Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[emeraldisle]

This is what I love about the fundamentalist view—the Bible is to be interpreted 100% literally for favored verses, even when doing so makes no sense in context; unfavored verses like John 6:53 simply cannot be taken literally to any extent, despite the fact that the ECFs did so in this case.

So no, the point of the verse is not that no one would ever experience physical hunger or thirst, although the Eucharist clearly nourishes physically as well as spritually. The distinction Christ is drawing in this chapter is between the manna which physically nourished the Jews in the desert and the manna which would now spiritually sustain Christians. This manna is not the word of God, but the Word of God, which is precisely why so many disciples headed toward the door at the very notion.

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35

So you accept that the above verse isn’t to be taken literally but that the other verses in the same chapter are to be taken literally. Seems like a bit of fanciful interpretation.

Where do you get the notion that I said the Pharaoh was a Christian?

Im just making the point that Pharaoh can’t be used in the context of Christians and their “position” & “practice” in the Christian life.

But of course Peter’s faith did fail again—when he left Rome, prompting Christ to appear to him once more. Peter then returned to Rome to be crucified.

Peter’s faith likewise failed on the Sea of Galilee, which is why he sank. Christ held him up then as well.

The Lord Jesus prayed that Peters faith should not fail, i.e. that he wouldn’t be eternally separated from Christ.

Do you believe that no Christian ever falls away?

Of course not didn’t Peter fall away and then he was restored by Christ. Sadly Christians like Peter do fall away but thankfully the Lord Jesus restores them!

.

 

[terillmorris]

How does this bottom line that “outside the Church there is no salvation” differ from those protestants who claim Catholics are condemned to hell?
My dad was a Lutheran pastor, and I’ve heard it said here that noncatholic clergy have the least possibility of claiming invincible ignorance because they knew! It becomes a roadblock for conversion for me when your church teaches my dad has little chance of salvation. He wasn’t perfect, but he certainly believed and was marked with the cross of Christ forever in his baptism. I have no reason to believe he wasn’t saved, because I believe in Grace.
I deny the teaching of some noncatholics that Catholics have no salvation. In the same way, I deny the same teaching of the Catholic Church.
Jon

Well the truth is the truth. It is only through the One True Church that Christ established that men are saved. You can cry all you want about it. It is like crying that 2 plus 2 is 4 because you wish it were 5. DONT HATE APPRECIATE!!! TAKE THAT ENERGY AND SPREAD THE TRUTH WITH LOVE AND CONVICTION!!!

 

[JonNC]

Well the truth is the truth. It is only through the One True Church that Christ established that men are saved. You can cry all you want about it. It is like crying that 2 plus 2 is 4 because you wish it were 5. DONT HATE APPRECIATE!!! TAKE THAT ENERGY AND SPREAD THE TRUTH WITH LOVE AND CONVICTION!!!

I’m not crying. Why are you yelling (printing in all caps is the internet version of yelling)? If you must yell, yell at those noncatholics who condemn you, not at those who accept you.
I found Notworthy’s response more charible.

From Notworthy:

Because when you are baptized with water in the Trinitarian formula, you become Catholic, even if it was done in the Lutheran Church.

Therefore, the Church teaches that you can go to heaven…

Jon

 

[Cat]

For those of you who believe that Jesus is the Only Way to heaven–(BTW, the Catholic Church agrees with you)–please tells us HOW we appropriate that salvation?

Practical, please, not just “believe.”

HOW do you demonstrate that you believe? What is necessary? A prayer? A testimony? Works? Baptism?

Just do a “step by step” for someone who wants to go to heaven. Give them the directions, the practical steps they must follow.

Thank you.

 

[terillmorris]

I’m not crying. Why are you yelling (printing in all caps is the internet version of yelling)? If you must yell, yell at those noncatholics who condemn you, not at those who accept you.
I found Notworthy’s response more charible.

From Notworthy:

Jon

I am “yelling” at you because you deny the truth. You appear, at least to me, to saying Protestants run no risk of going to hell because they are in the “Protestant Church.” This is wrong. They absolutley run the risk of going to hell because they are not Catholic.

