Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[myfavoritmartin]

Sure I can—and I’ll quote it again. Christ gives the REASON for the separation. Or does he lie to the sheep and the goats?

Matthew 25, the whole thing:

**Tef nowhere does it say the sheep were ever goats.

The works of the sheep flow for the fact they are sheep.

When we get to this teaching He has already taught that works do not save you . In fact works that he does not ordain are sin .**
Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34
***Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
blessed of my Father, +++inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:+++

**NOTICE

They were saved (they were sheep) before the foundation of the earth

Now He teaches on the work HE HAD ordained from before the foundation
of the earth for them to do (EPH 2)**
Mat 25:35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.Mat 25:37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee
an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and
clothed [thee]?

+++++These works were the fruit of their salvation, it says no where
that these works saved them ++++

Mat 25:39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my
brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

+++The final judgment will be rewards for the elect and damnation of
the reprobate ++++

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me
not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Mat 25:46
+++ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal.+++

These sheep were not righteous in themselves, they were made
righteous in Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

Teflon NOWHERE does it say that the sheep are sheep because of their own meritorious work…NOWHERE…

It talks of good work yes…It does NOT attach it to salvation.

What is “salvation,” if not the ability to go to Heaven?

The “sheep” went to Heaven on the basis of their good works, in that passage. The “goats” went to Hell on the basis that they had sang out LORD LORD all the day long, but never lifted a finger in aid of their fellow human beings. (The “sheep” of course had also been singing out LORD LORD all the day long, but they were also doing good works, besides. Notice that those who never sang out LORD LORD at all were not even present at the Judgment; perhaps they descended directly into Hell because of their lack of faith, regardless of their works.)

So, faith gets you to the Judgment Day, but good works get you from that point until Heaven.

 

[Teflon93]

Teflon NOWHERE does it say that the sheep are sheep because of their own meritorious work…NOWHERE…

It talks of good work yes…It does NOT attach it to salvation.

It most certainly does, as any plain reading of the text shows. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned are all listed as the reasons why sheep are sheep and goats goats. They are all works—indeed, they are all the basis for the Church’s notion of charitable works.

Indeed, the whole passage is about judgment, damnation, and salvation.

 

[Teflon93]

**Please read the 6th chapter of John from verse 1 until the end. Maybe then it will make spiritual sense to you Jesus preformed a miracle where thousands were fed bread. He then went away from the crowd. The crowd followed him, but not because they sought Christ as teacher or Savior, not because they knew he was the Christ, but because they wanted to get their stomachs full of bread.

Read the rebuke of Christ to them**

Jhn 6:25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

It was then he began to teach that they were looking for a miracle that would fill their stomachs ( as did the nation of Israel in the desert) . They wanted their temporal needs met.

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus laid out that salvation was by FAITH, and that was a work of the Father

Then then decided to put Christ to a test …Give us PROOF. THEY brought up the manna …

Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They were still looking to get fed and have their human needs met.

Jhn 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
**
Jesus clarified where salvation comes from.**

Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven

He was pointing out that the "bread from heaven " that kept their fathers only gave them physical life. HE on the other hands was sent from the father to give them eternal spiritual life.

They did not “get it” they were looking for REAL bread to give them life as had happened in the desert, they were looking for tangible bread like manna.

Jhn 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Jesus then patiently explained to them that His flesh is life for the world… His crucified body was what was going to bring eternal life

Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you,That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
**
Jesus made a pretty clear statement here. YOU do not HEAR me because you are NOT given to me by the Father.**

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

**The entire message is on salvation by faith .

The listeners did not get it , they were hung up on another point .**

Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Notice the focus of the crowd was not on Him being the BREAD or eating Him but that He said he came down from heaven ( a claim of divinity )

Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Where did the bold text come from?

 

[Teflon93]

Wrong read it again only one is good NOTHING you can do, keeping the commandments is what he says we are to do IF we love Him…Our Faith saves our actions prove our faith. Just like James says.

Wow, torture that text!

The rich man asked Christ a question, which he then answered. He didn’t put in the qualifiers you’ve added thanks to your man-made tradition.

It just so happens that this squares with the Catholic tradition as expressed since Pentecost, not the manmade tradition you adhere to which didn’t appear until 1500 years later.

