Why do people who say that they believe in the Bible...

[sambos671]

REPLY: Good post, thanks!

One needs to understand that today’s country Israel has darn little to do with the “Old Testamnet” Jewish nation.

As a Nation Israel has NO NATIONAL religion. They certainly are not, as a Nation, Christian! So asking if this or that bible quote, seems hardly to apply?

What is taking place is political and self-preservation motivated. Is it “just,” hardly! But is Hamas swearing to remove from the face of the earth the Nation of Israel, "just? hardy.

Both sides sides ar wrong, and neither side seems aware of Chrsitian Moral Values. So let us pray for both sides:blush:

God bless you!

PJM m.c.

BVM, please intercede for peace and please lead us to your Son.

you’re right modernday Israel is not the same as Moses’ Israel. Doesn’t mean that the palestinians are not terrorist. Doesn’t mean that give them half the chance they will blow you up just because you’re christian. Palestinians are wrong in this engagement just like they were wrong in Germany killing Olympic athletes, Just like they were wrong trying to Kill the King of Jordan, Just like they were wrong in tipping Lebanon over the edge.

 

[phil8888]

This is an awesome comment on the youtube video:

Hamas fires rockets daily into Israel for years, violating the ceasefire.

Hamas continues to illegally smuggle in weapons for years, violating the ceasefire.

Hamas continues to tunnel into Israel to commit acts of terror, violating the ceasefire.

Israel responds and CNN blames them? Pull up your pants CNN, your bias is showing.

 

[Reuben_J]

… continue to support Israel’s disproportionate attacks on the Palestinian population?

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. … Exodus 21:23-25

To kill over 600 people so far and maim thousands of others and then dismiss them as being mere “collateral damage” just because their side’s rockets have killed a a few of your own people surely cannot be the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity.

Don’t these people believe that “an eye for an eye” as in the Biblical verses above is a divine command and therefore there is a divine reason why this command was sent down?

Is there anything in the Bible that allows for the killing and maiming of literally thousands of Palestinians in response to the harm done to a few Israelis?

This whole mess is caused by people who love their own creation called Israel more than they love humankind.

Or are the Palestinians considered less than human that they should deserve to be slaughtered in such numbers?

I just want to comment on your statement and on the title of this thread.

This is grossly misleading and untrue. We seem to encounter a statement of this nature quite regularly from Muslims where you put on a wrong premise and begin your accusation from it.

Let it be understood that the support of Israel from among Christians are not unanimous. It’s not like how Muslims support the Palestinians by even wanting to fight and die for them. The Iranians and the Indonesians are clamoring to fight the Israelis. You also have numerous demonstrations worldwide in protest against the Israelis and in support of the Palestinians. You must be thinking Christian support of Israel is similar to Muslim support of Palestine. For your information, it is not. And like I said it is not even unanimous among Christians.

As far as theological reason is concerned, Israel got nothing to do with Christians. Jesus changed all that. We don’t need the erection of the third temple or that Israel is the focus of Christian faith. But the Hebrews were God chosen people and Judeo-Christian culture is something familiar to the Christians. I do not deny that many Christians do support Israel because of its Biblical background. But this kind of support is basically personal in nature.

The official Catholic position on the Israeli-Arab war should be as taken by the Pope and the Vatican statements are always fair and abhor violence that happens on both sides.

Generally speaking it would be the question of the existence of the state of Israel, which was agreed upon in principle by the League of Nations and subsequently confirmed by the United Nation. Practically Israel is surrounded by giant Arab nations and its area constitutes but just a small fraction of Arab lands. The two states should exist side by side according to previous agreements and all should be well.

Now you tell us why the war still persist there? Obviously there are people who do not want it and do not want Israel to exist.

As a Muslim here, maybe you can give your personal opinion because I find Muslims reaction to all this is unreasonably emotional. Do you agree that Israel should exist? Do you agree with the agreement that’s been brokered and agreed upon to be implemented peacefully? BTW the late Arafat rejected the Camp David and the Oslo Accord at the last minute.

