Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[jmcrae]

Purgatory is the process of sanctification.

We cannot go to Heaven if we are not sanctified first.

Nowhere in the Bible are we promised that sanctification is either painless or instantaneous.

Purgatory isn’t a work of man attaining his or her own salvation; it’s the work of Christ on the Cross being made actual in the individual person, who joins himself or herself in a very real way to the Crucifixion.

We cannot be personally joined to the Resurrection, if we are not personally joined to the Crucifixion.

The Church is one and undivided; we can pray for members of the Church who are in Purgatory for the same reason that we can pray for Christians here on earth: because they are our brothers and sisters in the faith. Christ died to destroy death, and rose again to give us eternal life. Did He succeed, or fail? If He succeeded, then death is no longer a barrier, and the souls in Purgatory and in Heaven are as alive as we are - perhaps even more so, since they are closer to Christ than we are.

 

[jim1130]

Syele:

Romans 8:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This last one sums it up well, The wages of sin is not suffering and torture, it is DEATH. The Gift of God is eternal Life. It is a gift. Once you are dead it’s too late to accept that gift. You get one or the other death or life.

Priority7:

Who said anything about getting another chance after death? Scripture is clear that there is no second chance after death…Hebrews 9:27.
That’s why Purgatory is not a “second chance”, but a perfecting of our one and only chance…an ending of our sanctification. As you said, we would be instantly cleansed. This may be true, since we would be outside of time and therefore not subject anymore to the clock, so to speak, but that does not take away the fact that the cleansing might hurt…think about it…your soul has been used to this defect called a sin nature since birth. Now that it’s on it’s way to Heaven, it’s saying goodbye to that sin nature and the effects it has brought upon it in it’s earthly life. It hurts to say goodbye, but it’s for the better for in Heaven all is made right. Purgatory is for the saved only. Purgatory is the beginning of Heaven, not an alternative to it.
You know, I believe many non-catholic christians in some way or another believe in Purgatory. They just don’t call it that because to them it’s this “second chance” or us “paying for our sins which takes away from the Sacrifice on the Cross”. The name itself seems taboo. But we all agree that as we go to Heaven, God will remove our sin nature and all it’s effects as we enter into glory. This removal is Purgatory. It’s really not that complicated to see that. Only our set prejudices would get in the way of seeing the logic behind that, and prejudice can be born of pride, and pride is the Devil’s sin. It was the sin that started it all…so be careful…desire to seek truth for truth’s sake, not for your own…
Blessings,
P7

In Protestantism, one is never truly cleansed, but covered in the cloak of righteousness. That is what Luther and Calvin claimed, right? Therefore, if a person is never truly clean, but merely covered and then tries to enter Heaven then that person would be repulsed because sin/uncleanliness cannot enter Heaven and be before God, right? So for the Protestant, Purgatory should make perfect sense. A person dies, who was never truly clean to begin with, and the cloak is shed to reveal the sin, and then through the process of Purgatory (it is a process, not a place) comes the final cleansing purification that allows the soul to enter Heaven.

 

[Pryority7]

In Protestantism, one is never truly cleansed, but covered in the cloak of righteousness. That is what Luther and Calvin claimed, right? Therefore, if a person is never truly clean, but merely covered and then tries to enter Heaven then that person would be repulsed because sin/uncleanliness cannot enter Heaven and be before God, right? So for the Protestant, Purgatory should make perfect sense. A person dies, who was never truly clean to begin with, and the cloak is shed to reveal the sin, and then through the process of Purgatory (it is a process, not a place) comes the final cleansing purification that allows the soul to enter Heaven.

Yep…it’s either that, or we enter Heave as a heap of horse dung covered in vanilla frosting…

 

[jim1130]

jim1130:

In Protestantism, one is never truly cleansed, but covered in the cloak of righteousness. That is what Luther and Calvin claimed, right? Therefore, if a person is never truly clean, but merely covered and then tries to enter Heaven then that person would be repulsed because sin/uncleanliness cannot enter Heaven and be before God, right? So for the Protestant, Purgatory should make perfect sense. A person dies, who was never truly clean to begin with, and the cloak is shed to reveal the sin, and then through the process of Purgatory (it is a process, not a place) comes the final cleansing purification that allows the soul to enter Heaven.

