Why do people leave the Catholic Church?

[po18guy]

Love includes deciding to overlook another’s faults. In the case of our Lord, there are no faults to overlook. The faults then, are our own that we must conquer, with His help. And, so it is with His Church. We must overlook the faults of the Church’s members, while realizing that the Church itself has none. We err when we attempt to conform God to our current state rather than conforming ourselves to God. It is the least we can do, since He came in His perfection to meet us in our sinfulness. In the end, we must face the fact that Jesus founded only one Church for all time. Ours is the task of repenting and making ourselves as much like Him as we can, then relying on His mercy.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I have questions:

Where is the “Deny yourself” in just believing whatever you choose to? Isn’t that actually indulging yourself? Jesus told us that the path to the Kingdom is not wide - it’s narrow, requiring sacrifice and denial of the self.

Isn’t disagreeing with (some of) the contents of the CCC essentially making yourself smarter than almost 2,000 years of Spirit-lead theologians? These are serious matters.

No. This is trivializing the process. And there is a full 10,000 year legacy of thinking that needs to be addressed as well. I agree that great weight should and has been given to 2000 years of learning and thinking. But you must agree that many of your own theologians don’t agree on many rather basic themes.

This is over and against the entire wealth of knowledge of the human race. While you may not consider it Spirit-lead, I would not be so quick to dismiss it.

I believe deeply in primacy of conscience. If God wanted robots we would not have the minds we have. We are expected to use them. I don’t disagree with the RCC lightly. It took me years of searching and praying to finally conclude that it’s human agents were not stating scripture correctly. I did not substitute my own personal intepretation, but was convinced by a very large compendium of theologians and biblical experts, a great deal of the Catholic by denomination by the way.

I make no utter claim of being right. Only that my heart leads me this way. I am open minded always and willing at any juncture to reverse course if I am convinced I am wrong.

The old argument that liberals are just knee-jerk feel good followers is simplistic and hardly true in most cases. In some no doubt that is true, but the same proportion of too lazy to be bothered to read exists in the conservative world as well.

 

[FLCatholic]

People leave the Catholic Church because they couldn’t resist the temptations of the world.

If their faith was strong, it would have conquered and resisted any temptation.

Only few will be saved and will see God.

 

[po18guy]

No. This is trivializing the process. And there is a full 10,000 year legacy of thinking that needs to be addressed as well. I agree that great weight should and has been given to 2000 years of learning and thinking. But you must agree that many of your own theologians don’t agree on many rather basic themes.

So, do we pick and choose revealed truth? We know where that process leads us.

This is over and against the entire wealth of knowledge of the human race. While you may not consider it Spirit-lead, I would not be so quick to dismiss it.

We live in the world which is the realm of the evil one. Should we forget that, we are easily lead into error by thoughts and doctrines which appeal to us.

I believe deeply in primacy of conscience.

Yes, but it must be a well-formed conscience! And, if not a single source of teaching (revealed truth) is consulted, confusion and malformation of that conscience can occur.

If God wanted robots we would not have the minds we have. We are expected to use them. I don’t disagree with the RCC lightly. It took me years of searching and praying to finally conclude that it’s human agents were not stating scripture correctly. I did not substitute my own personal intepretation, but was convinced by a very large compendium of theologians and biblical experts, a great deal of the Catholic by denomination by the way.

Free will in action. However, if we choose Him, we are called to choose Him with all of our heart.

 

[wanner47]

I guess there is some point you are trying to make. I read the article. I agree in some respects. You seem to trivialize what is for of us a painful, long process of disengagement in a Church we truly loved. Apparently that doesn’t get through.

My point is that people who expect the Church to conform to their beliefs and political viewpoints never got the entire *point *of Catholicism in the first place – which is that we need to conform our will to Christ’s, not the other way around.

 

[Soler]

Oh would that that could happen here! I just got done reading on another thread that a person got 5 Martyr points because I called his continuing calling of me a heretic because I am Anglican, “disgusting.” Some of us rather suspected this was not a level playing field. Now the cat is out of the bag it seems.

