Why Do Non-Catholics Do Such A Better Job with Worship?

[Heffner]

If the Church is not “thriving,” it is because of liberal progressive weak-as-water Catholics not following the true tenets of the faith, not because we don’t have musical talent or powerpoint presentations. I think your bias is showing.

Good grief.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Sadly you’re trying to sell the idea that Catholics can’t have the best of everything. That somehow the great God-given gifts like the Eucharist somehow preclude us from organizing van pools, greeting people at the door, dressing modestly for church, arriving on time, being silent in church, singing, not leaving early, taking part in after-liturgy fellowship and all the rest. His great gifts do not preclude us from doing that. In fact, I feel they demand that we do.

You totally and completely missed my point.

And so many people have already chimed in, telling you that their church DOES THESE THINGS already and more, and you ignore it. You have a bias, you already said your church annoys you for other reasons.

GO TO THE PERFECT CHURCH HEFFNER! ENJOY IT!

By the way, “the best of everything” happens to be Jesus Christ in the Real Presence. I don’t care if someone shows up in rags, the music is terrible, there are no greeters, people talk, chew gum and throw their wrappers on the floor, I am there to receive Christ’s Body and Blood. And I will love my church no matter what.

 

[Heffner]

IMO…

The Pastor and priest who tolerate cronic lateness are every bit as cupable as those always arivng late.

The same goes for the way people dress for church.

To continually tolerate a wrong; is to give tasid aproval of it. NO! The prest can’t harp EVERY WEEK, but a few well placed signs and posters and an ocasional verbal from the pulpit; would accomplism a GREAT deal.

1000% agree.

I took part in two Masses today. As always it was standing room only on Ash Wednesday. Our long retired pastor preached strongly at the need to take all of our holy days of obligation seriously and that today wasn’t one.

At a later Mass our current pastor made no such comment. I think he’s terrified of alienating anyone…

 

[Heffner]

You totally and completely missed my point.

And so many people have already chimed in, telling you that their church DOES THESE THINGS already and more, and you ignore it. You have a bias, you already said your church annoys you for other reasons.

GO TO THE PERFECT CHURCH HEFFNER! ENJOY IT!

Well thanks be to God! I suspect I have attended Mass at more than 100 parishes in the past 5 years but I have NEVER seen that level of planning and execution at any Mass but I am happy to hear it exists.

 

[Heffner]

This is BY FAR the most hilarious thread I have ever read on CAF. I cannot remember how many times I have reads threads complaining about being forced to stare at someones butt cleavage or bra straps or jeans throughout mass or about how people walk in and out whenever they want or don’t participate at all or text or eat snacks the whole time. Too many to count. But mention that Protestants don’t do these things as much or have greater respect for the appropriate dress, behavior and attitude during a service and WOW. The claws come out and people start saying that the Protestants only care about appearances and clothes and it’s all some big show. You would think the OP said Satan could beat up God in a fist fight

Some here have clearly been programmed to react and react harshly rather than to think… It’s so very transparent. I think that’s yet another reason that keeps Catholic parishes from realizing excellence in liturgy.

All of us have been subject at one time or another to absurd misunderstandings of the Mass. We are just being treated to the Catholic version where some simply cannot recognize that some groups do a better job on average on some things then we Catholics – and no, having the Blessed Sacrament does not excuse that.

 

[Heffner]

You totally and completely missed my point.

And so many people have already chimed in, telling you that their church DOES THESE THINGS already and more, and you ignore it. You have a bias, you already said your church annoys you for other reasons.

GO TO THE PERFECT CHURCH HEFFNER! ENJOY IT!

By the way, “the best of everything” happens to be Jesus Christ in the Real Presence. I don’t care if someone shows up in rags, the music is terrible, there are no greeters, people talk, chew gum and throw their wrappers on the floor, I am there to receive Christ’s Body and Blood. And I will love my church no matter what.

I do.

