Why do people who say that they believe in the Bible...

[Reuben_J]

IMHO Muslims and Palestinians hate Jews and Israel so much that they can’t see past their own hatred. I think for some reason the fact that Jews and Israel exist gnaws at the very inner being of these people because its an afront to their heritage in brings into perspective that God did choose Issac over Ishmael and the Amonites and the Moabites and the Midianites. That God chose Jacob over Edom and his desendents. Though there heritage maybe be partly traced back to these ancient peoples they are affronted that their heritage wasn’t chosen to occupy Canaan.

Yes, it seems to look that way. The ancient bad blood seems to rear its head again in modern day generation of Arabs. This is something that is difficult for us non-Muslims to understand. To me Islam is a religion that imposes unnecessary obstacle on its followers (Muslims). Instead of liberating it imprisons its followers with its set premise of tying its root to Ishmael and the non-chosen people.

The old rivalry of the Hebrews and the other Semitic people are being carried over today in the form of religious affiliation of Islam. If one really thinks about it, this merely concerns the Arabs who are the descendants of Ishmael. Muslims of other races theoretically should not share the same sentiment. But that’s not what we see today.

Islam is a chosen religion for one primary purpose it confronts the God who chose Israel. The God who became man and died for our sins.

…

As a Christian this one fact makes me think that it is not from God. I have stated my opinion about Islam in many previous threads based on its rejection of the God in the Bible and of Jesus (as we know he is). The only person who promotes this theology is definitely not God but His enemy. I try to play down this thinking and would not state it bluntly unless I have to, in deference to many Muslim posters here. Obviously this is irreconcilable difference between Christianity and Islam.

 

[NDN]

What if Mexico or Canada had been sending missles at American cities every day for 6 mos? I truly hope the end of this current battle in this very long war will end soon, but all nations have the right to look to their national security. Hamas and Hezbollah attacking by rockets have awakened the sleeping tiger, just like Japan did in 41. They should have honored the ceasefire. They chose open war hoping the UN or the Arab nations would back them up.

 

[rtconstant]

Hamba2han,

While I share your concern for the suffering of the Palestinians, and they are indeed suffering. I believe you’ve over simplified these events. “Eye for an eye” is reference for proportional justice in civil disputes. The Old Testament instructions for the Israelites in war are completely different. You honestly should thank God that they don’t follow the Old Testament instructions in this war. If they did then they would not stop until every Palestinian is dead.

I should think that none of us want that.

As to a Christian view, our belief is that Jesus taught to hand out mercy instead of an eye for an eye. “Turn the other cheek.” Of course neither Jews nor Muslim are Christian so I’m not sure it is entirely fair to hold either accountable to a doctrinal understanding they may not hold. Also I don’t know of a single nation which follows Jesus’ example in this regard.

Finally this isn’t a religious war but secular one that some have placed religious trappings on. Hamas as an elected government attacked Israel a sovereign nation. Israel retaliated. I’m not going to argue whether or not Hamas was justified, or if the secular state of Israel should enjoy biblical assumptions, wiser minds than mine have struggled with those questions.

However, from a purely political standpoint this is a war like any other. You may view Hamas as courageous, others may view Israel as justified. The only thing I know is that these two governments have fomented a great deal of death, and it is the Jewish and Palestinian civilians who pay the price and they pay it in blood. I think they’re should be two sovereign states in Palestine, and governments who truly want peace should be at the leadership.

You may be right Hamba2han that Israel’s response is disproportionate (biblical or not), and I fully acknowledge your right to feel this way. What you need to do though, and really what all of us need is to not blindly take one side or another. There really isn’t a side other than the death of innocent people is wrong on both sides of the fence. Israel may be going to far, but Hammas must accept that their actions led directly to this conflict, and their cowardess in hiding behind those whom they should be protecting makes them not worth any international respect.

My heart aches for both Palestinians and Israelis who did nothing to start any of this but will die nonetheless. Our world is full of corrupt governments and hatred these are our enemies.

 

[hamba2han]

Do Christians believe that in the eyes of God, an armed robber does NOT have the right to defend himself against the people whom he has robbed?

The Palestinians have had their land stolen by armed robbers and therefore I would say that in the eyes of God, the Israelis do NOT have the right to harm the Palestinians who are only fighting to reclaim the land that was stolen from them.

Stealing land in the name of God has already earned the Zionists the wrath of their Lord… but to kill and harm the people who they have stolen it from surely would mean an especially long and severe punishment in the Hereafter.

Like I have explained in my earlier post, ALL issues of morality are the sole preserve of God alone to decide on their permissibility and the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza is indeed a moral issue.

Therefore, those who choose to remain neutral and silent are essentially helping to support this heinous crime against humanity.

All this really goes to the gist of what I have been asking all throughout this thread → How do Christians decide on what is right or wrong and determine what is good or evil if they are NOT referring to the teachings of the Bible?