Inconvenient for you to be sure, but no need to torture and excise Scripture on its account.

Read the Scripture first, then try to understand doctrine. You have the sequence reversed, attempting to justify the received doctrine of your faith by cherrypicking Scripture and layering in interpretations inconsistent with it.

Which is how you get to the odd notion that the point of Scripture is that man’s works are naught but filthy rags.

Most of us get a far more hopeful message from it—that’s why it’s called the Good News, not the Bad News.

 

[Teflon93]

I omit nothing…If that’s the best response you can arrive at without substance maybe you should stop the argument now.
Personal jabs are counter productive.

I gave you the opportunity to quote what Christ said regarding salvation.

You cherrypicked your verses, clearly in support of the doctrine to which you adhere, and excluded all others.

That is not a personal jab, but an objective fact.

Perhaps next time you get asked the question, you’ll be more honest by providing all the evidence, even if it doesn’t buttress your argument.

 

[Teflon93]

Who says “rituals” and “good deeds” cannot be a way of showing faith in Jesus Christ?

For example, why is the Good Samaritan not known as The Unfaithful Samaritan?

 

[jmtosh]

Hiding in Thee My Saviour
Hiding in Thee My Lord
Thou blest Rock of Ages
I’m hiding in Thee

The only “thing” we can present to God on the day of judgement is Christ. In the end it is nothing but Christ for only Jesus Christ will do. I can not even present myself (see Jude 24).

When the King sits on the throne of His glory… WOW!!!

MFM is right. Keep speaking friend, keep speaking.

 

[Teflon93]

The catechism puts a lot more on them than “showing faith” showing faith is what evangelics believe about works.

1248 The catechumenate, or formation of catechumens, aims at bringing their conversion and faith to maturity, in response to the divine initiative and in union with an ecclesial community. The catechumenate is to be “a formation in the whole Christian life… during which the disciples will be joined to Christ their teacher. The catechumens should be properly initiated into the mystery of salvation and the practice of the evangelical virtues, and they should be introduced into the life of faith, liturgy, and charity of the People of God by successive sacred rites.”

You strain charity again with your omissions, MFM. I suppose someone who cherrypicks Scripture to support their manmade tradition cannot resist doing the same for the Catechism as well.

Lest anyone be unaware that I have posted the FULL relevant Catechism passages, I do so again now, and use MFM’s example as why Catholics need to look up the Catechism themselves and not rely upon the questionable accuracy (ahem) of the non-Catholic in presenting church teachings.

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59
2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 **The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. **

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

For shame, MFM!

 

[guanophore]

Trent and the new catechism

It doesn’t! that is only initial justification, read the following paragraphs 1987-95 talk about it’s a transformation of the soul where sanctifying grace is INFUSED and original sin removed.

1212,2010 and 1392 all speak of how justification is FURTHERED by sacraments.

1247,1248,1249 talks of the preperation of justification by faith AND good works

But those references only apply to those that live after baptism, and are therefore open to the probability of falling from the state of grace received in baptism through sin. A person who is baptized and dies was never obligated to any of these things, because they died in a complete state of grace.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Hiding in Thee My Saviour
Hiding in Thee My Lord
Thou blest Rock of Ages
I’m hiding in Thee

In the highways in the hedges
In the highways in the hedges
In the highways in the hedges
I’ll be somewhere a workin’ for my Lord

The only “thing” we can present to God on the day of judgement is Christ. In the end it is nothing but Christ for only Jesus Christ will do. I can not even present myself (see Jude 24).

That’s not what Jesus says in my Bible.

When the King sits on the throne of His glory… WOW!!!

I thought He was already there?

 

[Teflon93]

**Tef nowhere does it say the sheep were ever goats.

The works of the sheep flow for the fact they are sheep.

When we get to this teaching He has already taught that works do not save you . In fact works that he does not ordain are sin .**
Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34
***Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye
blessed of my Father, +++inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:+++

**NOTICE

They were saved (they were sheep) before the foundation of the earth

Now He teaches on the work HE HAD ordained from before the foundation
of the earth for them to do (EPH 2)**
Mat 25:35
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.Mat 25:37
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee
an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38
When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and
clothed [thee]?