 

[JonNC]

I am “yelling” at you because you deny the truth. You appear, at least to me, to saying Protestants run no risk of going to hell because they are in the “Protestant Church.” This is wrong. They absolutley run the risk of going to hell because they are not Catholic.

Of course I am not saying that. We run the same risk as you, and we claim the same grace as you. And I pray His grace upon you.

Jon

 

[Teflon93]

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35

So you accept that the above verse isn’t to be taken literally but that the other verses in the same chapter are to be taken literally. Seems like a bit of fanciful interpretation.

If it’s such a fanciful interpretation, why did the ECFs hold it and not your interpretation?

You also need to explain why so many disciples left. Christ, who spoke figuratively at many times, surely did not astonish them with a simple metaphor, did he?

Moreover, reading the whole chapter clears the matter up rather nicely. Throughout, Jesus is talking about how his flesh and blood is the new manna for the new chosen people. This is why just as the Jews never went physically hungry or thirsty in the desert the Christian will never be spiritually hungry or thirsty so long as we consume his flesh and blood as he bid us do.

Im just making the point that Pharaoh can’t be used in the context of Christians and their “position” & “practice” in the Christian life.

You make an unBiblical distinction in that regard. The Lord used the Pharaoh to fulfill His purpose, did he not? The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart also echoes what Christ said of his own people, the Jews, and why they would obstinately deny him until the proper time came.

David, no Christian, was the beloved of the Lord. Moses and Elijah, no Christians, were present at the Transfiguration.

There is a place for righteous men in heaven, surely, even those who antedated Christ. For whom did Christ descend to?

The Lord Jesus prayed that Peters faith should not fail, i.e. that he wouldn’t be eternally separated from Christ.

You have slapped an interpretation onto that text right after the i.e. That notwithstanding, Peter repented and returned to the path of his own free will. Not only did he do so, but he allowed his failings to be recorded in the Gospel and deployed to instruct others.

Of course not didn’t Peter fall away and then he was restored by Christ. Sadly Christians like Peter do fall away but thankfully the Lord Jesus restores them!

.

Yes he does—if they repent and sin no more. The Prodigal Son must give up his wicked ways and return to the Father. The sheep must heed the shepherd, and return to the flock when they stray.

 

[terillmorris]

Of course I am not saying that. We run the same risk as you, and we claim the same grace as you. And I pray His grace upon you.

Jon

No Jon I am saying that anyone who isnt Catholic is going to be damned to hell if they persist in that state and are judged in that state. If they are invincibley ignorant (not just ignorant but invincibley ignorant), and they have no other mortal sin on their soul then they can be saved, but that is the only way. If you are a Protestant I invite you to come home to the to the one true Church. On judgment day you will have to meet him face to face. Hell is forever.

 

[richardwy]

Because they live in an envelope of cognitive dissonance created for them by the Reformers and have yet to escape?

In one short sentence, Newman got it right: Ignorance of history is to be protestant.

Don’t know about cognitive dissonance. Think Belloc got it right using more words than the Newman quote.

 

[NotWorthy]

I am curious. where is this said? is this an early word of mouth tradition? I didn’t know Peter asked Christ to visit him once more

Peter was leaving Rome, it is said, to escape persecution. On the Appian Way (?) he came across Jesus heading TO Rome. He asked Jesus, “Quo Vadis” and Jesus replied (paraphrasing) “If you’re not willing to die, then I’m going to die in Rome for you” then he disappeared. Peter then turned around and headed back to Rome, where he was captured and executed. I hope I’m close in presenting the story, it’s been years since I’ve read the book, “Quo Vadis”.

It is early tradition, but I think it was also recorded in one of the Apocryphal books or maybe Eusebius’ histories.

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus said no one comes to the Father but by him. That means only Jesus can save us. Muslims and other non-christians don’ believe in Jesus and are devoid of this salvation.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does
not believe will be condemned."

Mark 16:16

Faith and Baptism are the core tenents of salvation. Without Faith in Jesus everything else dosen’t hold.

Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Peroid. End of Story. If you say otherwise then you claim what he did on the cross was for nothing and his suffering was for nothing.

Do you realize that you are teaching something that the Catholic Church doesn’t? Although you are about 90% right, the Church teaches that some muslims and non-Christians can go to heaven, if they’ve never received the Gospel, then they are judged by God on how they would have reacted had they received the Gospel (If I’m saying this right).

