Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[MrS]

Isaiah 1:17-19
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

18 “Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;

How does this “fit” in with the idea of purgatory? I am not a Catholic (I am being drawn to the RCC) and only just beginning to learn these things. I was of the understanding that once we accepted the sacrifice of Christ, that our sins are wiped clean. Now wouldn’t it stand to be reasonable that as we sin (which we all know we do even after salvation) and we repent of those sins daily, that there wouldn’t be any need for further purification after death?

if I may offer an oftused analogy…

The teenager is playing baseball… and he throws the ball, it hits and breaks the neighbor’s window.

After knocking on the door, telling the neighbor that he is truly sorry for breaking the window, and receiving the neighbor’s heartfelt forgiveness…

He still has to replace/pay for the window.

Yes, Jesus forgives us for our sins…awesome. But there is a temporal punishment attached to the sin… repayment if you will for the material attachment we all have (in various degrees) for the world, the flesh and the devil.

His death and ressurection appeased the Father… it did not make us perfect and holy, and “clean” enough to enter heaven. We share in His Life and Hid Death… and we must pick up our crosses as He picked up His.

Some, like a Mother Theresa for instance, spend a lifetime rejecting the world the flesh and devil in lieu of love of one another. Needless to say, she had very little attachment to material things. And needless to say her entry to heaven after death was/is/will be quicker than mine.

At the end of time, only heaven and hell will exist. There will be no longer a need for purgation for “incoming souls” They will be purged, made clean after death, outside of the restrictions of time.

Repentance is very important… you are right on track. We must continually ask for forgiveness after admitting to our sins. God’s gives us a special grace in the Sacrament of confession not only to forgive but to be strenghened against sin. The temporal punishment, however, must be rendered.

In the early days of the Church, because of the long time between visits of the ministerial priests, the penances were often very harsh and public.

IMHO, I think the penances of today are quite weak and often the “punishment does not fit the crime”. On the other hand, true repentance can cause the sinner pain and remorse in what he/she has done to the Lord… perhaps a truly worse punishment.

 

[BabyDoll4]

If I die tonight, and I have accepted Christ’s sacrifice, but yet I still have “unresolved sins” lets say. Is there more that I must do in order to get into heaven? But then, once the physicial body is gone, there really is nothing that you can actually “do”. Are we still in a state of being able to learn, or do we rely on those who are praying for us? I guess what I am asking is what is going to “get me out” of purgatory?

hmmm… I really need to go to a class… so many things to learn!!!

 

[MrS]

If I die tonight, and I have accepted Christ’s sacrifice, but yet I still have “unresolved sins” lets say. Is there more that I must do in order to get into heaven? But then, once the physicial body is gone, there really is nothing that you can actually “do”. Are we still in a state of being able to learn, or do we rely on those who are praying for us? I guess what I am asking is what is going to “get me out” of purgatory?

hmmm… I really need to go to a class… so many things to learn!!!

Hopefully, one of the things you will “learn” is that the Catholic love for what purgatory means for us (God’s mercy) is often rejected by most protestants.

However, they will love it when they get there, knowing they cannot get to heaven unclean.

 

[BabyDoll4]

Hopefully, one of the things you will “learn” is that the Catholic love for what purgatory means for us (God’s mercy) is often rejected by most protestants.

However, they will love it when they get there, knowing they cannot get to heaven unclean.

Okay, I undersdand that no sin is allowed in heaven. (that’s a no brainer) What cleanses us as we are in purgatory? God’s mercy? But we have that at all times.

 

[shawn34_a]

Absolutely. Yes I agree

But what of those sins we do not repent? What about the sins I forget to repent for?

What about the good Christian soldier who lives a good life but just happened to commit a mortal sin seconds before the bullet that kills him arrives, for which he has not had time to reflect or repent? Is this otherwise good soul condemned to hell for all eternity?

I think not. But we know ‘nothing defiled can enter heaven’, therefore there must be some process of cleansing beyond this life.

St Paul puts it nicely when he says that '‘For each man’s work will be tested by fire. If his work stands, he will be reqarded but it it burns, he will have to bear the loss; yet he will escape with his life’. 1 Cor ch 3: 14-15.

Now what St Paul is saying is that a good person’s work will be proven as good but someone not so good, their work will burn but they will survive, yet be purged by fire.

The CC has long put a name to that process St Paul describes, she has called it Purgatory.

