Why do people leave the Faith. What are we doing wrong?

[WilT]

WilT;12243065:

WilT;12241206:

I’m not sure what you are saying, and I’m really not sure why you are setting up full participation at Mass and seeing to the “bonds of peace”

You do remember that I have plainly said that fraternal correction is part of fraternal charity, right? I am only noting that if you think that the faith consists of being perfect and “fraternally” correcting other people’s faults with no thought to seeing to their needs, you have missed the boat. Fraternal charity needs the whole package.

KINDNESS I remember Jesus throwing over the money changers tables and calling I believe the Pharisees Viper! Do you believe them two being uncharitable or being deficient on “bonds of peace”. Our Faith sometime calls us towards correction. First of ourselves and then others. Some folks don’t like to be corrected I bet. I don’t recall Easter Joy you making the statement of correcting fraternal errors.

 

[alexandratm]

WilT;12243065:

WilT;12241206:

I’m not sure what you are saying, and I’m really not sure why you are setting up full participation at Mass and seeing to the “bonds of peace” in the Church one against the other, as if the two were in competition. Are you saying that as a Christian, it is none of your concern if somebody gets their feelings hurt by the way you choose to treat them or how you choose to correct them?

Kindness is an indispensable part of fraternal charity. I don’t know how one can read the epistles in their plain sense and not get that. As St. Augustine put it (as quoted by Pope St. John Paul II): Whoever receives the mystery of unity without preserving the bonds of peace receives not a mystery for his benefit but evidence against himself

.

“'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.” (Matt. 25:40)–that is in the context of the Final Judgment. It must be pretty important, yes?

You do remember that I have plainly said that fraternal correction is part of fraternal charity, right? I am only noting that if you think that the faith consists of being perfect and “fraternally” correcting other people’s faults with no thought to seeing to their needs, you have missed the boat. Fraternal charity needs the whole package.

Yes, so much this. I can’t imagine my grandmother would ever have returned if someone had approached her in the manner some in this thread are advocating.

 

[Fogwalker]

Suppose that I asked two kinds of questions on these forums.

The first type would be along the lines of: “Why is abortion wrong?” or “Why should a homosexual person refrain from having a sexual relationship?” I’m sure that I would get dozens of eloquent answers. The second type would be along the lines of: “Can you help me care for my child for the next 18 years?” or “Can you do something to put my soul at peace if this same sex attraction is so wrong?” I would wager that few would respond with anything tangible and serious.

Jesus preached truth that was applicable to everyone for all time, yet frequently made time for the most specific, material needs of the individual people He encountered. The loudest voices in the Catholic Church are big on preaching universal truth but rarely make an unconditional effort to help the individual needs of the people they are preaching to. This one-sided approach to evangelization is inconsistent with Jesus’ message, even if the words and logic that they are preaching is 100% true. Young people see that inconsistency, and it erodes the Church’s credibility.

 

[EasterJoy]

…I don’t recall Easter Joy you making the statement of correcting fraternal errors.

Pretty much, yes. Let us remember what the dogma is: Those who have been given the opportunity to accept the faith are duty-bound to accept it. What can be left legitimately at issue is what “given the opportunity” means in any particular case. That is a judgment that belongs to God, who alone reads hearts. So while it is a duty for an evangelist to say, “This is what you must believe and accept,” that does not mean the evangelist has the office to condemn those who don’t accept the message.

It is like the difference between saying, “If you shoot and kill a thief running away from your home, that is murder in this state”–something you have a duty to tell a neighbor who hotly pronounces that he’ll do just that if he catches anyone thieving on his property–and seeing someone who seems to have done just that and saying, “You shot him? Hey, neighbors, we have a murderer right here. We can see the evidence. Let’s string him up right here and now.” We have the duty to communicate to our neighbor what moral law is, and not just say, “Well, that isn’t the way I see it, but maybe I’m wrong. I guess after you go ahead and shoot someone, we’ll see who was right. Maybe we’re both wrong.” If we know the law, we have to say so. We do not have the authority to be judge or jury when we learn of a transgression, though.