That’s the way it is with our Protestant brothers. I believe the Church doesn’t hold them responsible for rejecting what they have been taught is a false church, as opposed to those Christians that reject the Church even while understanding that the Church is the One True Church (Et-Tu-Martin Luther?)

 

[Contarini]

How does this bottom line that “outside the Church there is no salvation” differ from those protestants who claim Catholics are condemned to hell?
My dad was a Lutheran pastor, and I’ve heard it said here that noncatholic clergy have the least possibility of claiming invincible ignorance because they knew! It becomes a roadblock for conversion for me when your church teaches my dad has little chance of salvation. He wasn’t perfect, but he certainly believed and was marked with the cross of Christ forever in his baptism. I have no reason to believe he wasn’t saved, because I believe in Grace.
I deny the teaching of some noncatholics that Catholics have no salvation. In the same way, I deny the same teaching of the Catholic Church.
Jon

But it isn’t the teaching of the Catholic Church, not anymore. You should read the actual texts of the Catholic magisterium–Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus, for instance–and you will see that what some folks are saying on this board is just their opinion. The Catholic Church has made it very clear that people who love and follow the truth as they know it will be saved, particularly when they in fact are baptized believers in Jesus who only lack (from the Catholic point of view) certain elements of the fullness of the faith. Uncharitable Catholics on this board may speculate that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting in good faith, but that’s just their malicious ignorance. It isn’t official Catholic teaching.

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

But it isn’t the teaching of the Catholic Church, not anymore. You should read the actual texts of the Catholic magisterium–Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus, for instance–and you will see that what some folks are saying on this board is just their opinion. The Catholic Church has made it very clear that people who love and follow the truth as they know it will be saved, particularly when they in fact are baptized believers in Jesus who only lack (from the Catholic point of view) certain elements of the fullness of the faith. Uncharitable Catholics on this board may speculate that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting in good faith, but that’s just their malicious ignorance. It isn’t official Catholic teaching.

Edwin

We’ll need to see the excerpts from the texts before we’ll know that your intepretation of Catholic teaching is valid, Edwin. The bolded portions above require some evidence. I am unaware of the Church having mapped the probability space of salvation sufficiently to claim likely or unlikely beyond the well-known requirement to be free from mortal sin upon death.

 

[terillmorris]

But it isn’t the teaching of the Catholic Church, not anymore. You should read the actual texts of the Catholic magisterium–Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus, for instance–and you will see that what some folks are saying on this board is just their opinion. The Catholic Church has made it very clear that people who love and follow the truth as they know it will be saved, particularly when they in fact are baptized believers in Jesus who only lack (from the Catholic point of view) certain elements of the fullness of the faith. Uncharitable Catholics on this board may speculate that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting in good faith, but that’s just their malicious ignorance. It isn’t official Catholic teaching.

Edwin

I hAVE read Vatican II texts over and over again and it says nothing contrary to the traditional teaching. Read it closely. It may use nicer language, but it does not contradict. sorry!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

But it isn’t the teaching of the Catholic Church, not anymore. You should read the actual texts of the Catholic magisterium–Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus, for instance–and you will see that what some folks are saying on this board is just their opinion. The Catholic Church has made it very clear that people who love and follow the truth as they know it will be saved, particularly when they in fact are baptized believers in Jesus who only lack (from the Catholic point of view) certain elements of the fullness of the faith. Uncharitable Catholics on this board may speculate that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting in good faith, but that’s just their malicious ignorance. It isn’t official Catholic teaching.

Edwin

Teflon, JohnNC, terrillmorris, and a few other of our more “spirited” catholics:
Although he’s incorrect in saying “the Catholic Church has changed” it’s teaching, Edwin is correct in his analysis of the Church teaching on this issue.

If someone has never been properly taught the teachings of the Catholic Church and has had no reason to believe the Church is the True Church (and you know there is plenty of improper catechism around, both inside the Church and outside), then the Church teaches that they still have the ability to receive God’s Graces in a Salvific way.

My analogy is as thus:
If I were a football coach and I had a big game coming up, I wish to use my best players to win the game. If I bench my star quarterback, running back, and a couple of great linebackers, I may still win the game, but it is much more difficult.