 

[rikkk1958]

I think Hamba2han is trying to make a statement regarding Christian’s position that is more in alliance with Israelis than the Palestinians whereas in the Bible, the “eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth” in the old testament is not anymore applicable in Jesus’ time and he is wondering why Christians still support Israeli even with “disproportionate” attacks Israeli inflicted to the Palestinian people.

Well, this is true because we believed that the Muslims community does not support any other people aside from the Muslims. To be allied with the Jewish people is our Christian’s obligation to defend the chosen people of God even though they continue to disobey the prophesies in the Bible. We will never know the purpose of God but we know that God is looking after His chosen people.

Muslims conflict with Israelis are more of religion than occupation of the land and because they are more successful made Muslims envious especially the Jerusalem issue. Christians cannot afford to leave Israelis alone against its Muslim foes. We know the true intention of Islam and we cannot make that happen. We have every right to reject the teachings of Islam based on what truly is the Word of God, not from a mere man who claimed otherwise.

 

[hamba2han]

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"

I do not know why this should be so difficult for people to understand and therefore, perhaps I need to put it in another way:

Suppose a Muslim and a Jew got into a heated argument and in the resultant fight, the Muslim connects with a punch and the Jew looses a tooth.

Would the Jew then have the right to grab a Uzi submachine gun and gun down the Muslim together with every member of his family and also demolish his home with a bulldozer for good measure?

Quite a few Christians would indeed say ‘Yes’ because the Jew belongs to a special group of people who supposedly had been chosen by God to enjoy a privileged status in society… at the expense of other groups by the way.

The question that these Christians need to ask themselves is → Is this what the Bible teaches?

Kindly refer to my earlier post for the answer.

 

[sambos671]

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"

I do not know why this should be so difficult for people to understand and therefore, perhaps I need to put it in another way:

Suppose a Muslim and a Jew got into a heated argument and in the resultant fight, the Muslim connects with a punch and the Jew looses a tooth.

Would the Jew then have the right to grab a Uzi submachine gun and gun down the Muslim together with every member of his family and also demolish his home with a bulldozer for good measure?

Quite a few Christians would indeed say ‘Yes’ because the Jew belongs to a special group of people who supposedly had been chosen by God to enjoy a privileged status in society… at the expense of other groups by the way.

The question that these Christians need to ask themselves is → Is this what the Bible teaches?

Kindly refer to my earlier post for the answer.

Nonsense we’re not talking about civil disputes here. We’re talking about military campaigning. Its war. Civil disputes are different than war. In war you have to outmatch your opponent and its a disingenuous argument any way do you think the palestinians would play less the victim if Israel launched missles or rockets at Gaza? Not on your life.

 

[hamba2han]

So your point is that because Israel didn’t let Hamas finish the tunnel it was going to use to kill and kidnap Israeli soldiers, that Israel broke the cease fire in November? That’s what your going with??

In the history of warfare, ceasefire periods have always been used by both sides to regroup and so there is nothing for Israel to complain about here.

Ceasefire does not mean an end to hostilities, it means just that i.e. a temporary ceasefire agreement… and Israel broke it, not Hamas.

 

[reteeks21]

In the history of warfare, ceasefire periods have always been used by both sides to regroup and so there is nothing for Israel to complain about here.

Ceasfire does not mean an end to hostilities, it means just that i.e. a temporary ceasefire agreement… and Israel broke it, not Hamas.

What about the ones before that? Oh wait! It doesn’t matter that Hamas broke them because you have a vendetta! This arguement is pointless and circular. It is impossible to talk with a wall.

 

[Valke2]

In the history of warfare, ceasefire periods have always been used by both sides to regroup and so there is nothing for Israel to complain about here.

Ceasefire does not mean an end to hostilities, it means just that i.e. a temporary ceasefire agreement… and Israel broke it, not Hamas.