I have too much respect to act that way in His House, in His Presence. I think MANY Catholics feel that way – to the point of leaving the Church in far too many instances.

 

[Heffner]

As I sat in the large, rather formal church today, waiting for ashes after the Mass had concluded, thinking about the lovely 4 part Gregorian chant from the choir that I had just heard, I remembered this thread. And I thought of a sort of rough comparison. Maybe you will get a smile from it.

Imagine that I am a married man, but I am at a party without my wife. Maybe it’s a work function, or a client gathering when I am out of town. Look, there is a beautiful girl just over there, to my right. She has lovely long blonde hair, long legs, and a very flattering, lovely dress. She smiles, and her teeth are white and straight. Her laugh! How musical it is! Her eyes are twinkling. Her jewelry is sparkling. Everything she does is perfect, she’s the whole package that any man would want. I am tempted to go over and start talking to her, to join in the laughter of the people around her. Everyone is attracted to her, she is holding court with most of the people at the party.

I think of my wife, at home with the children. She has not kept herself as thin as she used to be, and her clothing is not so current, not so flattering. In fact she usually has spit-up on her shirt, from the baby - he’s got a sort of sensitive stomach. When she laughs it’s more of a guffaw, but the kids love to tell her jokes to hear the laugh. And she laughs a lot. Our home is a little less clean than it was before the baby came, but with 5 kids who can ever catch up? We love our children so much. I wonder if that beautiful girl would even want to have kids, in case she lost her figure or had to stay up all night with a sick child? I think of my wife and how giving she is, how she sacrifices herself for me and the kids. And I feel the shine rub off the perfect girl, and the glow I am thinking of is the one in my wife’s eyes as I come home from work each day and she shares the little details of our kids’ lives.

I think the OP has been to the party and has fallen in love with the perfect “girl,” leaving his wife looking like a frumpy, boring and tired old lump that he can’t imagine having married. That’s if he’s even Catholic, I don’t think he has that up on his information, does he?

The grass is always greener on the other side of the paddock…I’ll take our church no matter how bright the smiles might seem from the perfect church…

FWIW the rubrics call for the ashes to be blessed and distributed directly following the homily.

 

[ConstantineTG]

A M E N !

I think some people are in denial. For some reason they believe that acceptance of God’s great gifts of the Eucharist and all the rest somehow make it OK for us to slack-off when it comes to how the liturgy is presented to the faithful. I maintain the exact opposite is true – that with great gifts from God come great responsibilities.

A handful have even tried to sell the view that because some here notice how well non-Catholic churches do certain things (buses, greetings, dressing, silence in church, etc.) that they prefer non-Catholic services over valid Catholic sacrificial liturgies. That is an out-and-out lie.

The fact of the matter is that people leave the Church because liturgy is treated as something every less sacred and every more ordinary. That’s horribly tragic and it’s something that going to have to change if the Church is ever to thrive again in the USA.

And somehow you deny God’s gifts and the way of worship established by the Apostles and enriched by 2000 years of tradition and organic development in favor of feel good music and people who dress up. That is missing the entire point of Liturgy. If you actually listen to their music, you will see the hollow and faulty theology in many of them. How can you be spiritually enriched by that?

The fact that people leave the Church is because they are poorly catechized. Also, Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Pentecostals, specifically target Catholics. I’ve been to a Pentecostal dinner-turned-sermon where they were all “Praise the Lord, Alleluia!” on stories of converting Catholics.

 

[TrueLight]

As a former Protestant, I have to agree. I have yet to hear a Catholic homily anywhere near as good as the sermons which I was accustomed to getting, particularly at my first Protestant church (admittedly the pastor was outstanding)…

Speaking of good preaching, has anyone ever heard of
Alex Jones, who is an ex Pentecostal pastor who converted to Catholicism? If he ever is allowed to become a married priest, I think he’ll have a very interesting parish indeed.

 

[TrueLight]

First of all, welcome to the forums! We can always use a reasoned and balanced response from a fellow lover of Christ.