Zat was me. Let’s quickly clear this up.

Firstly, I had only called you a heretic once, and in passing.

Secondly, you called me disgusting, not my actions:

I am not a heretic and you are disgusting for saying such a thing. Who do you think you are after all? I think perhaps some people are more conservative than the church, and most certainly you are way beyond that pale now. Your church Sir would never say such a heinous thing about the Episcopal faith.

Thirdly, you did not give a proper reply to my subsequent post of over 350 words, but a sarcastic, disparaging one-liner:

Thanks for letting us know what many of us suspected.

I think you need to learn some courtesy, and to lighten up a bit while you’re at it.

—Soler.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;4842508:

My experience has been different. I’ve encountered no abuse whatsoever from any Catholic as a result of my participation on this site.

Just thought I’d mention it.:bounce:

Sycophantically,
Mick

Very glad to here that. But I have lost tons of fellow posters here, due to being banned for “uncharitable” comments. The same doesn’t occur on the other side. I am called names here a lot. And now of course we find that the worst offenders actually get martyr points for calling us names.

I have no complaint about the way in which you have responded to me in this or in any other thread but since it’s very evident that you are adept at putting your sentences together yet make no attempt to disguise your hostility toward the Catholic Church I really don’t see why you are raising objections. As you are able to write persuasively you have the option of choosing to influence people for the good. If that’s why you’ve come to this site (and I hope it is) then I wish you well in your endeavor. But if you’re here intending to cause trouble and your purpose is to destroy then I will allow my peace to return to me.

Peace,
Mick

 

[SpiritMeadow]

So, do we pick and choose revealed truth? We know where that process leads us.

You did and we all do. You picked the RCC and concluded that it has the truth. I have come to believe differently. There is no difference at all.

We live in the world which is the realm of the evil one. Should we forget that, we are easily lead into error by thoughts and doctrines which appeal to us.

Why do you assume that we choose doctrines that appeal to us? Hopefully we accept doctrines that we feel deep in our heart reflect truth based on the God we have come to know.

Yes, but it must be a well-formed conscience! And, if not a single source of teaching (revealed truth) is consulted, confusion and malformation of that conscience can occur.Free will in action. However, if we choose Him, we are called to choose Him with all of our heart.

Indeed, one must seriously inform one’s conscience. One must read the writiings and thinkings of many and then follow where the mind suggests the truth lies. One must not conclude that one’s conscience is not formed properly if it doesn’t heel to a particular dogma. That is not conscience by simply following by rote.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

My point is that people who expect the Church to conform to their beliefs and political viewpoints never got the entire *point *of Catholicism in the first place – which is that we need to conform our will to Christ’s, not the other way around.

No church should be forced to conform to the beliefs of its followers, as such. Roman Catholicism is no different than any other faith community in that regard.

What you are really saying is that you believe that Christ himself perfectly guides the RCC in all matters of doctrine. I believe that Christ attempts to do so, but willful individuals have a way of thinking they are doing Christs will when they are not. Humans make errors. Statements are made when thereafter a wealth of scientific, medical, psychological and other information comes to to fore that the original speakers could not have been aware of and would have concluded differently had they known. Therefore, as against what you believe, I believe that there is no perfect assurance that everything the RCC teaches is necessarily full truth.

If it is, there is no such thing as an individual conscience. We need only ask the Church to direct us in every aspect of life.

Essentially I believe that Jesus set down a number of precepts for living a good God filled life, one that would lead to life everlasting. Each church has over time made attempts to interpret that to real life situations. Some have got it right, some wrong. But I suspect no one has it all right, or all wrong. Our duty as sentient spirit-filled individuals is to do our personal best in discerning by prayer and study which is which and following as best we can what we believe is truth. I cannot in good conscience turn that over to an institution, no matter how wonderful it is. And I believe deeply that the RCC doesn’t ask anyone to, and would be appalled at some of its members gutting its own CCC directives to that effect.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Zat was me. Let’s quickly clear this up.