In Revelations it says that we will all be judged according to our deeds. 1 Cor 3:14-15 speaks of the same thing. Christ will be the judge according to the Father’s will. However the length of purgatory will be different for each person. Consistently throughtout the Bible we will be raised up at either the 1st or 2nd rapture. The first will occur at the last (7th) trump(et). The second will occur on judgement day at the end of the millenium.

 

[shawn34_a]

Hopefully, one of the things you will “learn” is that the Catholic love for what purgatory means for us (God’s mercy) is often rejected by most protestants.

However, they will love it when they get there, knowing they cannot get to heaven unclean.

It’s unfortunate that there’s not much evidence for supporting the theory of rapture. In the end does it really matter? For those of us that sleep in Christ, none will waken until his return. And at the last (7th) trump(et) we will be changed in the twinkle of an eye and called up for the marriage supper with Christ just before Armagedon.

 

[MrS]

Okay, I undersdand that no sin is allowed in heaven. (that’s a no brainer) What cleanses us as we are in purgatory? God’s mercy? But we have that at all times.

Suffering… as by fire… also, having seen God, and now being temporarily deprived of that awesome sight, we would be greatly distressed .

Scripture tells us that like precious metals, we will be refined, as by fire to remove all attachments to material, worldly things… thus “cleansed” to enter heaven. It really is difficult to try to explain without using things we know (fire, gold, pure etc) to relate to.

You might use this site… home page… to open the section on the Tracts… or search (top left corner) the home page using the word purgatory.

 

[shawn34_a]

In Revelations it says that we will all be judged according to our deeds. 1 Cor 3:14-15 speaks of the same thing. Christ will be the judge according to the Father’s will. However the length of purgatory will be different for each person. Consistently throughtout the Bible we will be raised up at either the 1st or 2nd rapture. The first will occur at the last (7th) trump(et). The second will occur on judgement day at the end of the millenium.

All right now, don’t shoot me. Lets look at this from a different perspective.
1 Corithians 3:12-16
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13(W)each man’s work will become evident; for (X)the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will (Y)receive a reward.
15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet (Z)so as through fire.
16(AA)Do you not know that (AB)you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Now lets look at Rev 22:12

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done,” which definitely describe a future judgment according to man’s works.

In 1 Corithians Explained
3:12 the materials represent our works/deeds
3:13 Our works will become known and judge on that final day. The fire is the actual judgement of the works/deeds. The materials that are burned up were not Christ like. Those materials that are refined by the fire, not burned up, are Christ’s works.
3:14 If any works survived the judgement, he’ll be saved and inherit the riches of the kingdom of God worthy of the works we performed.
3:15 If none of the works survive the fire, he’ll be saved, but his riches will be little.

In the teaching of both Revelations and Corithians, we have the thing. We will first be judged on our belief. If we don’t believe in Christ, off to the the Lake of Fire. If we believe in Christ, we’ll then be judged by our works/deeds.
When we die we will be judged according to our works at the final judgement by Jesus according to the Fathers will. I think we are all in agreement there. Based on other teachings though, I think this application makes much more sense then purgatory.
Think about this. This is Jewish thinking. Witnesses are called before truth can be established. In court jurisprudence, the presence of a witness to something is considered good evidence but the presence of two witnesses is conclusive. Why the Trinity? For each form of God, there are two other that can atest for the third. Two witnesses in Revelations. The same theology applies to Biblical teaching. I can’t think of a particular instance where one piece of scriptural teaching cannot be substantiated by another. If 1 Cor 3:12-16 referred to purgatory, where’s the support. However, if it refers to the judgement of our deeds in the end time, which I believe it does, we have Rev 22:12 which mirrors it.
So that leaves the question of how are we sanctified if there is not purgatory.

1 Corithians 15:25 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

Here we’re changed from corruptible to incorruptible at the second coming of Christ. We’ll be (believers who name is written in the book of life) sanctified immediately and take on immortality so we can go and fight at Armagedon.

It certainly can make sense, especially since nothing is taken out of context or far fetched.

Let me know what you’ll think!

 

[Bishopite]

MrS;1829751]How true… and I have some “doops” in my own family. Two Baptist sons who bought into the “easy-believism” during my 25 years outside of the Church.

I realized hours after making that post that I mispelled “dooped” instead of duped…oops!

I will have to answer for what has happened to them… I will have to pay that price…not Jesus.

My own 8 year old grandson informed me he just got “saved”. It made his dad happy, so it must be true .

However, God is good… the dad is studying to preach… and I believe that in God’s time, he will start to see the lies and misconceptions upon which he builds his faith.