Priority7:

either that, or we enter Heave as a heap of horse dung covered in vanilla frosting…

With a cherry on top? I know the argument is that with the new found non-denominational fundamentalist evangelist the position is we are washed clean by Christ’s blood from the Cross and are saved, thereby entering heaven pure, but all they are trying to do is further distance themselves from Luther and Calvin, the two people whom they align themselves more closely than they care to admit. I would like to meet these people who are “saved” and then never ever commit another sin. Ever. Never. Not one.

 

[apophasis]

Not at all. Purgatory exists.

Heb 1:3b “When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”

Just like Christ exists in the Eucharist

1 Cor. 11:24 "…and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
**
1 Cor. 11:25** "In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.”

Just like Christ works through the priest to forgive sins

**Acts 10:43 **“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

**Acts 13:38 **"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
**
Col. 1:14** "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”

Protestants really should be called Contrarians.

Only those who teach contrary to the revealed, written Word of God. Hence, such a label would not be restricted to “Protestants” only, would it?

 

[jim1130]

Heb 1:3b "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"1 Cor. 11:24 "…and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
**
1 Cor. 11:25** "In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.”**Acts 10:43 **“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

**Acts 13:38 **"Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
**
Col. 1:14** "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake."Only those who teach contrary to the revealed, written Word of God. Hence, such a label would not be restricted to “Protestants” only, would it?

You’re not part of the original Church founded by Jesus Christ (Catholic Church) than you are a Protestant. Protestants remind me of those in Raiders of the Lost Ark who only have the knowledge from one side of the coin, not both. If you do not know what I am talking about then rent the movie.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

Just to let you “unbelievers of Purgatory” know, you can’t unbelieve Purgatory away.
So it is here to stay whether you believe or not.

You can’t believe it into existence, either. It’s a matter of divine revelation, and there just isn’t any - none, zilch, nada.

You’re right about that! The Pope didn’t believe it into existance. God did!

apophasis:

AlegreFe:

But don’t worry, I will be praying for all of your souls when you get there

Prayers should address reality.

Purgatory is a reality.

Ask God if it is real. I’m serious. Have your heart and mind wide open then pray to Him in total silence. Ask Him to let you know, to give you a sign, or something. I’m not kidding… ask Him. Then be on the lookout. You might not get your answer right away. But maybe one day you’ll be going 'bout your business and something will happen; or you’ll see something; or you’ll hear something; or someone will tell you something that might mean something to you. Who knows how God will answer you, but He will tell you that it does exist! I guarentee! :yup:
Hopefully He won’t tell you at the last minute though.

Hey, I’ll see you there, if we can’t make it straight to Heaven.
Remember that I prayed for you, then pray for me too pleeeease!

 

[AlegreFe]

This is a silly statement, indeed. If RC’ism finally stated that it is dropping its doctrine of purgatory based on the lack of divine revelation, then we’d certainly be in agreement (on that issue).

Divine Revelation already happened. Do you know of a new Divine Revelation that will happen in the future? The Church already received her Full Deposit of Faith.

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and always, the Church can never drop any of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Word of God is not only in written form. The Word was preached when the Church first started back with Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus didn’t pass out bibles and tell everyone to start memorizing verses so that they could get some gold little sticker stars on a chart. The disciples preached the Word of God.
The Church came before the Bible ever did.

Purgatory is a reality whether you believe it or not.

I’m still praying.

 

[Pryority7]

Divine Revelation already happened. Do you know of a new Divine Revelation that will happen in the future? The Church already received her Full Deposit of Faith.

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and always, the Church can never drop any of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Word of God is not only in written form. The Word was preached when the Church first started back with Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus didn’t pass out bibles and tell everyone to start memorizing verses so that they could get some gold little sticker stars on a chart. The disciples preached the Word of God.
The Church came before the Bible ever did.

Purgatory is a reality whether you believe it or not.

I’m still praying.

I’ll be praying for him too. I understand what apo feels because I used to agree with him… a long time ago. Then I studied, I learned and I now see the truth for what it is and how it makes sense and how it by no means take away from the sacrifice of the cross. Yep…I understand him, but I no longer agree with him. I’ll pray for him too…
P7

 

[apophasis]

You’re right about that! The Pope didn’t believe it into existance. God did!

God believed it into existence? That’s a new one.

Purgatory is a reality.

As real as Narnia.