 

[Valke2]

God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael’s descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac’s in Canaan.

The Qur’an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.

According to the Qur’an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses.

“Say: ‘O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.’”(2) [Qur’an 3:26]

templemount.org/quranland.html

 

[hamba2han]

God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael’s descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac’s in Canaan.

The Qur’an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.

According to the Qur’an, no person, people or religious community can claim a permanent right of possession over any territory. The Earth belongs exclusively to God, and He is free to entrust sovereignty over land to whomever He likes for whatever time period that He chooses.

“Say: ‘O God, King of the kingdom (1), Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest; Thou endowest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: all the best is in Thy hand. Verily, Thou hast power over all things.’”(2) [Qur’an 3:26]

templemount.org/quranland.html

After being banished by the Romans for hundreds of years, the Jews were invited to return to Jerusalem during the time of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), the 2nd Caliph of Islam.

From Wikipedia:

Upon taking Jerusalem, Umar demonstrated the utmost respect for members of the other faiths living in the city. For the first time in 500 years since their expulsion from the Holy Land, Jews were allowed to practice their religion freely and live in the vicinity of Jerusalem. According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica, seventy Jewish families took up residence in the city. Umar also agreed to several pacts, called the Covenant of Omar, with the local Christian population, determining their rights and obligations under Muslim rule.

This certainly shows that the ONLY way to have lasting peace in the region is to return to the past i.e. the time when the Holy Land was ruled and administered by Muslims who strictly adhered to the true teachings of Islam.

 

[Valke2]

After being banished by the Romans for hundreds of years, the Jews were invited to return to Jerusalem during the time of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), the 2nd Caliph of Islam.

From Wikipedia:

Upon taking Jerusalem, Umar demonstrated the utmost respect for members of the other faiths living in the city. For the first time in 500 years since their expulsion from the Holy Land, Jews were allowed to practice their religion freely and live in the vicinity of Jerusalem. According to the Encyclopaedia Judaica, seventy Jewish families took up residence in the city. Umar also agreed to several pacts, called the Covenant of Omar, with the local Christian population, determining their rights and obligations under Muslim rule.

This certainly shows that the ONLY way to have lasting peace in the region is to return to the past i.e. the time when the Holy Land was ruled and administered by Muslims who strictly adhered to the true teachings of Islam.

I enjoy your posts. They are very revealing. So I’m going to reveal a truth to you and I hope you enjoy it. Israel is not going away. Iran can spend 50% of its wealth on rockets for Hamas and it will not make a difference. The sooner the palestinians come to grips with this, the better.

Here’s another revelation for you. Both Hamas and Israel wanted this war. Neither side was happy with the temporary cease fire. This is a war that both sides planned for. We will see who planned better.

 

[LutheranDK]

So, you wish to know what a proportional response would be?

I think that it is best that the Bible itself explain this to you:

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. … Exodus 21:23-25

If you pay particular attention to the part concerning “a life for a life”, then this would mean that if Palestinian rockets takes the lives of say 5 Israelis, then the Israeli response should be limited to only 5 Palestinian deaths.

Commands of the Lord are really NOT meant to be complicated and difficult to understand.

As has been pointed out, this is for civil disputes, not warfare.
I’d be willing to bet that if Israel had followed the commands of the Lord regarding war against their enemies, there would not be a single Arab left. Thank God (!!) that it hasn’t.

You, as a non-believer, should not talk about commandments of the Lord, which you so blatantly ignore.

You’re a troll, and appearently unable to conduct a serious conversation using reason, not propaganda. Stop wasting our time.

 

[LutheranDK]

What you are saying here is diametrically opposed to what is written in the Bible as can be seen in my earlier post.

Why should I believe you instead of the Bible?

You don’t believe in the Bible, because if you did, you’d be Christian, and not worshipping your own made-up “god”

 

[hamba2han]

As has been pointed out, this is for civil disputes, not warfare…

In today’s world, “a life for a life” would most certainly mean that the law does not consider it to be a civil dispute anymore but rather, the case needs to be tried in a higher criminal court.

And as for the issue of righteous war in the eyes of God, kindly refer to this earlier post of mine.

You don’t believe in the Bible, because if you did, you’d be Christian, and not worshipping your own made-up “god”

I would say that I have more faith in the truth of the Bible than most Christians on these here message boards.

 

[Booklover]

On a lighter note: Hey, Hamba! How about a tooth for a tooth?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/Muqtada-al-Sadr.jpg

Vickie

 

[De_Maria]

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the United States and it’s allies have fought in more wars, attacked and bombed more countries and killed and maimed a great deal more people in the name of championing “freedom and democracy” throughout it’s 232 years of existence than Muslims have done in the name of Islam over the past 14 centuries since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

That’s because you are fooled by Satan. Muslims have exterminated entire races of people. They have made rivers run red with blood even before modern weapons were invented.

and why does the United States support Israel unconditionally in virtually everything that it does?