This is something we can allow each other: OK, you’ve told me what I have to believe, you’ve done your duty, what I do with what you say is on my head. I can preach to you, you can preach to me, we can both say at the same time that we have the truth. That isn’t offensive. At some point, though, we need to leave the other person to discern what to do with what they have heard and seen. That is between them and God. There is no reason I can’t live with the knowledge that someone else will not believe the truth or that I can’t live with the knowledge that someone believes I am in grave error myself. That is not an inherently offensive situation–that is, neither of us has to say, “Well, you may be right” in order to be respectful. We can stick to our guns and believe we have the truth; that doesn’t harm the people who think we’re wrong, nor does it harm us to speak the truth and not be believed. What ought to be defended is the ability to do one’s duty with regards to speaking the truth as one has been given to see the truth.

and

I would venture to say that it is **every bit as important **to speak up when some attempt is made to lay burdens not imposed by the Church onto the faithful as if they were taught by the Church as it is to speak up when someone tries to subtract something from the faith.

*I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. * Rev. 22:18-19

I taught my catechism students that while it was not intended for metaphorical language to be taken literally–surely many truths are beyond the capacity of human language to convey them literally and yet fully–serious metaphors ought to still be taken seriously. Not literally. Definitely just as seriously as if they were meant literally.

Yes, I think I have been clear that we have a duty to correct those who are in error. Not to argue with them. To correct them. That duty, by the way, takes into account whether or not we have any pastoral authority over someone else. The pastor and the parent both have a greater duty to correct, while a brother or sister ought to be more sparing with correcting others not under his or her authority.

OK, now could you please explain why the idea of being loving towards your neighbor sent you into such a tizzy about the Mass? I still do not understand where on earth that came from.

 

[WilT]

OK, now could you please explain why the idea of being loving towards your neighbor sent you into such a tizzy about the Mass? I still do not understand where on earth that came from.

lol. I was attempting to have you clarify which of the two took priority. Loving God (as in the Mass) or being friendly with others looking to please them.

A Truce is fine. Our approaches may differ but our intent is good. I don’t see myself turning any tables upside down anytime soon

 

[EasterJoy]

OK, now could you please explain why the idea of being loving towards your neighbor sent you into such a tizzy about the Mass? I still do not understand where on earth that came from.

Sounds fair!

 

[dedo]

Another reason people may be turning away from religion is that religion does not seem relevant to their lives in this secular world.

The Protestants have tried to combat this somewhat with self-help sermons. Although these efforts do reach a lot of people, the message that will be effective in reaching the bulk of non-practicing people seems to be elusive at this point.

 

[EasterJoy]

Another reason people may be turning away from religion is that religion does not seem relevant to their lives in this secular world…

The question is why people think religion isn’t relevant.

I would say that they think:

1. God doesn’t exist, or at least a personal God doesn’t exist, and definitely no God who could possibly have the Christian version of salvation history as a plan for humanity does not exist.
2. If God exists, God doesn’t want, need, or like organized religion.
3. If God exists, God does not care and it doesn’t do any good to care about God.
4. If God exists, God is not offended by people “having a good time” or “enjoying life” and is instead offended by people who try to keep other people from doing those things.
5. Religion is for a certain kind of person, and I am not that kind of a person.
6. If you have cancer, you don’t need God. You need a good oncologist. If you have a fever, you don’t need God. You need targeted antibiotic therapy. If your country is at war, you don’t need God. You need mediators to help your leaders dialogue with the opposition’s leaders, because leadership is the problem. “Real” people don’t start wars. If you need anything, God is the last entity on earth that is going to help you. You need to help yourself or you need to find an expert to take care of your problem or you need to make the public aware of the problem, because if they aren’t ignorant of the right thing, they’ll do the right thing. God and those who rely on God aren’t going to do anything.

And so on. The bottom line is that people either don’t think God is relevant or else they don’t think there is much of a connection between God and those who preach about God and pray to God, which makes religion irrelevant at best and damaging at worst.

Religion, my friends, is being demonized. The question is a) in what ways are we earning a bad reputation for the Church and b) in what ways does the marginalization of God and of religion come from lies being spread about religion, rather than from scandals that come from how we religious people act?

At least we know this is not a new problem, but rather an old problem returned to us:

Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. For: “Whoever would love life and see good days must keep the tongue from evil and the lips from speaking deceit, must turn from evil and do good, seek peace and follow after it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears turned to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against evildoers.” Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good? But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil.
1 Peter 3:8-17

 

[dedo]

Perhaps I should have said that the solution may be to find a way to make religion relevant to people’s lives.

