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Jimdandy
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Teflon-I did not say that baptism is the only necessary sacrament.
It is very dangerous to purport that only Catholics will be saved.
The gate is narrow-and I try to pray hard for all unbelievers that they may be given a chance to convert here, or before God at their death. God is Mercy in Himself, we must trust in His Mercy and Goodness. God will ask-How much did you love me and your fellow man? God will judge, God will purify.
(And who knows how much a painful, contracted illness goes to alleviate one’s time in purgatory-or what painful experiences await others?-I just pray that they are given relief and are able to join in union with Jesus, His Angels, Saints, and His Mother, Mary.)
We are all judged by what we know, what we learn, our ability to learn and also by what we reject. The Catholic Church offers the most complete Truth to follow. However, there will be many Christians, and Jews and Muslims and even some LDS who will enter, passing some catholics who disdain others for their beliefs.
As Catholics, we are given much, and therefore much MORE is expected of us.
How many Catholics go to daily Mass and receive the Holy Eucharist? How many pray the Rosary daily? How many read Holy Scripture daily? How many fast regularly? For that matter, how many go to Mass on Sat. night or Sunday each and every week.? How often do they receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation-once a year or weekly, or monthly?How many pray The Divine Mercy Chaplet daily for the conversion of sinners?How many abstain from ABC?How many support the Church generously ? How many instruct their children in the Faith? How many visit the sick, or those in prison? What extra measures do they take to help the widowed and the orphans.? The abandoned spouses and their children?
Jesus gave us explicit lessons on how to follow Him-Follow the commandments and live the Beatitudes. And He promised to always be with us in the Holy Eucharist and He sends His Holy Spirit to continually renew us…
Pray for Holy Priests
As Catholics strive to perfect themselves in their faith, they will guide others to it by the examples shown in their lives, not by criticizing others of different faiths.
It is very dangerous to purport that only Catholics will be saved.
The gate is narrow-and I try to pray hard for all unbelievers that they may be given a chance to convert here, or before God at their death. God is Mercy in Himself, we must trust in His Mercy and Goodness. God will ask-How much did you love me and your fellow man? God will judge, God will purify.
(And who knows how much a painful, contracted illness goes to alleviate one’s time in purgatory-or what painful experiences await others?-I just pray that they are given relief and are able to join in union with Jesus, His Angels, Saints, and His Mother, Mary.)
We are all judged by what we know, what we learn, our ability to learn and also by what we reject. The Catholic Church offers the most complete Truth to follow. However, there will be many Christians, and Jews and Muslims and even some LDS who will enter, passing some catholics who disdain others for their beliefs.
As Catholics, we are given much, and therefore much MORE is expected of us.
How many Catholics go to daily Mass and receive the Holy Eucharist? How many pray the Rosary daily? How many read Holy Scripture daily? How many fast regularly? For that matter, how many go to Mass on Sat. night or Sunday each and every week.? How often do they receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation-once a year or weekly, or monthly?How many pray The Divine Mercy Chaplet daily for the conversion of sinners?How many abstain from ABC?How many support the Church generously ? How many instruct their children in the Faith? How many visit the sick, or those in prison? What extra measures do they take to help the widowed and the orphans.? The abandoned spouses and their children?
Jesus gave us explicit lessons on how to follow Him-Follow the commandments and live the Beatitudes. And He promised to always be with us in the Holy Eucharist and He sends His Holy Spirit to continually renew us…
Pray for Holy Priests
As Catholics strive to perfect themselves in their faith, they will guide others to it by the examples shown in their lives, not by criticizing others of different faiths.
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emeraldisle
Guest
This is an “Apologetics” forum!
I don’t need to start a new thread because the following ongoing “Faith Alone” thread has clear biblical evidence that saving faith is in Christ alone;
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=236033
Also the Eph 2:10 verse states the following;
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Christians are created(born again) in Christ Jesus to do good works. Please note that this verse doesn’t say, “created in Christ Jesus by good works”.
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emeraldisle
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I think you are confusing the “position” & the “practice” of a Christian.
The “position” of a Christian is that he is a child of God through the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. The Christians faith is in Lord Jesus and He gives him the wonderful “position” of being a child of God.
The “practice” of a Christian is his life as a child of God, he now seeks to live a life that glorifies(pleases) God because he is a child of God. This “practice” of a new life as a child of God does not change his “position” as a child of God. His “position” as a child of God has been firmly established by what the Lord Jesus has done on the cross.
A Christian should want to live right before God because of Gods great love and mercy shown to him through the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross.
*For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:8-10 *
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Teflon93
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And yet isn’t that the implication? What other sacraments do fundamentalists hewing to, say, Once Saved, Always Saved deem salvific? Lacking access to the others, is salvation likely?
If equivalent proportions of Protestant and Catholic are saved, or if higher proportions of Protestants will be, the seven sacraments are just as the Reformers claimed they were—unnecessary and perhaps even detrimental.
Indeed, I have not said it. There is also the issue of those who died before the apostolic age and therefore never had access to the Church. Their ignorance is truly invincible.