As to the mass in particular, once one realizes that we stand at the foot of the cross, it takes on a new dimension. Once we realize that we are at the last supper and that Judas has just left, it takes on a new dimension.

Again, a Church that covers the world will reveal the extremes of both pious and irreverent behaviors. Let us recall that the crowd was jeering at Christ as He hung, bleeding to death for us. If those around us do not behave well, then let us pray for them as they ask us to during the Penitential Rite. If the Priest does not conduct the mass as he should, let us pray for his strength, holiness and obedience.

This is one area in which the laity have a crucial task to perform. If we do not perform that task, we should also keep silent about the abuses and distractions.

Thanks for the welcome! I hope you all don’t get sick of my questions/debates.

 

[TrueLight]

. Also, Protestants, especially Evangelicals and Pentecostals, specifically target Catholics. I’ve been to a Pentecostal dinner-turned-sermon where they were all “Praise the Lord, Alleluia!” on stories of converting Catholics.

You are absolutely correct there. Mostly the “born agains”, of which I was a part.

 

[Heffner]

Speaking of good preaching, has anyone ever heard of
Alex Jones, who is an ex Pentecostal pastor who converted to Catholicism? If he ever is allowed to become a married priest, I think he’ll have a very interesting parish indeed.

Alex is a permanent deacon now. He can preach during Masses. I heard him speak before he was ordained. He’s quite gifted.

 

[Luke65]

This is BY FAR the most hilarious thread I have ever read on CAF. I cannot remember how many times I have reads threads complaining about being forced to stare at someones butt cleavage or bra straps or jeans throughout mass or about how people walk in and out whenever they want or don’t participate at all or text or eat snacks the whole time. Too many to count. But mention that Protestants don’t do these things as much or have greater respect for the appropriate dress, behavior and attitude during a service and WOW. The claws come out and people start saying that the Protestants only care about appearances and clothes and it’s all some big show. You would think the OP said Satan could beat up God in a fist fight

I have no idea what you’re talking about…

Vatican officials say bad Masses lead to weak faith

“A weakening of faith in God, a rise in selfishness and a drop in the number of people going to Mass in many parts of the world can be traced to Masses that are not reverent and don’t follow church rules, said two Vatican officials and a consultant.”

CAF thread - last week!

I see nothing!

P.S. I hope nobody tells Cardinal Burke to leave the Church.

 

[ClamDigger]

Clamdigger, I understand your love of the quiet Mass. A long time ago, I would attend the 8:00 Mass in another town I lived in and it was the quiet Mass. The peace it brought me was so nice. It would allow me to totally concentrate on where I was, in whose company I was… a very spiritual Mass.

That is so how I feel! I’m so glad you can relate!

Where I go now, it’s the 9:00 Mass with a wonderful cantor and the organ. Still a very reverent Mass that lasts at least one hour. I’m happy as long as I don’t have to attend the Saturday evening Mass with the drums and guitars ugh!

Oh man… I can’t even tell you how annoying the drum/guitar Masses are to me… I’ve had the misfortune of attending a couple of them due to waking up late. Definitely not my cup of tea! Hahaha

We do have an old lady that sits 2 pews in front of us who never stands up at the required times, except when it comes to the Our Father and later. She also drinks juice from a little juice cup whenever she wishes. It used to bother me alot, then I decided just to pray for her and tell myself that she is probably ignorant about what should be done and not done during Mass. In case you are wondering if she might be physically disabled or something, I thought maybe she was at first as well, but she walks quickly and normally. It’s just what she does

Oh jeez… I wonder why the priest has never talked to her after Mass? I’m guessing she’s just ignorant about what is supposed to be done

We also have a few people who talk and chat away loudly once in a while, but then again, I think it’s the situation mentioned earlier… uncatechised parishioners, and those who just go because of obligation… or as a social outing. I think that we need to make the choice as Catholics to re-convert ourselves throughout our lives in order to behave like we should during Mass.