The Liturgy and Sacraments of the Catholic Church are those players that I wish to use to win the big game (and the big game is my Salvation - "Hey, if St. Paul can call it a ‘race’, I figure I can call it the “big game”!).

Now, a non-Catholic Christian is the coach that refuses to play his star players. He may still win the game, but it’s a much more difficult struggle.

It’s a simply analogy, and I’m sure it’s full of holes, but it helps to explain (in my view) what goes on in Christiainity.

Now, with that said, those who know that the Church is the True Church and still refuse to enter into that Church, do so at grave risk to their souls.

 

[angelusm]

Hi
I am Catholic and I get annoyed when I see on other forums other Christians saying Catholicism leads to hell.
Why do they say this?
Please reassure me because sometimes I get worried about it,.

They want to justify the existence of their denominations. If the CC leads to heaven then what are protestant denominations for?
Reasons why protestants may have problems with getting to heaven:
They believe in lies and spread lies about the CC. Liars will not enter the Kingdom of God.
They often hate Catholics. It’s against the main commandment - the commandment of love.
They don’t eat the Body of Jesus and don’t drink his Blood because there’s no priesthood in protestantism. Because of the same reason they also don’t confess their sins.
They don’t obey Jesus because they don’t want to obey his vicar.

God bless.

 

[Teflon93]

Teflon, JohnNC, terrillmorris, and a few other of our more “spirited” catholics:
Although he’s incorrect in saying “the Catholic Church has changed” it’s teaching, Edwin is correct in his analysis of the Church teaching on this issue.

If someone has never been properly taught the teachings of the Catholic Church and has had no reason to believe the Church is the True Church (and you know there is plenty of improper catechism around, both inside the Church and outside), then the Church teaches that they still have the ability to receive God’s Graces in a Salvific way.

My analogy is as thus:
If I were a football coach and I had a big game coming up, I wish to use my best players to win the game. If I bench my star quarterback, running back, and a couple of great linebackers, I may still win the game, but it is much more difficult.

The Liturgy and Sacraments of the Catholic Church are those players that I wish to use to win the big game (and the big game is my Salvation - "Hey, if St. Paul can call it a ‘race’, I figure I can call it the “big game”!).

Now, a non-Catholic Christian is the coach that refuses to play his star players. He may still win the game, but it’s a much more difficult struggle.

It’s a simply analogy, and I’m sure it’s full of holes, but it helps to explain (in my view) what goes on in Christiainity.

Now, with that said, those who know that the Church is the True Church and still refuse to enter into that Church, do so at grave risk to their souls.

Not so fast----Catholic teaching is NOT that Protestants are more likely to attain salvation, nor that more Protestants than Catholics will attain salvation, nor that there is no difference between being Catholic and being Protestant in terms of salvation. Clarity on this point is required—too many try to fudge it to downplay the importance of being Catholic and thus gaining access to all of the sacraments and all of the teaching and support available to Christians seeking salvation.

This relativism does our brothers and sisters who are not fully Catholic no good whatsoever; moreover, it is a denial of the Truth the Church exists to protect.

So let’s be very careful here when we toss around probabilistic terms in ways that distort Catholic teaching on the subject. If someone is going to try to fudge that teaching to indicate that Catholics must believe that it is only necessary to be Catholic if you’re already Catholic, they’d better have the magisterial quotes handy because I’m going to demand to see them every time.

 

[Teflon93]

Let’s also see where this notion of “invincible ignorance” comes from per the CCC:

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61

 

[Teflon93]

And as regards ecumenism:

I. THE CHURCH IS ONE

“The sacred mystery of the Church’s unity” (UR 2)

813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her “soul”: "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262

814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264

815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:

• profession of one faith received from the Apostles;

-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;

• apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266

**816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267 **

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 **Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. **This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

 

[Teflon93]

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280

• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;

• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282

• fraternal knowledge of each other;283

• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284

• dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285

• collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

Note that recognizing Protestants as our brothers and sisters does not absolve us of the responsibility to expose them to the True Church and thus overcome the terrible disservice their forebears did to them through the wounds they rent in the Body of Christ. The Catholic Church is their birthright too.