As do we all. I occasionally catch some flak for pointing out that some Jews will be saved. Indeed, since Moses and Elijah were present at the Transfiguration, I presume some already have. God keeps His promises.
The exception doesn’t prove the rule, though.
We all so pray, but better by far to come to the Church now.
What Truth is lacking in the Church?
I’m a convert; I haven’t been given what cradle Catholics have—I came to it. I thank God for that.
First, not all the things you describe are sacraments, nor even required. We shouldn’t confound cause and effect.
Christ called upon us to correct our brothers. We do so to obey Christ. It is not fashionable now to do so, nor has it ever been. The Truth is never served by heeding untruths.
Part of the service of this forum is to make the Truth known. We don’t hide it under a bushel, even here in America, where our beliefs are a small minority even among the Christian faithful. Charity demands we share it.
Ecumenism, as laid out in the Catechism and detailed by Pope Benedict XVI, does not require Catholics to become relativists. We must always acknowledge that God is the judge, even as we urge our brothers and sisters to renounce the various heresies that are the sorry legacy of the Reformation and return home, as the Prodigal Son did. Many will; many won’t. We still leave the light on.
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rlg94086
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“Should” want to? I hate to tell you this, but the New Testament refers to such thinking as “shallow” (some interpretations would call you an “ignoramus”)
James2:20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Matthew 19:17] *And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” *
Philippians 2:12]
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
1 John 2:4-5] *He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. *
This passage really seems to contradict your false statement that works don’t change one’s position:
Romans 2:6] *For he will render to every man according to his works:
*1 Peter 1:17] And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
Revelations 20:12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
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August_AWeitzel
Guest
Well In My Humble Opinion, The Only Souls That Go To Hell Are Those That For Some Reason Only Known To Themselves That They Hate God.
Hating God Will Keep You Out Of Heaven Just As It Keeps The Devil Out.
Yes, Your Bad Acts Are Reasons To Hate God
The Reason You Stopped Praying
The Reason You Divorsed
The Reason You Molested A Child
Hating God Will Keep You Out Of Heaven Just As It Keeps The Devil Out.
Yes, Your Bad Acts Are Reasons To Hate God
The Reason You Stopped Praying
The Reason You Divorsed
The Reason You Molested A Child
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emeraldisle
Guest
Should Christians not be thankful to God for His great love and mercy shown to them through the Lord Jesus and His finished work on the cross. Should grateful Christians not want to obey God and do the good works He has prepared for them to do?
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For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do(not by) good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10 *
Also the following Bible verses clearly show us that the “position” of a Christian is by his faith in Christ and not by his own works.
*But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
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*Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom 5:1
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*What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; Rom 9:30
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*And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:6
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*For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:8-9
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Yes God does promise to reward Christians for their faithful service unto Him. Also the James verse relates to evidence of true faith in Christ, it doesn’t teach that Christians are in Christ by their works.
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Daniel_Marsh
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thats it, part of the false image comes from the polemics of anti-catholics and unfortunety part of it comes from catholics themselves.
Last summer, I remember a catholic lady signing “Mary Loves Me this I know for the church tells me so, …” using the olde “Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so, …” I am betting those who heard her attempt at humor took her seriously and believes she is going to hell.
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rlg94086
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Since all of the verses that we both quoted are true, clearly faith requires works and works require faith for us to be saved. When one is highlighted in a verse, it does not discount the other. This is why the doctrine of Sola Fide is completely unbiblical. You have to take the whole of scripture not just one verse out of context.
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Daniel_Marsh
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ah, nope it is because many catholics are like yourself in this post at least are poor communicators.Cuz they is ign’rant.
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Contarini
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Funny. If that’s true, why do most Protestants clearly NOT say this?They have to say that. You see, Protestantism is by definition a protest against and rejection of Catholicism. So if Catholicism does not lead to hell, where does Protestantism lead?
Only the hard fundamentalists say that Catholicism leads to hell. Many evangelicals may worry that Catholicism doesn’t preach the Gospel clearly or correctly enough, but that’s different.
Your dichotomy is false. There is a third alternative: that Jesus Christ leads to heaven, and that both Catholicism and Protestantism proclaim Jesus Christ.
Edwin
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Daniel_Marsh
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No Jon, not even once have I misquoted the “judge not” verse as you are claiming. And, frankly, I think the word “judge” would better be translated as “condemed”. For there is NO comdemnation in Christ.
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Contarini
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When you say you are “non-Protestant,” do you mean that you can trace your historical heritage back to the early Church in a way that doesn’t go through the Protestant Reformation? Or do you just mean that the Reformation is not key to your identity?
Since you speak of the “five solas,” you are clearly quite staunchly Protestant in the usual theological sense. So I’d encourage you to re-examine your language, which is a bit misleading.
As for the substance of your post, I’m tempted to say that you clearly don’t understand how Catholicism works. (You may well have been Catholic–being ex-anything impedes understanding of that thing more often than it facilitates it.) However, you may understand it and simply have an incredibly narrow definition of what it means to trust in “Christ alone.” To me it seems pretty clear that the saints and sacraments and the good works wrought in us by the Holy Spirit are not in competition with Jesus. But probably arguing this point with you would be useless.