Definitely agreed! I would find it extemely irreverent to speak before the Mass if it wasn’t out of necessity.

I could almost guarantee that if all of us here at CAF went to Mass together, at the same time, in the same church, we’d probably have the exact reverence the OP yearns for.

I like to think so too!

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

One little point regarding protestants and dress. First, I’ve only attended one service in a protestant church in my life and that was so long ago, I really don’t remember it. Considering it was a funeral, I believe people were dressed fairly nicely. So obviously I can’t speak from a great deal of experience on this. However, it occurred to me that protestants are not required to attend their services. This means that the people who go are the ones who really want to. If you really want to do something you’re likely to put more effort into it. You don’t see all the people who don’t really want to go because they exercise their options and just don’t go. On the other hand, Catholics are required to go to Mass on Sundays, so quite likely a fair number of them you see are only there because of necessity. It’s more likely that these are the ones that are not making the effort to dress nicely.

That’s just an observation, not a fact, but based on the general behavior I see from various people at my own church, it certainly seems to ring true there.

As for some Catholics being poor and only having jeans to wear to Mass, I don’t consider that as a legitimate excuse. Jeans these days are quite expensive and you can find a decent pair of slacks for a similar price. Bundles of nice clothing can be found at second hand stores as well for those that do not have the funds available to buy them new. It’s a matter of putting in the effort to look decent.

 

[Cat]

Sadly you’re trying to sell the idea that Catholics can’t have the best of everything. That somehow the great God-given gifts like the Eucharist somehow preclude us from organizing van pools, greeting people at the door, dressing modestly for church, arriving on time, being silent in church, singing, not leaving early, taking part in after-liturgy fellowship and all the rest. His great gifts do not preclude us from doing that. In fact, I feel they demand that we do.

Perhaps some of the lurkers and posters on this thread remember the infamous CAF “Coat Rack Thread.”

Heffner, several years ago when I first joined CAF shortly after converting to Catholicism, I started a thread about why Catholic Churches do not have coat racks.

Innocent question, right? Every Protestant church I’ve ever been in, including the older churches, have coat racks, and many have coat rooms. The idea is that when you are sitting in church, you remove your coat since you will be there for an hour or more. Providing a coat rack seems a courteous thing to do, right?

Well, within a few posts, that thread became a furious battleground with people actually claiming that coat racks were a Protestant innovation that isn’t needed in God’s True Church. The thread went all over the place, with lots of accusations about why converts need to leave behind the evils of their Protestant past (coat racks?) and fully embrace Catholicism (no coat racks, leaving our coats on during the Mass–apparently some Catholics are convinced that it is a GIRM requirement to leave coats on during Mass.)

Things got really ugly and eventually the Moderators closed the thread.

I think this thread will probably go the same way. I hear you and I understand you, because I was born and raised Protestant (evangelical), and I am now a very happy and grateful Catholic. I want all the Catholics on this thread to please remember that those of us who are converts walked away from friends, family, childhood, our traditions, our ministries, in some cases our incomes and our 'religion." We gave it all up to join the Catholic Church. So I beg Catholics to please not accuse us of not really being Catholic. That is really hurtful and not true at all.

And Heffner, now that I’ve been Catholic for several years, I reluctantly recommend just giving up and accepting whatever you can get in Mass. You can listen to good music on your iPod, and you can be friendly to people at work, school, gym, ice rink, etc. and in your neighborhood. You don’t have to have any of these things–good music or friendly people–to enjoy Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and receive Him in Holy Communion during the Mass. The best thing to do is seek inner peace. You can see that most Catholics have no clue what you are getting at, so it’s best to just let it rest. You’ll sleep better.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Perhaps some of the lurkers and posters on this thread remember the infamous CAF “Coat Rack Thread.”

Heffner, several years ago when I first joined CAF shortly after converting to Catholicism, I started a thread about why Catholic Churches do not have coat racks.

