such group have been started and then prematurely die. I think these sorts of improvements need to be done in a fairly integrated and systematic way for them to make a difference and I cannot imagine my pastor supporting anything to that extent.

Second, even with the pastor’s approval and support there would be strong resistance. There’s strong resistance to anything new at my parish. My pastor won’t help to overcome that resistance either.

 

[Spirithound]

I can understand that. Sometimes it really seems like the “Catholic culture” is one of profound individuality, doesn’t it? I’ve seen both sides in my life. The several parishes that I spent my youth in were almost…I don’t want to say “devoid”, but basically…of communal activity outside of Mass. I had no clue that lay apostolates and ministries even existed! Then I went away to university, and I have been blessed twice with great, vibrant parishes. And frankly, I don’t know how they did it.

On reflection, the welcoming committee is probably not the best thing to institute first. Perhaps a prayer line? If you put into the bulletin, and solicit both prayer requests, and volunteers, this could be a first step towards knowing that your fellow parishioners love you, and then perhaps other ministries will follow.

 

[georgewithfaith]

I see and understand much of your angst regarding Catholic worship but I disagree with your choice of words in your post title. I don’t know what type of non-catholic service you attended but is this the norm for non-catholics to be quiet and well dressed in church?

 

[dmorgan]

I am southern by birth, Have two Baptist Preachers (deceased) on my Mothers side of the family, and have attended most, if not all mainstream Protestant services at one time or another.
As a general rule, the majority of protestants do dress up more than we do for Sunday worship. We did too before many of the changes associated with Vatican II. Most if not all Catholics who attend the EF still dress much more conservatively than your regular NO Parish.
Most Mainstream Protestants do have larger and well trained choirs, that sing time honored sacred music. We did also before the new hymnals which came along with the NO. Think Gregorian Chant and Plainchant at a Missa Cantata.And many Parishes still have large choirs that do a respectable job even with the music selections we now have.
Back when our Priests were giving Homilies on the Sacraments, Catholic principles, Catechesis and even the Four Last Things, we had powerful sermons that kept most if not all of the Parishioners squirming in the pews. Not nearly so often now.
You will find however that the focus at many Protestant Churches does border on entertainment to a point. The Preachers and Ministers of music at many (not all) of these Churches are HIRED by the Church. If the members are not happy, out they go and a new Preacher is hired to try his luck. Keeping the people happy is a point of concern.
I will not argue that more teaching goes on from a Scriptural standpoint on any given Sunday at most Protestant Churches, but the Sola Scriptura aspect permeates. Of course that is what you would expect since they are after all Protestants. And they lack the most important part of what we are to honor, The Sacrifice Of our Lord.
The Catholic Church had many of these aspects that you found enjoyable before we allowed our Mass to be watered down and the Sacredness made secondary to whatever it is that we have today. Pope Benedict XVI is addressing this now. The new translation will help. But WE also need to address this as loyal Parishioners and do everything that we can to encourage our Priests to bring back the Sacredness and joy that only the Mass can give. Quite Sanctuaries, appropriate music, rich homilies, and a greater sense of respect on the part of the Faithful.

Someone once said that “A people get the Government that they deserve”. I believe the same can be said about the Mass. IF we desire Sacredness and beauty, we will receive it.

Pax Christi

 

[Heffner]

I really appreciate the comments. In trying to answer my own question I think it begins with “effort.” All those nice things I experienced put an even greater load on pastors. In many cases pastors are already stretched thin and in other cases they simply don’t want to make the effort. That’s the case in many parishes. I also don’t think that many Catholic pastors are aware at just how good their competition is when it comes to the human-controlled stuff. They hear the entertainment/rock band/cool youth group excuses and they give up before they really even investigate.

I think those that are open to making the effort are often surrounded by staffs (both paid and volunteer) who simply lack the various skills necessary to devise, plan and execute what I witnessed. Quite the contrary. In many cases their focus is to apply pressure to keep things the way they are, within the realm of their personal capabilities.

The ambitious pastor is then faced with having to replace much of his staff (many with DEEP roots in the parish and the community) before he even really begins to improve the quality of worship. Around here pastors are rotated ever 6 years. They don’t have the 17 years (and counting) that the pastor of the church I visited enjoyed.