Well, we’ve all made mistakes in the past…hindesite is 2020. Don’t ever give up hope nor praying for them, I was very anti-Catholic many years ago, and even helped bring others out of the Catholic church but the Lord showed me the truth through circumstances I would have never guessed would happen. If your son is studying to preach that could very well be a good thing, if he is studying theology. Too many Protestants today lack (yes so do Catholics) the theological study that brings them deeper into a knowledge of Scripture,salvific Christian history and the church fathers, all of which points to Catholicism if one is objectively honest with the truth.

Perhaps you will be able to ask him questions, in a nice way of course, that would challenge his beliefs against other Protestants and Catholicism if he is open to dialogue

 

[tptram]

Too many keep saying that Purgatory denies Christ sacrifice, but nothing could be further from the Truth. Purgatory is Christ giving us the opportunity to participate in His sufferings so as to achieve holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Amen

 

[AlegreFe]

It is impossible for anyone to fully repent of every sin.

Do you mean that we don’t remember every sin we’ve committed and therefore can’t repent of those we can’t remember? or do you mean that even though we know our sins we cannot repent of all those sins of which we are aware?

believers:

However, because I have faith in what Jesus has done on the cross, my iniquites are forgiven and my sins covered.

(emphasis added)

So your sins are still there but just covered?

believers:

Purgatory can’t exist if you truly understand what Jesus has done on the cross.

I fully know why Jesus died for me. That does not mean that Purgatory does not exist. Purgatory is not a permanent state like Hell is. Purgatory is just being purified before entering Heaven.

believers:

I hope you consider this possibility, if you don’t believe that Jesus paid our debt in full with His own blood

Jesus died for our sins but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to repent of our sins.

I would like to know, what is your definition of “repent” or better put, “to repent?”

believers:

then you may not be covered by the blood.

I would not want to just be covered by His blood.

When I was baptized, the stain of original sin was not just covered, it was washed clean.

When I go to Confession to be reconciled with God, my sins are not covered, they are washed clean. I receive Sanctifying Grace after I confess my sins. After that I go to receive Jesus in Holy Communion. I am then in a State of Grace.

When do you receive Sanctifying Grace from God? Do you have the guarentee that you will be fully Sanctified at the moment you die?

believers:

You MUST have faith in Jesus.

I do have faith in Jesus. I must have faith in all that Jesus has said through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I follow His command to EAT His Flesh and Drink His Blood. That is the only way that I will have LIFE in me. Since Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life and I receive Him, then I have Life in me just as Jesus said in John 6:51, 54 and others.

 

[AlegreFe]

Too many keep saying that Purgatory denies Christ sacrifice, but nothing could be further from the Truth. Purgatory is Christ giving us the opportunity to participate in His sufferings so as to achieve holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

I agree!

I also believe that we start our sanctification while alive on earth. God is great to allow us to unite our sufferings to the sufferings of Jesus!

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for
your sake, and in my flesh I complete
what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions
for the sake of his body, that is, the
church, Col 1:24

 

[AlegreFe]

But this is the point of Difference. Protestants believe that were already Justified in the eyes of God at the time we became saved. If you already have something, Why get it again?

So this tells me that you believe in OSAS. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Shakehead.gif

 

[AlegreFe]

It’s unfortunate that there’s not much evidence for supporting the theory of rapture.

The “rapture” is NOT true. Catholics do NOT believe in the “rapture.”

Here is a review by Carl E. Olson.
He reviews a book called The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen, Ph.D.

Catholics and the Rapture CDs

Five Myths About the Rapture by Carl Olson.

I Used to Believe in the Rapture, And All I Got Was This Stupid T-Shirt
by Carl E. Olson
… I would sometimes try to warn my Catholic friends about
being members of the Whore of Babylon, described in vivid
detail in the Book of Revelation. They usually ignored my
gloom-and-doom commentary and I learned to cope with the
sad fact that they were likely damned to eternal flames for
worshipping Mary, ignoring the Bible, and supporting that
apostate, bloody institution called the Roman Catholic
Church. In the meantime, we played basketball together and
listened to Foreigner cassettes-yes, actual tape cassettes.

Today I am a member of that same oft-maligned and
constantly misunderstood Catholic Church. It’s a long story,
but part of it involved a lengthy study of this belief called the
Rapture: Where did it come from? Is it biblical? Is it true? I’ve
become somewhat devoted-my wife would use the
word, “obsessed” to exposing the belief in the so-
called “Rapture” for what it is: A flawed and misleading
concept that is of recent origin, unbiblical, and full of
theological holes. I am convinced, based on experience and
study, that Fundamentalist Protestantism cannot be really
understood correctly without understanding Fundamentalist
end times beliefs. The belief in a “pretrib Rapture,” the secret,
silent removal of true Christians from earth prior to seven
years of tribulation, is not just a curiosity or a slightly different
take on eschatology (the study of “last things”).