Firstly, I had only called you a heretic once, and in passing.

Secondly, you called me disgusting, not my actions:

Thirdly, you did not give a proper reply to my subsequent post of over 350 words, but a sarcastic, disparaging one-liner:

I think you need to learn some courtesy, and to lighten up a bit while you’re at it.

—Soler.

It is clear that I was referring to your rhetoric. Beyond your words, I know you not, so any further statement by me about you would be ridiculous. I am not replying to anyone who calls me a heretic. your church teaches you no such behavior.

I am sure that CAF is most upset by your letting that little gem out of the bag.

I consider our conversation closed as I said.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I have no complaint about the way in which you have responded to me in this or in any other thread but since it’s very evident that you are adept at putting your sentences together yet make no attempt to disguise your hostility toward the Catholic Church I really don’t see why you are raising objections. As you are able to write persuasively you have the option of choosing to influence people for the good. If that’s why you’ve come to this site (and I hope it is) then I wish you well in your endeavor. But if you’re here intending to cause trouble and your purpose is to destroy then I will allow my peace to return to me.

Peace,
Mick

You are mistaken. I have no hostility toward the RCC at all. I have some serious hostility against some people here, who don’t represent the RCC at all. Many of those who have been banned here were Catholics, in fact most were. They remain my friends. I have many other catholic friends, most of them have visited here, and find the line preached here so far out of line with what is going on in their parishes that they choose not to interact.

I can understand however. Great pressure is put on those who are friendly. At least so I have been told by those who have been kind and have messaged me of the nasty messages they have received.

I continue to love the RCC in many many respects. If I were so hostile, I would surely have looked for a church that was much different in ritual.

 

[Soler]

It is clear that I was referring to your rhetoric.

'Tis not.

Beyond your words, I know you not, so any further statement by me about you would be ridiculous.

:yup: Indeed.

I am not replying to anyone who calls me a heretic.

That is rather petultant. I never once claimed that you were a bad person or anything like it for being a heretic.

your church teaches you no such behavior.

I have already provided you with the words of Aquinas on the matter. I think that they prove my point.

I consider our conversation closed as I said.

As I said, that is rather petultant.

 

[po18guy]

You did and we all do. You picked the RCC and concluded that it has the truth. I have come to believe differently. There is no difference at all.

You have over 3,000 posts here. I am wondering why you would spend so much time on a forum whose members belong to a faith which you disagree with. I find this a point of great curiosity.

Why do you assume that we choose doctrines that appeal to us? Hopefully we accept doctrines that we feel deep in our heart reflect truth based on the God we have come to know.

Unless we are forced to, we all choose doctrines that appeal to us. How else are we to believe anything at all?

Indeed, one must seriously inform one’s conscience. One must read the writiings and thinkings of many and then follow where the mind suggests the truth lies. One must not conclude that one’s conscience is not formed properly if it doesn’t heel to a particular dogma. That is not conscience by simply following by rote.

You are on a journey and your life is not finished. Our conversion is a process. But, please do not reject dogma without fully understanding it.

 

[Soler]

You are mistaken. I have no hostility toward the RCC at all. I have some serious hostility against some people here, who don’t represent the RCC at all.

I presume you refer to people like me. Yes, we do not represent the Church. We merely obey those who do represent her.

Ask the Pope:

–whether Catholics must reject artificial contraception
–whether Catholics must reject ALL abortion
–whether Catholics must reject fornication, masturbation, pornography, and homosexual acts
–whether Catholics must reject divorce and subsequent remarriage before the death of the spouse
–whether Catholics must reject women clergy
–whether Catholics must reject the denial of Purgatory
–whether Catholics must reject the denial of transubstantiation
–whether Catholics must reject the denial of the Immaculate Conception
–whether Catholics must reject the denial of the Assumption of Mary
–whether Catholics must reject all liturgical abuse.