 

[Heffner]

I can understand that. Sometimes it really seems like the “Catholic culture” is one of profound individuality, doesn’t it? I’ve seen both sides in my life. The several parishes that I spent my youth in were almost…I don’t want to say “devoid”, but basically…of communal activity outside of Mass. I had no clue that lay apostolates and ministries even existed! Then I went away to university, and I have been blessed twice with great, vibrant parishes. And frankly, I don’t know how they did it.

On reflection, the welcoming committee is probably not the best thing to institute first. Perhaps a prayer line? If you put into the bulletin, and solicit both prayer requests, and volunteers, this could be a first step towards knowing that your fellow parishioners love you, and then perhaps other ministries will follow.

Around here it often feels like worship is little more than satisfying one’s Sunday obligation in the absolute fastest and easiest manner possible. Like it or not, that sort of environment makes the Catholic sacrificial liturgies ever less sacred and ever more ordinary in the eyes of many faithful. That in my opinion has caused many to leave.

 

[pismopal]

We have somethings that are impossible to duplicate. We have an authentic Church. with a genuine leader who loves us and the Church…all of the Sacraments…including the best of all…The Body…Blood…Soul and Divinity of Christ in Holy Communion. I have been to hundreds of songfests and heard many preachers trying to remain charismatic so they would not be canned…nothing can beat what I have now and I would never…ever go back. Just a thought for you to consider.

 

[po18guy]

Let none of the following personal opinion and observations be construed so as to intend offense or insult to any individual or group.

There is a fundamental and profound difference between the Catholic/Orthodox mass and “worship services”. Such services do not render the sacrifice of Christ present. Such services have no sacrificial element at all. They do not re-present, but rather involve themselves with, or focus on a historical event. They are geared almost entirely toward the result of that event. As such, they have almost unlimited freedom to tailor the setting, the content, the context and the fervency of the service. In that regard, I see them, to some extent, as theological pep rallies. But, rallies with motivational speakers would not be employed if they had no effect.

The protestant revolt brought about substantial changes in the methodology of worship. One being that the sacrificial nature of the gathering on the Lord’s day was abandoned. Another was the necessity of the ministerial priesthood being discarded. A third was the rejection of central authority over worship. A result of this decentralization and rejection of authority was that congregations began to split with increasing frequency. This introduced the factor of competition for membership between the individual communities. Such tribal identification and the sense of competition remain at least a part of the non-Catholic mindset these days, IME.

Some “Bible Christians” here drop the phrase “your church” as though we are marketing a brand to the public - as though truth is a matter of personal preference. We are not in a competition, but a life-long search for the truth. Anything less serves only the evil one.

 

[Georgia]

Please pardon what seems like a real screed, but I wanted to make some potentially uncomfortable points here on this topic. I’m really not as strident as I sound!

I was raised a Baptist and was until I was in my mid-thirties. One thing really comes to mind on this topic and that is the general lack of respect I see for Mass, especially compared to what I saw at the time I crossed the Tiber.

When the Baptist service begins, everyone is well dressed, coats, ties, and dresses, and is seated. There is meeting and greeting on the way in, but virtually every person coming is there for the start. It would be considered quite rude to arrive late, so there are never more than one or two people coming in after the service begins.

At our parish, there are several families that I suspect have never seen the procession, in or out. Their standard time of arrival is about 10 minutes after Mass starts. One family always makes it in very late and strolls to the front one or two pews to look for seats every Sunday. They do, however, make up for it by blowing out on receiving or at least by the time the words “The Mass has ended” have stopped echoing. I understand that all of us are late sometimes, but when it is an every week thing, that is a choice.

Last Sunday, I looked around as Mass began and wondered where everyone was. It was sparse. By the Gospel reading, the place was packed. People were coming in at their leisure and were wandering around looking for seats. A good fifth of the people arrived during the Psalms. There was no way to concentrate on the readings while people were moving in front of us and quite a few people were walking around the church. I tried to read from the missal, but there were simply too many distractions. It was like trying to have Mass in a shopping mall.

I often wonder at that. It would have been considered the height of ill manners in my former practice, but here in the more formal setting, people do as they please. Why?