There are even many Protestants who don’t believe in the “rapture.”

shawn34_a:

In the end does it really matter?

Yes

shawn34_a:

For those of us that sleep in Christ, none will waken until his return. And at the last (7th) trump(et) we will be changed in the twinkle of an eye and called up for the marriage supper with Christ just before Armagedon.

:whacky:

 

[MrS]

I realized hours after making that post that I mispelled “dooped” instead of duped…oops!

Well, we’ve all made mistakes in the past…hindesite is 2020. Don’t ever give up hope nor praying for them, I was very anti-Catholic many years ago, and even helped bring others out of the Catholic church but the Lord showed me the truth through circumstances I would have never guessed would happen. If your son is studying to preach that could very well be a good thing, if he is studying theology. Too many Protestants today lack (yes so do Catholics) the theological study that brings them deeper into a knowledge of Scripture,salvific Christian history and the church fathers, all of which points to Catholicism if one is objectively honest with the truth.

Perhaps you will be able to ask him questions, in a nice way of course, that would challenge his beliefs against other Protestants and Catholicism if he is open to dialogue

now a guud spelar wood no that it is “uups”

To make a long story short, about 1990 two young men, 20 and 21, came to my house… they were Baptists looking to save Catholics. They were clear that Catholics were going to hell, period. With floppy bible in hand, they offered me easy salvation… and stressed out my non-Catholic wife.

At the time I only knew they were so wrong… but not why. Guess it was all those years of mom’s Masses and rosaries.

At the time I did not even have a Bible, and had been away from the Church since my college years. Anyway, they ended up blowing on the few last sparks of real life in me.

I needed some answers so I could refute what I knew was goofy (or guufy ).

But I am actually grateful to those two men. They returned often to “argue” the faith… also upsetting to my wife. And as the older of two began his own business, I would go on the weekends to help him… and we would talk “Romans” for hours and hours.

So today, I am back in the Church with my Catholic-convert wife… lots of Bibles, a 1500+ book(buuk) library, and a realization that there is so much more to learn and do… and the grey hairs remind me of the limited time I have left.

As for the two young men, grown now with families of their own… they are still Baptist and love the Lord in their lives… well we still talk often, and see each other when we can … afterall, they are my second and third sons.

We certainly don’t argue any more… and I don’t often “discuss” Romans with John… He is attending a “Bible College” part time and is very active in his Baptist church. revivalmidwest.org/midwestbible.asp which is very suspect (IMHO), but I think it is all part of God’s plan. If it is true, that when one really delves into Scripture, they cannot help but become Catholic… that will happen to John.

Mike and I , on the other hand, do have more discussions (although lately we have been a bit lax). He is more open to baptism, purgatory, Mary etc… but, understandable, is in a difficult position with a Baptist wife and family.

Thank God that God is God.

I will persevere… and rely on my sense of humor (as other posters may attest to) to replace some of the pain.

 

[BabyDoll4]

Suffering… as by fire… also, having seen God, and now being temporarily deprived of that awesome sight, we would be greatly distressed .

Scripture tells us that like precious metals, we will be refined, as by fire to remove all attachments to material, worldly things… thus “cleansed” to enter heaven. It really is difficult to try to explain without using things we know (fire, gold, pure etc) to relate to.

That puts a whole new light on things for me. <— (that’s me, my eyes have been opened a little more) I have heard this before many times growing up in the church, and I have associated it with life after death. However, after reading this rather lengthy thread, it is more understandable because indeed no unclean thing will enter heaven. :getholy: <— (that’s the light clickin’ on upstairs hehehe )

 

[MrS]

That puts a whole new light on things for me. <— (that’s me, my eyes have been opened a little more) I have heard this before many times growing up in the church, and I have associated it with life after death. However, after reading this rather lengthy thread, it is more understandable because indeed no unclean thing will enter heaven. :getholy: <— (that’s the light clickin’ on upstairs hehehe )

God is good… give all the credit to Him as you continue your walk with the Lord.

.

 

[shawn34_a]

The “rapture” is NOT true. Catholics do NOT believe in the “rapture.”

There are even many Protestants who don’t believe in the “rapture.”