In a Cease fire, if you build a tunnel into enemy territory, you don’t get a free ride. As you yourself said, this is a war.

 

[Parabol]

In the history of warfare, ceasefire periods have always been used by both sides to regroup and so there is nothing for Israel to complain about here.

Ceasefire does not mean an end to hostilities, it means just that i.e. a temporary ceasefire agreement… and Israel broke it, not Hamas.

Hamas broke it repeatedly in the 6 months since the ceasefire in June (July?) was declared.
If Israel withdrew from Gaza and didn’t launch any attacks, are we to belive Hamas would stop attacking? Of course not. It is a tragic war but not unjustified on Israel’s part.

 

[hamba2han]

Hamas broke it repeatedly in the 6 months since the ceasefire in June (July?) was declared.
If Israel withdrew from Gaza and didn’t launch any attacks, are we to belive Hamas would stop attacking? Of course not. It is a tragic war but not unjustified on Israel’s part.

To determine whether or not these attacks by Israel are justified or not, Christians really do need to refer to the teachings of the Bible for moral guidance.

However, the fact of the matter is that most Christians are NOT at all referring to what the Bible teaches but they are instead relying on their own moral compass to differentiate between right and wrong and whether something is evil or good.

Christians need to realise that the only One who has the right to decide on moral issues such as the legitimacy of the Israeli attacks on Gaza is God alone and no one else.

 

[JonNC]

hamba2han;
Maybe a tad off topic, but it might help us understand your position. A simple yes or no question.

Does Israel have a right to exist in peace within the borders
established in 1948?

Yes or No

Jon

 

[Valke2]

To determine whether or not these attacks by Israel are justified or not, Christians really do need to refer to the teachings of the Bible for moral guidance.

The Torah tells us that the Amorites planned to ambush the Jewish people as they traveled through a mountain pass; however, Hashem brought about a miracle that destroyed those who were waiting in ambush.

In their attack, the Amelekites hit from the rear and sought to kill those least able to defend themselves. Some wonder why these actions earned the Amelekites not just a place in the “enemies” category, but led God to make them a people to be slaughtered without mercy.

One idea is that Amelek acted with hubris. Not only did the Amelekites take on the Israelites, but they attacked God by assaulting those who were least secure. “You shall not imperil the rights of the stranger or the orphan” (Deuteronomy 24:17). To attack those God is most concerned with is, in itself, an attack on God; thus were the Amelekites to be sworn enemies of both God and Israel.
jewishexponent.com/article/13797/

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han;
Maybe a tad off topic, but it might help us understand your position. A simple yes or no question.

Does Israel have a right to exist in peace within the borders
established in 1948?

Yes or No

Jon

I have explained my position on another thread and here it is again:

Some 20 years ago, most people in West Germany and indeed much of the West advocated the demise of East Germany.

And as history has unfolded, the demise of East Germany has brought about a lot more good than harm to the world at large… and no one needed to be killed in the process, I think.

Why then should people be so concerned about the demise of the state of Israel in the land of Palestine?

The world would become a great deal better and safer place to live in IMHO.

After all, the region was certainly a very much more peaceful place to live in for hundreds of years before Zionism came to Palestine in the late 19th Century.

And so, the answer to your question is ‘No’, I do not accept that the state of Israel has any right whatsoever to exist in the land of Palestine.

However, when it comes to the matter of Israel being relocated elsewhere, kindly refer to this post on the same thread.

 

[JonNC]

And so, the answer to your question is ‘No’, I do not accept that the state of Israel has any right whatsoever to exist in the land of Palestine.

However, when it comes to the matter of Israel being relocated elsewhere, kindly refer to this post on the same thread.

hamba2han,
First, thank you for an honest answer. Hamas agrees with you, and that is why the bloodshed continues. It is why I do not consider Israel’s response to be disproportional.
I pray for peace, but I support Israel’s right to defend itself, and relocation is not a reasonable solution. Palestine can live in peace with Israel, just as Egypt and Jordan do. It could happen tomorrow if the Palestinian leaders of both parties chose it to.
And if the past is any indicator, I’d bet a Palestinian state dedicated to a peaceful two-state future would get more aid for recovery from Israel than from many of the Arab countries.