Innocent question, right? Every Protestant church I’ve ever been in, including the older churches, have coat racks, and many have coat rooms. The idea is that when you are sitting in church, you remove your coat since you will be there for an hour or more. Providing a coat rack seems a courteous thing to do, right?

Problem solved in my church. First off, there is a coat rack, but that’s reserved for functions in the church hall (potlucks and such) and people who come to Mass don’t use it. However, people generally don’t need to use it because their coats stay on. Old building, old heating system, cold church (many times at least) - problem solved!

 

[ProVobis]

I’m a devoted Catholic. However, I can understand why many Catholics decide to join Protestant Churches. I don’t condone it, I don’t recommend it, I fight hard to prevent it. But I understand it.

The claim is that the biggest denomination in the U.S. is/are ex-Catholics. I don’t know if this translates to going to a Protestant church, a non-denominational mega Church, or are just plain stay-at-homes. My guess would be a few in each, though the latter two would probably be more likely.

 

[Heffner]

Perhaps some of the lurkers and posters on this thread remember the infamous CAF “Coat Rack Thread.”

Heffner, several years ago when I first joined CAF shortly after converting to Catholicism, I started a thread about why Catholic Churches do not have coat racks.

Innocent question, right? Every Protestant church I’ve ever been in, including the older churches, have coat racks, and many have coat rooms. The idea is that when you are sitting in church, you remove your coat since you will be there for an hour or more. Providing a coat rack seems a courteous thing to do, right?

Well, within a few posts, that thread became a furious battleground with people actually claiming that coat racks were a Protestant innovation that isn’t needed in God’s True Church. The thread went all over the place, with lots of accusations about why converts need to leave behind the evils of their Protestant past (coat racks?) and fully embrace Catholicism (no coat racks, leaving our coats on during the Mass–apparently some Catholics are convinced that it is a GIRM requirement to leave coats on during Mass.)

Things got really ugly and eventually the Moderators closed the thread.

I think this thread will probably go the same way. I hear you and I understand you, because I was born and raised Protestant (evangelical), and I am now a very happy and grateful Catholic. I want all the Catholics on this thread to please remember that those of us who are converts walked away from friends, family, childhood, our traditions, our ministries, in some cases our incomes and our 'religion." We gave it all up to join the Catholic Church. So I beg Catholics to please not accuse us of not really being Catholic. That is really hurtful and not true at all.

And Heffner, now that I’ve been Catholic for several years, I reluctantly recommend just giving up and accepting whatever you can get in Mass. You can listen to good music on your iPod, and you can be friendly to people at work, school, gym, ice rink, etc. and in your neighborhood. You don’t have to have any of these things–good music or friendly people–to enjoy Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and receive Him in Holy Communion during the Mass. The best thing to do is seek inner peace. You can see that most Catholics have no clue what you are getting at, so it’s best to just let it rest. You’ll sleep better.

God bless you for entering the Catholic Church. Thanks for your comments, which I do agree with. I would suggest there are few coat racks/rooms in Catholic churches because we typically spend so little time inside of our parish churches and there is always plenty of room in the uncrowded pews on which to place them. I also don’t think that we are as intent on appearing at our very best before God. This is not the front room where we hang your hat and coat. This is the family room – feel free to throw your gear on an empty chair.

As far as those who lack the courage to do an inventory on how so many act (and are expected to act) at Mass and instead lash-out with their “real-Catholic” judgments, just ignore them. Their comments are based more on ignorance and insecurity than malice I believe. I have received some very productive comments on this thread including your own. Thanks again.

 

[georgewithfaith]

A couple of weeks ago as I parked my car in the church parking lot before Saturday evening Mass the thought occurred to me about how lucky we are to have this wonderful gift, the Holy Mass, given to us by our Lord. A good number of cars were in the parking lot but I thought to myself one day there will be such a resurgence in the Mass and Catholic faith such that the longest traffic lines will be for people trying to get to Mass. I believe this but I just don’t know when it will happen.