The manner of dress is an issue too. I hear the old saying that God does not care what you wear, but I should not know what color your underwear is during Mass. I should not see bare mid sections, low cut blouses, or short shorts. Some things just don’t belong. Maybe I am wrong, but common decency would dictate some taste. I cannot understand why you see no such dress at a Baptist church while some Catholics appear headed for the beach.

We are required to assist at the Mass. That would seem to require some participation other than just showing up. Few pick up a hymnal and at least try to fake singing. None of us have the voices we want, but we could try to praise God with what we have. Singing wasn’t optional at the Baptist church, so I wonder why so many of us stand around looking uncomfortable. Don’t we have something to sing about in receiving Our Lord?

OK, some people won’t sing, but they can respond at the appropriate times. More times than a few, I have had a momentary panic in hearing my solo voice at those around me just stand there. This ain’t a stage play; we have to participate.

 

[Heffner]

We have somethings that are impossible to duplicate. We have an authentic Church. with a genuine leader who loves us and the Church…all of the Sacraments…including the best of all…The Body…Blood…Soul and Divinity of Christ in Holy Communion. I have been to hundreds of songfests and heard many preachers trying to remain charismatic so they would not be canned…nothing can beat what I have now and I would never…ever go back. Just a thought for you to consider.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked.

Sadly it seems like our acceptance of God’s sublime gifts are often offered as an excuse for just how poorly most Catholic parishes execute the various things I mentioned in my OP. Things that are not unimportant.

I want the best of both worlds. I want a valid sacrificial liturgy that is offered with the superior care and polish of some non-Catholic worship services.

 

[moxie7]

Funny- all the things (except for one) are the reason I never liked my Protestant Church growing up and have been an atheist for 23 years until this December.
I love the low key, more spiritual feel of a Catholic Church. I feel God more at a Catholic Church. But you are right in that those Churches pull people in with more of a feeling of community. It is sad I have not found many resources where I am for Catholics- for instance singles groups, women’s groups etc. These would help me grow in my Catholic faith since it is so new to me and I have not started RCIA yet. There seems to be mass and that is it. I do like that I don’t have to dress up, for me that is because I go at noon during lunch to a Cathedral near my work. I did feel at the Protestant was much about show, and who gave more money, and who sang the best. This stuff was so much about people and so little about God.

 

[Heffner]

Please pardon what seems like a real screed, but I wanted to make some potentially uncomfortable points here on this topic. I’m really not as strident as I sound!

I was raised a Baptist and was until I was in my mid-thirties. One thing really comes to mind on this topic and that is the general lack of respect I see for Mass, especially compared to what I saw at the time I crossed the Tiber.

When the Baptist service begins, everyone is well dressed, coats, ties, and dresses, and is seated. There is meeting and greeting on the way in, but virtually every person coming is there for the start. It would be considered quite rude to arrive late, so there are never more than one or two people coming in after the service begins.

At our parish, there are several families that I suspect have never seen the procession, in or out. Their standard time of arrival is about 10 minutes after Mass starts. One family always makes it in very late and strolls to the front one or two pews to look for seats every Sunday. They do, however, make up for it by blowing out on receiving or at least by the time the words “The Mass has ended” have stopped echoing. I understand that all of us are late sometimes, but when it is an every week thing, that is a choice.

Last Sunday, I looked around as Mass began and wondered where everyone was. It was sparse. By the Gospel reading, the place was packed. People were coming in at their leisure and were wandering around looking for seats. A good fifth of the people arrived during the Psalms. There was no way to concentrate on the readings while people were moving in front of us and quite a few people were walking around the church. I tried to read from the missal, but there were simply too many distractions. It was like trying to have Mass in a shopping mall.

I often wonder at that. It would have been considered the height of ill manners in my former practice, but here in the more formal setting, people do as they please. Why?

The manner of dress is an issue too. I hear the old saying that God does not care what you wear, but I should not know what color your underwear is during Mass. I should not see bare mid sections, low cut blouses, or short shorts. Some things just don’t belong. Maybe I am wrong, but common decency would dictate some taste. I cannot understand why you see no such dress at a Baptist church while some Catholics appear headed for the beach.