Yes

:whacky:

I have not met a Catholic yet that did not believe in the Rapture theory. The problem is that they think they would saved from the 3 1/2 year great tribulation (satan’s wrath). That is further from the truth. What we will be saved from is God’s wrath (spilling out of the bowels). The bible is specifically clear in various scripture passages of a rapture. This is when the 2nd coming of Christ occurs, the 1st resurrection. The day is referred to in various ways: 1. When Jesus comes as a thief, 2. It’s the day he “Gathers them together,” and 3. We’re called up in the clouds

A big note is that there is two raptures or resurrections. The first occurs after the great tribulation. The second occurs at judgement day.

1st Rapture
1 Corithians 15:50-54
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”£

1 Thess 4:15-18
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thess 2:1
1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of £Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of £sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits £as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

** This passage gives us a greater understanding when the rapture (calling up to the Lord) occurs. First there’s the great falling away. The son of perdition (antichrist) is revealed, he’ll stand in the rebuilt (3rd) temple, and claim to be God. This occurs (based on the book of Daniel and Revelations), half way through Daniels 70th week (1 day = 1year, spelled out in Daniel also). Animal sacrifices will be halted for there will be no need if you think he’s the Messiah. And there will be great tribulation as never been seen before. Matthew 24, Revelations, Daniel, Mark, Luke, and even in some of the letters of the Saints. All these things come to past before the rapture.

Revelations 16:15-16
15“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, £Armageddon.

** more to come

 

[shawn34_a]

The “rapture” is NOT true. Catholics do NOT believe in the “rapture.”

There are even many Protestants who don’t believe in the “rapture.”

Yes

:whacky:

Matthew 24:29-35, Mark 13:24-33, Luke 21:20-36 - (parallel passages)
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that £it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

** Here Jesus loves us so much, he tells us what to look for!

Revalations 14:14-20
14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a gol
den crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come £for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlong**s.

** 10 furlongs = 1 mile. The distance from Armagedon (plains of Magito) to Jerusalem = 160 miles. Coincidence. Don’t think so.

Revelations 20:4-6 (Those who did not receive the mark of the beast during the great tribulation)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Matthew 13:24-43 (I started with verse 37 in the paste for it explains all 3 parables)
37 “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

I don’t think the bible can be any more clear. What is even more astounding is that even at the last moment, God being so loving, still gives us a chance to repent if we keep watch.

Revelations 16:15-16 (again)
15“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon

 

[Bishopite]

now a guud spelar wood no that it is “uups”

To make a long story short, about 1990 two young men, 20 and 21, came to my house… they were Baptists looking to save Catholics. They were clear that Catholics were going to hell, period. With floppy bible in hand, they offered me easy salvation… and stressed out my non-Catholic wife.

At the time I only knew they were so wrong… but not why. Guess it was all those years of mom’s Masses and rosaries.

At the time I did not even have a Bible, and had been away from the Church since my college years. Anyway, they ended up blowing on the few last sparks of real life in me.

I needed some answers so I could refute what I knew was goofy (or guufy ).

But I am actually grateful to those two men. They returned often to “argue” the faith… also upsetting to my wife. And as the older of two began his own business, I would go on the weekends to help him… and we would talk “Romans” for hours and hours.

So today, I am back in the Church with my Catholic-convert wife… lots of Bibles, a 1500+ book(buuk) library, and a realization that there is so much more to learn and do… and the grey hairs remind me of the limited time I have left.

As for the two young men, grown now with families of their own… they are still Baptist and love the Lord in their lives… well we still talk often, and see each other when we can … afterall, they are my second and third sons.

We certainly don’t argue any more… and I don’t often “discuss” Romans with John… He is attending a “Bible College” part time and is very active in his Baptist church. revivalmidwest.org/midwestbible.asp which is very suspect (IMHO), but I think it is all part of God’s plan. If it is true, that when one really delves into Scripture, they cannot help but become Catholic… that will happen to John.

Mike and I , on the other hand, do have more discussions (although lately we have been a bit lax). He is more open to baptism, purgatory, Mary etc… but, understandable, is in a difficult position with a Baptist wife and family.

Thank God that God is God.

I will persevere… and rely on my sense of humor (as other posters may attest to) to replace some of the pain.

Great story and praise God for His grace.
It is true that if one looks at the truth of the Christianity, historically/Scripturally and most of all objectively, that person will if they are honest with themselves see the truth found in the Catholic church which was established by Christ Jesus Himself.

Cardinal John Henry Newman said…(paraphrasing) if one objectively looks at the truth, one will either spiral upward toward Catholicism or downward toward disbelief!