It is not unconditional. It is just. Israel is ruled by law and by God’s Word. Islam is ruled by blood thirsty warlords who don’t care who they kill as long as they aren’t Muslims.

… From what I read, it is because Israel is supposedly a beacon of freedom and democracy in the Middle-East.

Whether you believe it or not, that is true. Islamic countries don’t know the meaning of the word freedom.

Just where in the Bible does it say that God allows the faithful to kill and maim people and to destroy their homes and towns in the name of “freedom and democracy”?

God permits His people to defend themselves from bloodthirsty murderers…

 

[hamba2han]

Those who support the killing and maiming of innocent men, women and children in order to preserve and safeguard their own “freedom and democracy” in this world will eventually discover that neither freedom nor democracy exists in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and there they will reside for all of eternity.

Don’t take my word for it, look it up in the Bible.

 

[LutheranDK]

In today’s world, “a life for a life” would most certainly mean that the law does not consider it to be a civil dispute anymore but rather, the case needs to be tried in a higher criminal court.

You constantly try to derail, by changing the subject, and I’m not going to let you.
You refer to the “Eye for an eye”-principle and claim that it should be the guiding principle of warfare (or maybe just the guiding principle in ISRAEL’S warfare?), and I debunk that by pointing out that those words were not spoken as a guideline to warfare, but as instructions in how to deal with civil disputes.

IF Israel used the guidelines of the Bible in waging war, it would not have this problem with terrorism, because there would be no Arabs left in Israel. Fact.

And as for the issue of righteous war in the eyes of God, kindly refer to this earlier post of mine.

I refuse to waste any of my time debunking that post. It’s bollocks from start to finish.

I would say that I have more faith in the truth of the Bible than most Christians on these here message boards.

And I say that it is not true. You reject the Bible, because you reject the One the Bible is all about: Yasua al-Masih.

 

[JonNC]

It is not unconditional. It is just. Israel is ruled by law and by God’s Word. Islam is ruled by blood thirsty warlords who don’t care who they kill as long as they aren’t Muslims.

Actually, some have done a pretty mean job of killing each other over the last few years and decades. Just ask the Kurds, and the current targets of UBL, Sadr, and the Taliban.

Jon

 

[emarc]

Why do you “answer” questions about God’s command in the Bible regarding “an eye for an eye” with totally unrelated questions of your own?

And as for Palestinians hiding in mosques and schools, I think that I have the solution for this i.e. just arm and train them how to use F-I6 fighters and Apache helicopters among other things that they might require, then I am pretty sure that they won’t be “hiding” anymore.

your solution, what’s your guarantee they’ll not go beyond boundaries? 9/11 again? 3,000 innocents massacred?
God bless.

 

[chrisse]

Those who support the killing and maiming of innocent men, women and children in order to preserve and safeguard their own “freedom and democracy” in this world will eventually discover that neither freedom nor democracy exists in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and there they will reside for all of eternity.

Don’t take my word for it, look it up in the Bible.

Oh, so you do NOT support Hamas?

Oops, made a mistake didn’t I? Missed you clarification. So to you, it’s okay to support the maiming of innocent men, women and children in order to preserve and safeguard Islam, not freedom and democracy. So you do support Hamas and their self-proclaimed right to offer their fellow muslims as sacrifice for the advancement of Islam.

The “innocent” women and children who are killed as a result of indoctrination to offer themselves as human shields on behalf of the Islamic agenda are not protected under International Law. Under International Law - Hamas is the culprit.

 

[De_Maria]

Those who support the killing and maiming of innocent men, women and children in order to preserve and safeguard their own “freedom and democracy” in this world will eventually discover that neither freedom nor democracy exists in the place where they are headed to in the Hereafter… and there they will reside for all of eternity.

Don’t take my word for it, look it up in the Bible.

It is Muslims who support the killing of innocent men, women and children. Remember the Twin Towers? That is only a small sample of Islamic methods.

 

[JonNC]

It is Muslims who support the killing of innocent men, women and children. Remember the Twin Towers? That is only a small sample of Islamic methods.

Yes, let’s name a couple of others:

Hamas fires rockets, not at Israeli military, but civilians
Hamas fires these rockets, not from military installations, but from the midst of their own civilian population, in order to use them as shields, and when they are killed, to use their deaths for public relations purposes - satanic cowards that they are.
They strap bombs on their own children to kill other civilians

Is this true of all Muslims? Of course not. Only the ones who perpetuate their ungodly “jihad” against the State of Israel, and indirectly, their own people.

Jon

 

[Valke2]

CAIRO, Egypt – A high-level Iranian cleric called for the shooting the Israeli foreign minister in a speech before worshippers.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_israel;_ylt=AsdMNrWxqAQcrPupiKqzhglvaA8F