Ask God if it is real. I’m serious. Have your heart and mind wide open then pray to Him in total silence. Ask Him to let you know, to give you a sign, or something. I’m not kidding… ask Him. Then be on the lookout. You might not get your answer right away. But maybe one day you’ll be going 'bout your business and something will happen; or you’ll see something; or you’ll hear something; or someone will tell you something that might mean something to you. Who knows how God will answer you, but He will tell you that it does exist! I guarentee! :yup:
Hopefully He won’t tell you at the last minute though.

Hey, I’ll see you there, if we can’t make it straight to Heaven.
Remember that I prayed for you, then pray for me too pleeeease!

Col. 2:18 "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on {visions} he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,"You’ll NEVER see me in Purgatory. Why? Because 2000 years ago my Lord made purification of my sins through His sacrificial work on the cross (Heb. 1:3), and He now sits at the right hand of the Majesty on High functioning as my High Priest (“Intercessor”) and “Advocate” before my Father (1 Jn. 2:1). And the Apostle Paul, who got his teaching concerning the faith directly from the Lord, taught long before the notion of Purgatory was introduced into the church by men that to be absent from the body is to be at HOME with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).

Yes, the only way you’ll ever get a so-called “confirmation” on “Purgatory” is through some mystical means, not through the written Word of God. Which is the difference between my faith and yours.

As I said before, sweetheart, don’t waste prayers on things that are not real. There’s plenty of terrifying reality in this world on which to spend your prayer time.

 

[jim1130]

"AlegreFe:

Divine Revelation already happened. Do you know of a new Divine Revelation that will happen in the future? The Church already received her Full Deposit of Faith.

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and always, the Church can never drop any of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Word of God is not only in written form. The Word was preached when the Church first started back with Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus didn’t pass out bibles and tell everyone to start memorizing verses so that they could get some gold little sticker stars on a chart. The disciples preached the Word of God.
The Church came before the Bible ever did.

Purgatory is a reality whether you believe it or not.

I’m still praying.

I’ll be praying for him too. I understand what apo feels because I used to agree with him… a long time ago. Then I studied, I learned and I now see the truth for what it is and how it makes sense and how it by no means take away from the sacrifice of the cross. Yep…I understand him, but I no longer agree with him. I’ll pray for him too…
P7

Why do non-Catholics think they are clever and insightful when they try to use the Bible against the Catholic Church? Who was the source for this original deposit of faith? With whom did the Holy Spirit work to create the Bible these people try to use against us? Granted, Catholics may not plug in Bible verses the way Lily Tomlin’s operator character on “Laugh In” plugged in phone lines (which is what I think Bible-believing non-Catholics do), but if we had been taught that the way to Heaven was to memorize Bible verses so we could pass the entrance exam upon arriving at the pearly gates then I am sure that would have been the emphasis taught. Instead, we were taught Biblical context, the importance of authoritative interpretation, and guidance of Tradition, not isolated verses to fit the “flavor of the moment” defense mentality. The Catholic Church that came before the Bible is supported, endorsed, reinforced, whatever word you wish to apply, by the Bible, and these religious splinter groups, whose origin goes back to 1517, may think that they mean well, but are actually poisonous.

 

[jim1130]

As I said before, sweetheart, don’t waste prayers on things that are not real. There’s plenty of terrifying reality in this world on which to spend your prayer time.

Yes, and much of the terrifying reality is associated with non-Catholics, like you, who THINK they know, who THINK they understand, who THINK they are the authority when they are merely fooling themselves. You try to use the Bible against the Catholic Church? With whom did the Holy Spirit work to provide the Bible you try to use against the Church created and instituted by Christ? By what divine revelation have YOU been entrusted with the interpretative truth? Throw out all the Bible verses that you want, you cannot use the Bible disprove the Catholic Church, Purgatory, Real Presence, etc. You’ve been brainwashed by mere mortals and your words and interpretations are not Christ-driven, but man-driven.

 

[MariaG]

The passage is an analogy, comparing God’s judgement of our lives and works to a building that is burning. Some building materials will withstand fire, others will not. In the same way some of our works will be recognized and rewarded in Heaven and others will not. Works we do that are not for the glory of God will not be rewarded in heaven. It dosn’t say WE are the building and will be burned up.

So you do not believe there will be any pain involved in being purified as if through fire?

The Catholic church does not assert that “we” personally will be burned up. If it is just our works that are burned, that still can be painful to watch it happen.

From CA Library The Roots of Purgatory
Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

Also from The Roots of Purgatory

Gregory of Nyssa

“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (*Sermon on the Dead *[A.D. 382]).