+++++These works were the fruit of their salvation, it says no where
that these works saved them ++++

Mat 25:39
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my
brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

+++The final judgment will be rewards for the elect and damnation of
the reprobate ++++

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me
not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Mat 25:46
+++ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal.+++

These sheep were not righteous in themselves, they were made
righteous in Christ.

My Bible doesn’t have the bolded words—which version of the Bible does?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What is “salvation,” if not the ability to go to Heaven?

The “sheep” went to Heaven on the basis of their good works, in that passage. The “goats” went to Hell on the basis that they had sang out LORD LORD all the day long, but never lifted a finger in aid of their fellow human beings. (The “sheep” of course had also been singing out LORD LORD all the day long, but they were also doing good works, besides. Notice that those who never sang out LORD LORD at all were not even present at the Judgment; perhaps they descended directly into Hell because of their lack of faith, regardless of their works.)

So, faith gets you to the Judgment Day, but good works get you from that point until Heaven.

Are you confusing judgement of the nations with the Judgement of the great white throne in Rev?

 

[Teflon93]

Hiding in Thee My Saviour
Hiding in Thee My Lord
Thou blest Rock of Ages
I’m hiding in Thee

The only “thing” we can present to God on the day of judgement is Christ. In the end it is nothing but Christ for only Jesus Christ will do. I can not even present myself (see Jude 24).

When the King sits on the throne of His glory… WOW!!!

MFM is right. Keep speaking friend, keep speaking.

MFM is having great difficulty explaining why the reason Christ gave for separating the sheep from the goats, saving one and damning the other, is not the REAL reason.

But keep cheerleading while we await the evidence for MFM’s manmade tradition trumping the very words of the Lord.

Unless you want to start a separate thread on how one can have faith in the Lord but ignore his words.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

But there go the action verbs again. The Lord surely seems interested in what we do.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You strain charity again with your omissions, MFM. I suppose someone who cherrypicks Scripture to support their manmade tradition cannot resist doing the same for the Catechism as well.

Lest anyone be unaware that I have posted the FULL relevant Catechism passages, I do so again now, and use MFM’s example as why Catholics need to look up the Catechism themselves and not rely upon the questionable accuracy (ahem) of the non-Catholic in presenting church teachings.

For shame, MFM!

Shameful? I quoted all of 1248 not bits and pieces knock off your condescension. Just like I quoted all of 2010.

 

[Teflon93]

Shameful? I quoted all of 1248 not bits and pieces knock off your condescension. Just like I quoted all of 2010.

Condescension is failing to quote those passages of the Catechism which undermine your argument, as though two paragraphs were the whole thing, particularly when the whole was quoted earlier.

Is bearing false witness a sin in your community, sir?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

MFM is having great difficulty explaining why the reason Christ gave for separating the sheep from the goats, saving one and damning the other, is not the REAL reason.

But keep cheerleading while we await the evidence for MFM’s manmade tradition trumping the very words of the Lord.

Unless you want to start a separate thread on how one can have faith in the Lord but ignore his words.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

But there go the action verbs again. The Lord surely seems interested in what we do.

This is all about linking the evidence of good works to hearing the word and believing…
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Is bearing false witness a sin in your community, sir?

Nah, the OT Law, especially the 10 Commandments, doesn’t apply to us anymore. St Paul in Galatians says we’re free from the law, Tef.

 

[jmtosh]

Matt 25:31
When the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory.

Sorry, He** is **on the throne and He **will **sit on the throne.

Jude 24,25
Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Teflon93]

So to repeat, despite efforts to the contrary, the Catholic Church does not teach that works - faith = salvation.

Quite the contrary, as the full passage from the Catechism demonstrates.

Faith + justifying grace + works + sanctifying grace = salvation.

Note that this is tied closely to the Church’s teaching on sin, the need to refrain from it, and the need to repent of it when not refrained from; sin is the flip side of good works.

Many have attempted above to point out that if someone believes faith alone saves, on what basis do they therefore believe that those of us who believe faith + justifying grace + works + sanctifying grace = salvation are going to hell?

We’ve received no definitive answer.

We continue to receive variations of “Catholics don’t believe faith is necessary” and “Catholics don’t believe grace is necessary”, which are simply lies.