Protestants have tried with “self-help” sermons and messages. However, messages, homilies, and sacraments, don’t help people who don’t show up.

Maybe there is something else that has not been tried?

Considering that people spend hours every day looking at t.v. or internet, perhaps there is a way to demonstrate why using some of that time to seek God is relevant to their lives.

 

[paulrxp]

Another reason people may be turning away from religion is that religion does not seem relevant to their lives in this secular world.

The Protestants have tried to combat this somewhat with self-help sermons. Although these efforts do reach a lot of people, the message that will be effective in reaching the bulk of non-practicing people seems to be elusive at this point.

Yes I saw that the other day on TV. You would not have been able to distinguish whether it was a sermon or a talk show. No way am I knocking it,at least there was a message of faith behind it all. Still, God was not the priority. It was about what God could do for me, instead of how I can change my life for God so I can experience his heavenly Kingdom here on Earth.

At some point though, these people in attendance may ask themselves: If I can participate in a faith based self help discussion oriented group that identifies itself as a church, why would I need to attend or even include faith in my life if it really is the self help I’m primarily seeking?? I could get that elsewhere This is not just a protestant thing either(though it’s more-so because of individualism in protestanism) . With regards to the Catholic Church, this can happen as well, but often that question is asked when they don’t agree with a Church teaching. Ultimately, it leads to seeking answers elsewhere that often are more conforming to their personal beliefs. The self first, still applies.

Moral relativism is in the equation somewhere. The cultural war began several decades ago, and it was many social pressures that promoted sin vs the moral social order that was always held together by Christianity and those who professed belief in God…

I heard an argument the other day that freedom and individualism is also part of this very complex puzzle. This I tend to agree with. We who love Christ know the Truth will set us free, however to the secular world, most of the problems faced in society that ultimately leads many to lose faith begins with unbounded freedoms to reject the truths of moral teachings. We know our Catholic faith teaches us that Hell is a separation from Gods love, and that love is the happiness we will all desire to experience… Hell is not a place though, but a state. If that is the case, then Hell can exist here on Earth, and most certainly after death. This is why it’s important to know who God is and why he matters. The disconnect of rejecting him by definition is whether you live the joy of his heavenly love, or the despair of Hell from your separation from Him.

Only someone who lives and understands faith in God will even listen to this rationale. That is, that someone other them themselves(God) has to take priority. If I were to post this on a secular forum, I would get tarred and feathered, be mocked. Many who are living in despair and seeking answers will not with honest humility submit that their understanding of their relationship(or lack of it) with God is at the heart of their discontent which ultimately pushes them further away from faith.

 

[EasterJoy]

People are going to leave the faith and will attempt to subvert the faith:

*For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. *2 Tim. 2:4

Our task is to make certain that no one leaves on account of scandal: because they saw little love among the faithful, because they heard falsehood taught, because they were offended against in the name of the Gospel. We must strenuously avoid these things, and we must avoid these things whether or not we are aware of anyone leaving on account of this kind of failure on our part.

Likewise, we must strenuously avoid watering down the faith or tolerating falsehoods in the misguided hope that this will “keep people from leaving.” Let no one leave because we lack charity or any other virtue. Let us resign ourselves to the unfortunate truth that some will leave for the wrong reasons, no matter what we do, and that we do not have the authority to try to keep them by resorting to the wrong measures.

It is on our head to live the Gospel in a way that will not leave it open to accusation or suspicion. We cannot live it in such a way to protect it from all false accusation, and we can harm the Church by trying. That kind of persecution will come, and we must not be lured into combatting it by using false measures of “defense.”

 

[WilT]

People are going to leave the faith and will attempt to subvert the faith:

*For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity,

Likewise, we must strenuously avoid watering down the faith or tolerating falsehoods in the misguided hope that this will “keep people from leaving.” *

I like these three points. I may ad that some that don’t agree with some aspects of our Faith are also attempting to subvert the Faith before our very noses.