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This last one sums it up well, The wages of sin is not suffering and torture, it is DEATH. The Gift of God is eternal Life. It is a gift. Once you are dead it’s too late to accept that gift. You get one or the other death or life.

Again, As already stated, but obviously worth stating again, purgatory is NOT a second chance at “accepting Christ into your heart”. It is not a second chance at repentance of sin that leads to death. Christ must already be living in your heart for a person to experience the fire that purifies, the fire that Catholics have named purgatory.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Syele]

So you do not believe there will be any pain involved in being purified as if through fire?

The Catholic church does not assert that “we” personally will be burned up. If it is just our works that are burned, that still can be painful to watch it happen.

I truly believe that when faced with God Himself, as His follower, I will be *glad *the works that were selfish and not for Him will be burned up.

I have experienced God’s purifying in one important area of my life. It was like a huge weight was lifted from me and I was never interested in p[ersuing that sort of unhealthy desire again. Living for God is **freedom not pain and suffering.Yes, sometimes, We don’t want to let go of our strongholds, and sometimes people make us suffer for what we believe. But when we are surrendered to God, losing those things is a relief, not painful. If we are not surrendered to God, I’d say we aren’t saved and wouldn’t qualify for “purgatory” anyhow. I don’t see why He’d change tactics just because I die.

 

[Syele]

Again, As already stated, but obviously worth stating again, purgatory is NOT a second chance at “accepting Christ into your heart”. It is not a second chance at repentance of sin that leads to death. Christ must already be living in your heart for a person to experience the fire that purifies, the fire that Catholics have named purgatory.

God Bless,
Maria

That is the very reason I think it *won’t *be suffering.

 

[MariaG]

I am glad to see you post scripture on this. It is so much better than “I say it exists, you say it doesn’t” kind of exchange

Heb 1:3b “When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”

Let’s start with this one. Where exactly does this verse contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory?

Christ is outside of time. How can Christ’s sacrifice be good for my sins today? Because Christ’s sacrifice is not limited to time. Christ’s sacrifice is outside of time. God is outside of time.

So you would need to be more specific on this verse as to why this contradicts the Catholic teaching on purgatory.

Unfortunately, I need to go, otherwise I would discuss each verse. But maybe when I/you come back and explain why this verse contradicts, we can go into each one individually?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

That is the very reason I think it *won’t *be suffering.

So you believe you will be purified as if through fire but that won’t hurt?

Why the inspired words relating sanctification to something like fire?

Fire burns. Fire purifies. It is intense. Even if it is just our works being burned up, you do not think that would be painful to watch?

God Bless,
Maria

ps read the next one also before responding. I won’t delete this one just in case you have already read it, but I missed the post of yours right before this one.

 

[MariaG]

I truly believe that when faced with God Himself, as His follower, I will be *glad *the works that were selfish and not for Him will be burned up.

I have experienced God’s purifying in one important area of my life. It was like a huge weight was lifted from me and I was never interested in p[ersuing that sort of unhealthy desire again. Living for God is **freedom

not pain and suffering.Yes, sometimes, We don’t want to let go of our strongholds, and sometimes people make us suffer for what we believe. But when we are surrendered to God, losing those things is a relief, not painful. If we are not surrendered to God, I’d say we aren’t saved and wouldn’t qualify for “purgatory” anyhow. I don’t see why He’d change tactics just because I die.

Of course we will be glad when it is burned up! I completely agree, and so does the Catholic Church.

But you are not claiming that the process of sanctification when living is free from the pain of growth are you?

Sometimes it takes hard lessons that can be painful when we learn and grow in the Lord. We are happy for this but it can still be painful when we go through it.

Again, you are not claiming that it cannot be a painful process as we live, and grow in the knowledge of the Lord as we are sanctified by Him are you?

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

Can I ask a silly question? Why are we arguing over this? If Purgatory exists or is a figment of someones imagination is irrelevant as arguing for or against the existence of God. There has to be a better way than have Christians (catholic and Catholic) reverting to Bible verse tyraides and personal insults.

There seems to be a common understanding between the two points of view. We die and go somewhere, and some form of purification/restoration/healing takes place. Some Catholics think Purgatory is tantamount to extreme suffering just short of eternal damnation while others don’t go so far. I would put myself in the latter. We don’t know how long it takes or how we will get from point a to point b.

I do not believe Purgatory is a place we pay for our sins. Christ did that on the cross. The bottom line for me is God can bring us home any way he chooses, and we are not privied to the details.

.