We are required to assist at the Mass. That would seem to require some participation other than just showing up. Few pick up a hymnal and at least try to fake singing. None of us have the voices we want, but we could try to praise God with what we have. Singing wasn’t optional at the Baptist church, so I wonder why so many of us stand around looking uncomfortable. Don’t we have something to sing about in receiving Our Lord?

OK, some people won’t sing, but they can respond at the appropriate times. More times than a few, I have had a momentary panic in hearing my solo voice at those around me just stand there. This ain’t a stage play; we have to participate.

Your comments go directly to my OP. Sadly you might be attacked with dress code comments, a “at least they were at Mass” comments or promotion of the EF Mass but please let’s keep the productive dialog going.

Why do you think you think the faithful in Baptist parishes act so different than the faithful in Catholic parishes based on your personal experiences?

 

[Luke65]

“I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.” (Deuteronomy 32:21)

Understand the ways of God, and let the Holy Spirit light a fire under you to do something about it. And pray and do penance, and bless the New Israel - the Catholic Church. God bless.

 

[Heffner]

Let none of the following personal opinion and observations be construed so as to intend offense or insult to any individual or group.

There is a fundamental and profound difference between the Catholic/Orthodox mass and “worship services”. Such services do not render the sacrifice of Christ present. Such services have no sacrificial element at all. They do not re-present, but rather involve themselves with, or focus on a historical event. They are geared almost entirely toward the result of that event. As such, they have almost unlimited freedom to tailor the setting, the content, the context and the fervency of the service. In that regard, I see them, to some extent, as theological pep rallies. But, rallies with motivational speakers would not be employed if they had no effect.

No. I covered that at length in my OP. Non-Christians/Orthodox do not enjoy the gifts we do. That’s not under discussion My question asks why they often do such a batter job at everything that humans DO control (verses gifted from God.) The Mass in no way mandates poor music, poor singing, late arrivals, early exists, lax preaching and a zillion other things including those I mentioned in my original post.

The protestant revolt brought about substantial changes in the methodology of worship. One being that the sacrificial nature of the gathering on the Lord’s day was abandoned. Another was the necessity of the ministerial priesthood being discarded. A third was the rejection of central authority over worship. A result of this decentralization and rejection of authority was that congregations began to split with increasing frequency. This introduced the factor of competition for membership between the individual communities. Such tribal identification and the sense of competition remain at least a part of the non-Catholic mindset these days, IME.

Some “Bible Christians” here drop the phrase “your church” as though we are marketing a brand to the public - as though truth is a matter of personal preference. We are not in a competition, but a life-long search for the truth. Anything less serves only the evil one.

No. See above.

 

[Heffner]

Funny- all the things (except for one) are the reason I never liked my Protestant Church growing up and have been an atheist for 23 years until this December.
I love the low key, more spiritual feel of a Catholic Church. I feel God more at a Catholic Church. But you are right in that those Churches pull people in with more of a feeling of community. It is sad I have not found many resources where I am for Catholics- for instance singles groups, women’s groups etc. These would help me grow in my Catholic faith since it is so new to me and I have not started RCIA yet. There seems to be mass and that is it. I do like that I don’t have to dress up, for me that is because I go at noon during lunch to a Cathedral near my work. I did feel at the Protestant was much about show, and who gave more money, and who sang the best. This stuff was so much about people and so little about God.

Walk into most Catholic parishes just before Mass and there is a great deal of talking and back-slapping going on. That’s hardly low key or spiritual. The silence I felt in that other church was, however.

 

[pismopal]

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked.

Sadly it seems like our acceptance of God’s sublime gifts are often offered as an excuse for just how poorly most Catholic parishes execute the various things I mentioned in my OP. Things that are not unimportant.

I want the best of both worlds. I want a valid sacrificial liturgy that is offered with the superior care and polish of some non-Catholic worship services.

Sir…either you did not compose your question to correspond with your thoughts or you need to brush up on critical thinking. Secondly…you could not possibly…not even close… have any idea about how “most Catholic parishes” execute the mass.
Third…the Catholic mass is a worship service and some of us think it is far superior to what many consider to be nothing more than a meeting of non Catholic believers,some of whom have excellent vocal skills…but do a better job with worship?..absolutely no way!
I am still scratching my head over your response…sheesh