Edwin
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rlg94086
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Or…many Protestants (and “non-protestant biblical christians”) have no sense of humor and/or don’t know a joke when they read one.
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Contarini
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Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Christians pray for the dead regularly and publicly.
Edwin
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jmcrae
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The “five solas” come specifically from Lutheranism (which is the original form of Protestantism), do they not?
Methodists (which step from the Holiness Movement in Anglicanism, which may or may not be Protestant depending on who you talk to) hold to the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, and Fundamentalists (who do not consider themselves to be Protestant, although they certainly have historical roots in the Calvinist tradition) hold to the Seven Fundamentals.
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Cat
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emeraldise, remember, I spent over 40 years in some of of the best evangelical churches in the U.S. Evelyn Christenson was my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor. John Ortberg was one of my youth group buddies. Steve Douglass was a member of my church.
Do these names mean anything to you? What they should mean is orthodox evangelical Protestant teaching that sells books and packs out seminars.
I know very well what evangelical Protestants teach about their “position in Christ” and what they actually practice in real life. Oh, do I ever know. It’s one of the many reasons I left the Protestant church and became Catholic.
The teaching that we “should” want to thank God through our good works is nonsense. It does not work that way in real life because it is "feelings-based. This leads to an addictive behavior in which Christians constantly seek an emotional “fix” or “high” through their “worship experiences” that will give them a jump-start towards doing “good works.” Once the emotions return to even keel, the fix is gone, the good works go with it, and the Christian returns for more “music” or “preachin” or whatever starts up their enthusiasm again.
Position just doesn’t mean anything to human beings. You’ve studied the Old Testament. The children of Israel were God’s chosen people, the apple of His eye, and yet they constantly fell away from Him and acted like prostitutes. It didn’t matter that God performed miracles for them, gave them food and water in the wilderness, and sent them prophets and kings–they didn’t feel like obeying Him and they followed their feelings.
How many married people do you know who don’t seem to realize that they are MARRIED?! They act like single people, spending money and running out on their spouses. Their married “position” does not make them want to “act married” out of love and gratefulness. They follow their feelings and act like jerks.
Have you noticed that books about “spiritual discipline” are becoming very popular in Protestant circles? Christians are realizing that they do not “feel” thankful at all most of the time, and they are seeking a way to discipline themselves to do the will of God even if they are not “feeling” the love of God.
This, IMO, is a step in the right direction. We should do the will of God even if we don’t feel anything, even if we have doubts and disbelief. We should do the will of God because that’s what Jesus said–If you love me, you will obey my commandments. (John 14).
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rlg94086
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I agree with you Edwin. I believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Truth, but I would never say that someone who is non-Catholic is going to hell. As the Baltimore Catechism taught:
Before I became a Catholic, I did attend churches that said Catholics are going to hell. I also attended churches who embraced Catholics as fellow Christians.
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Daniel_Marsh
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Hi Robert you can pray to people in heaven all you want. They simply can’t hear you, my friend. The text from Isaiah I pointed out before places heaven for creatures as a “land very far away”.
Now, Robert I do not deny that those in heaven do pray. In fact, if you look at the prayers of those under the Altar their prayer are very immature and frankly contradictory to what Jesus himself taught.
Jesus taught,
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
On the cross Jesus asks the father to forgive them. Jesus also taught us to forgive 70x70. Simply put Jesus wants us to pray for their salvation of those in the world who persecute us.
And, what do the very immature saints in heaven pray for? ROFL they call for revenge!!!
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Basically without being able to hear your prayers those in heaven can gain things to pray for by:
Those who recently died can share information about loved ones they know.
Guardian Angels who visit heaven daily can make side trips to share information they know.
Their own memories of a person when they were on earth.
Only God has the ability to hear you in heaven simply because only HE IS GOD.
Romans 8 tells us that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit pray from us to the Father. The book of Hebrews tells us that we have front door access only to God in prayer to heaven. With Both Jesus and The Holy Spirit who are God and therefore has the best possible prayer, I am not going to depend on the “very immature prayers” of “saints” in heaven. I am going to depend on the prayers that God himself in the persons of Jesus and Holy Spirit have to offer to God the Father.
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, **who also maketh intercession for us. **
Just think about that my friend, The Holy Spirit is praying for us in accordance with the perfect Will of God for us, And Jesus is also giving PERFECT prayers to the Father for us. And yet, we see in Rev 6, that the saints in heaven are giving prayers that are contradictory to God’s Will and Contradictory to the very teachings of Jesus himself.
So, whos’ prayer is best?
That of two persons of the Trinity who are God, whose prayers are in perfect alingment with the Will of God the Father or the prayers of very immature saints who are praying in contradiction to God’s will? Even if “saints” in heaven are praying the best they know how, their prayers can not live upto the prayers of the Holy Spirit, nor of those of Jesus himself.
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