There are also a mentality within our Faith that in order to keep the masses at Church we need to ‘entertain them’. This to me is ‘watering down the faith’

 

[WilT]

Yes I saw that the other day on TV. You would not have been able to distinguish whether it was a sermon or a talk show. No way am I knocking it,at least there was a message of faith behind it all. Still, God was not the priority. It was about what God could do for me, instead of how I can change my life for God so I can experience his heavenly Kingdom here on Earth.

We know our Catholic faith teaches us that Hell is a separation from Gods love, and that love is the happiness we will all desire to experience… Hell is not a place though, but a state. If that is the case, then Hell can exist here on Earth, and most certainly after death.

I believe you have most of it right. The message is clearly ‘me centered’ and worth ‘knocking’. TV. shows today are horrible. They seem to want to educate the viewers in some type of pseudo Christianity. They bring out these so called ‘experts’ which they pick up at any secular liberal college or university and they come up with some lame and wild theories on Christianity. I end up turning it off instead.

thanks for the reminder that Hell is a state rather than a place.

 

[theCrow]

Why do people leave the Faith:

Well many logical, kind, good hearted, God loving, wonderful people believe that enjoying sexual pleasure and being sexual is not a sin at all. These are your friends, family and neighbors. They should not be defined or judged because of what they do in their bedrooms. Yet…that seems to be ALL that “we are doing wrong”…judging these actions as morally wrong and dooming them to eternal Hell. Maybe just focus on the positives and other good things in their lives. It seems, especially here, there is some serious sexual repression going on, as the MAJORITY of threads here are about sexual topics, ie masturbation, homosexuality, birth control, pre marital sex, lust, etc…

 

[Sy_Noe]

I not a bit think skin, and I have already faced and am still here. Just so you know this not a forum for strictly Catholic who love the Church, so may want to know that now so you would get to worked up later.

You speak your truth, none of know what the real truth is, we believe we do. Only God KNOWS what the truth is, that is what people like you don’t like to here. I have faith and beliefs, but I will have to wait to know the truth.

shelby sun, it does take faith and belief to be Catholic and I don’t know why Catholics here don’t like to hear that they believe they know rather than know. Why do you think this is? Do they just have such a need to be say they are right and everyone else is wrong?

 

[Sy_Noe]

I not a bit think skin, and I have already faced and am still here. Just so you know this not a forum for strictly Catholic who love the Church, so may want to know that now so you would get to worked up later.

You speak your truth, none of know what the real truth is, we believe we do. Only God KNOWS what the truth is, that is what people like you don’t like to here. I have faith and beliefs, but I will have to wait to know the truth.

Well said. It takes faith to be Catholic and believing you know the truth isn’t exactly the same as knowing. That’s part of faith. So why do you suppose Catholics don’t like hearing this? Catholics going around saying they know the truth rather than admitting they just believe they know is something that turns me off and attracts me to some of the Protestant faiths which allow more diversity on some things while they remain united in worship and in Christ as Lord and Savior. Is it that Catholics just have such a need to say they are right and everyone else is wrong?

 

[Lormar]

Why do people leave the Faith? I would tell you why I want to leave but my post wouldn’t see the light of day long here on CAF without both it and me getting booted out the door. Most unfortunate.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Why do people leave the Faith:

Well many logical, kind, good hearted, God loving, wonderful people believe that enjoying sexual pleasure and being sexual is not a sin at all. These are your friends, family and neighbors. They should not be defined or judged because of what they do in their bedrooms. Yet…that seems to be ALL that “we are doing wrong”…judging these actions as morally wrong and dooming them to eternal Hell. Maybe just focus on the positives and other good things in their lives. It seems, especially here, there is some serious sexual repression going on, as the MAJORITY of threads here are about sexual topics, ie masturbation, homosexuality, birth control, pre marital sex, lust, etc…

Didn’t the Holy Father asked Catholics to spread the focus around just a bit more?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Why do people leave the Faith? I would tell you why I want to leave but my post wouldn’t see the light of day long here on CAF without both it and me getting booted out the door. Most unfortunate.

It is sad you feel you can not answer the question and engage in dialogue as to why you want to leave and have people actually listen to your reasons without the fear you have.

 

[Lormar]

It is sad you feel you can not answer the question and engage in dialogue as to why you want to leave and have people actually listen to your reasons without the fear you have.

What is sad is that you didn’t understand my post.