The answer to all would be “yes” although I guess that Benedict would also include some form of gentle, kind explanation as to why, from what I have read of him.

—Soler.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

You have over 3,000 posts here. I am wondering why you would spend so much time on a forum whose members belong to a faith which you disagree with. I find this a point of great curiosity.

I was a RCC when I came here. Certain of your more belligerent members persuaded me I should leave. I was forced to agree that it was hypocritical to remain and moreover I had not the strength for this fight. Many do, and I applaud them. The fact is, there are no decent religious forums around but this. The rest have so few followers that there is no real conversation.

Unless we are forced to, we all choose doctrines that appeal to us. How else are we to believe anything at all?

I would not use the word appeal. I would hope we choose doctrines that make sense, reflect logic, reflect the knowledge we have acquired, and feel spirit driven.

You are on a journey and your life is not finished. Our conversion is a process. But, please do not reject dogma without fully understanding it.

One could not doubt make an argument that full understanding is never acquired. However, when we have read what we think is appropriate and studied as many commentaries and interpretations of it, we must at some point come to a conclusion. I reject of course the conclusion of some that if you don’t agree with dogma, you by definition don’t understand it fully. That is just handing the ball to the Church and letting them decide for you in my opinion.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Who awards the “martyrs points” and how do you sign up for them. If you collect a certain number are they redeemable for something?

 

[Soler]

Who awards the “martyrs points” and how do you sign up for them. If you collect a certain number are they redeemable for something?

Oh no, it was just a joke thing I made up because our dear Anglican friend SpiritMeadow got a bit hot-headed and called me “disgusting” for my legitimate usage of the word “heretic” on another thread.

Here is the link to my post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4843264&postcount=147

—Soler.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Thanks for correcting me. I don’t think there’s any doubt that the Catholic Church is hated. And whatever the degree and extent of that hatred it’s sad that some it emanates from non–Catholic Christians.

Disappointedly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

May our Lord bless you for that. you have seen that the CC is hated not only by the world but more even so by others so called christians. the CC has stood the test of times. many have come and gone but She is still here and she will be until end just like our Lord said.

the CC have been falsely accused over and over again. just like Her Master and the Apostles… and Jesus said this would happened.

Peace.

 

[SSTeacher]

You are mistaken. I have no hostility toward the RCC at all. I have some serious hostility against some people here, who don’t represent the RCC at all. Many of those who have been banned here were Catholics, in fact most were. They remain my friends. I have many other catholic friends, most of them have visited here, and find the line preached here so far out of line with what is going on in their parishes that they choose not to interact.

I can understand however. Great pressure is put on those who are friendly. At least so I have been told by those who have been kind and have messaged me of the nasty messages they have received.

I continue to love the RCC in many many respects. If I were so hostile, I would surely have looked for a church that was much different in ritual.

Fair enough.

I guess we must have encountered different people on this site, then. That can be the only answer because the Catholics with whom I’ve interacted have for the most part been friendly and helpful. If, as you say, they don’t represent the Catholic Church then I’d just like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to whomsoever it is that they do represent before I go off to play with my granddaughter, Callie Jo.

Gratefully,
Mick

 

[Salonika]

I have just read the “The Catholic Church is Not Wal-Mart” article and it makes it seem so very, very easy for a person to leave the Catholic Church or any other church. It makes it seem as if someone should be able to “I no longer believe what this Church teaches” and leave without regret.

Leaving as Spirit Meadow has said can be “a painful, long process of disengagement in a Church we truly loved”. I will always remember my last Sunday at the Church I was very, very, involved in when I handed my keys back and walked out for the last time. I also remember the pain I went through in making the decision to leave.

The fact that I knew that I was doing the correct thing (the gap between my beliefs and its were too great) made me know there was nothing else I could so. This is true for all heretics in the way I understand the word “someone who thinks for themself”.