Jon

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han,
First, thank you for an honest answer. Hamas agrees with you, and that is why the bloodshed continues. It is why I do not consider Israel’s response to be disproportional.
I pray for peace, but I support Israel’s right to defend itself, and relocation is not a reasonable solution. Palestine can live in peace with Israel, just as Egypt and Jordan do. It could happen tomorrow if the Palestinian leaders of both parties chose it to.
And if the past is any indicator, I’d bet a Palestinian state dedicated to a peaceful two-state future would get more aid for recovery from Israel than from many of the Arab countries.

Jon

If you say that the Israeli response is not disproportionate, then you obviously are following your own moral compass because this is NOT what the Bible teaches about the moral extent and limits of retaliation i.e. “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.

 

[JonNC]

If you say that the Israeli response is not disproportionate, then you obviously are following your own moral compass because this is NOT what the Bible teaches about the moral extent and limits of retaliation i.e. “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.

My understanding is that is a response in civil/criminal matters, not that of national survival. Let’s not forget that this isn’t just Hamas shooting rockets into Israel, it is indirectly Iran. So, this is a matter of national survival for Israel.

One must wonder if we would have ever defeated the Nazis were we to take your approach. By definition, wars would last hundreds of years were it simply a matter of “proportional response”.
Reminds me of a (original) Star Trek episode where to worlds were at war, but it was waged via a computer. Ok, rambling.

BTW, you didn’t respond to my post directly.

Jon

 

[sambos671]

If you say that the Israeli response is not disproportionate, then you obviously are following your own moral compass because this is NOT what the Bible teaches about the moral extent and limits of retaliation i.e. “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”.

You’re out of your mind. The law with regard to eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is for civil issues such as fighting between two people and a pregnant woman gets hurt accidentally and looses the baby. Eye for an Eye has nothing to do with war. Israel and Gaza have a War and this is what Joshua was told
to drive out the nations. Jericho everyone was killed God told Joshua to do the same at Ai. You’re taking the eye for an eye out of Context. What is going on today is between two nations not an internal civil matter.

 

[Valke2]

ANd when it comes to national survival, as set forth in my previous post, God tells us to take no prisoners. So Ham should be careful for what he asks for.

 

[rikkk1958]

I have explained my position on another thread and here it is again:

Some 20 years ago, most people in West Germany and indeed much of the West advocated the demise of East Germany.

And as history has unfolded, the demise of East Germany has brought about a lot more good than harm to the world at large… and no one needed to be killed in the process, I think.

Why then should people be so concerned about the demise of the state of Israel in the land of Palestine?

The world would become a great deal better and safer place to live in IMHO.

After all, the region was certainly a very much more peaceful place to live in for hundreds of years before Zionism came to Palestine in the late 19th Century.

And so, the answer to your question is ‘No’, I do not accept that the state of Israel has any right whatsoever to exist in the land of Palestine.

However, when it comes to the matter of Israel being relocated elsewhere, kindly refer to this post on the same thread.

There is no comparison on E Germany and Palestine issue. Let history tell you my friend that the hebrews had been in the Palestine for quite some time and perhaps most of them are in the same area before the land was called Palestine. Palestine came from a small town named Philistine thus was adopted as its name later on. The naatives who converted to islam cannot claim the land alone because the hebrews who later on became jews lived there also and actually native people also.

The persecution by the turks on jews had them flee in great numbers but some remained which later on the Palestinians who became muslims were becoming numerous thus became the majority population of Palestine. However, the jews came back from exile and inhabited the land again numerous as more than the Palestinian muslims. In 1948 the UN granted Israel 51% of the land and 49% for Palestinian muslims. It was not accepted by the Arab world who declared war on Israel. But the outcome was like God’s work. After six days, God’s work was finished.