Why Do Protestants Shun Mary?

[JoeT777]

GaryTaylor,
re: “You lost me.”

JoeT777 wrote that if Mary wasn’t always a virgin, then the Messiah could not be both Devine and human. I am asking why she had to always be a virgin in order for that to be the case?

Christ can be thought of as the Wisdom of God made flesh who will “enrich them that love me, and may fill their treasures.” [Cf. Proverbs 8:21 seqq.]

See beyond the expressed declaration of being the Son of God [See Matthew 11:27; Galatians 2:4], the incarnate Wisdom of God is made flesh in the PERSON of Jesus Christ. Christ is the Son of God begotten not made, taking on the flesh of woman as man. In this way the Second Divine Person is God and is man, having two inseparable natures uniquely joined in One Divine Person.

Truth exists, the incarnation happened.

“God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh” [Romans 8:3] And, He was like man in all things except without sin. [Cf. Hebrews 4:15]

Mankind was created in such a way that it too creates life in a covenant union. The union between man and woman is similar to the covenant union between God and man. This Covenant brings everlasting life for mankind. Our union with God receives its spark of life from God like our prodigy receives the spark of life from their father. This is the sole function of the male semen, to provide a spark generating life. There is no living material transferred to the ovaries, only a genetic order made to cellular life by the spark. It is the flesh itself in the form of embryonic cells that comes from the mother maturing into an infant. The resulting child is wholly the flesh of its mother. The child fills its veins with blood generated wholly within himself; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child. In like manner we are blessed with Christ, begotten not made.

Since sin cannot exist in the sight of God. God’s “eyes are too pure to behold evil, and thou canst not look on iniquity.?” Habacuc 1:13 How much less sin could the Divine reside inside of? We can only conclude then that Mary is eternally Virgin, without sin.

God provided the spark of life necessary to generate life in the womb of Mary; that life was the personification of His Wisdom perfectly joined (incarnate) to the flesh provided by Mary, the Personification of God.

As an aside, the blood in the Christ Child is the Blood that all life emanates from and was generated from within Christ, who is Personified Life. Wherefore, saying, ‘eat, this is my body’ and ‘drink, this is my blood’ is to perfectly join the faithful with the substance of life Itself, Jesus Christ. Consuming this food we become alive as ‘adopted sons of God’ with Christ in us.

It is fitting therefore, that the Person of Christ found only in Mary who is filled with the living grace of God. Even science witnesses to the Blessed Mother being Immaculate, Ever Virgin, and full of grace. Fetomaternal cells as trafficking infant cells that emanate from the womb into the body of the mother. Such cells emanating from the Christ Child would never die and would be the very essence of life igniting the spirit making Mary wholly and completely blessed. Since there is no death in the flesh of Christ, there would be no end of the grace of life in Mary. Christ is the personification of grace which moves through her body and soul, her entire Person is blessed, Immaculate, Ever Virgin as no other can be except for the Mother of God, the New Eve.

Consequently, being wholly divine and wholly human from conception, Christ is said to suffer His humanity – which includes being born as human is born. Being the Personification of Justice He is not deprived of himself and thus not deprived of original justice. Christ is indeed the New Adam. His form is human, His soul is human which is received whole and complete from Mary. The Word, or the Wisdom of God, didn’t just metastasize onto a lumpy tumor; instead it was Flesh, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

JoeT

 

[zz912]

Because Protestants believe that Jesus is the sole mediator between God & man; some Catholics call the Virgin Mary co-mediatrix.

That doesn’t mean that Mary is the mediator between God and man. It means that Mary brought Jesus to all mankind. Just as another Christian brought you to Jesus (you didn’t find Him all on your own).

Because Protestants believe that Jesus it our Redeemer; some Catholics call the Virgin Mary co-redemptrix.

That title means that her perfect participation in the plan of salvation allowed her to be a part of the salvation of every single person who is or will be saved. Similar to the above. The redemption is completely Christ’s, but that Mary participates in our redemption by bringing Jesus to us.

Because Protestants believe that when one dies, they no longer have any knowledge of what’s happening on earth; Catholics believe that the Virgin Mary & saints can interceed for us.

You should read your Bible more. We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses know what is happening on earth. In Revelation, the souls of the martyrs under the altar cry out to God asking when their deaths will be avenged (hence they know that it has not been avenged yet). In Revelation 5 and 8, we see the saints and angels in Heaven are bringing our prayers and presenting them to God.

Do you have a problem with the Christian faith as noted in the Bible?

Because Protestants believe that Jeremiah condemned Queen of Heaven as a pagan goddess; and Catholics gave Virgin Mary the title Queen of Heaven.

You believe Jeremiah was speaking about the Mother of God in his condemnation???

And please answer this question: Do the saints in Heaven wear crowns?
Another follow up question: Are you part of the Body of Christ? Do you participate in His roles as priest, prophet and king?

Because Protestants believe that we are committing the errors of John,

Revelation 22:8-9 "It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.
But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”

You should read your Bible more. Bowing down is not automatically bad or evil. It depends on how you intend it, as honor or as worship. Honor is fine, worship is not.

Here Abraham bows/prostrates himself before 3 angels.

Genesis 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

 

[ajecphotos]

At one time i used to question why i prayed so much to Jesus and not ‘God’. Why i used the name Jesus and not ‘God’. Its only through understanding that one gets to realise these things.

I do admit though that at times i do feel as though i am shunning ‘God’ with my prayers even though i know that they are the ‘Trinity’. Its weird i know. Its just something deep within me sometimes rears its head and yells at me to hold on a min and try praying to ‘God’ more!!!

I do think this quite a lot as Jesus did pray so much to the ‘Father’. If Jesus prayed to the Father then i thought that we had to do exactly the same even though by praying to Jesus we are praying to the Father!!

 

[Jeanne_S]

At one time i used to question why i prayed so much to Jesus and not ‘God’. Why i used the name Jesus and not ‘God’. Its only through understanding that one gets to realise these things.

I do admit though that at times i do feel as though i am shunning ‘God’ with my prayers even though i know that they are the ‘Trinity’. Its weird i know. Its just something deep within me sometimes rears its head and yells at me to hold on a min and try praying to ‘God’ more!!!

I do think this quite a lot as Jesus did pray so much to the ‘Father’. If Jesus prayed to the Father then i thought that we had to do exactly the same even though by praying to Jesus we are praying to the Father!!

I had a lady once tell me,when I was feeling much the way you do…“God is never jealous of Jesus”;
As you also said three divine natures,one God,a mystery of faith.
Personally,when I say my daily prayers I begin with invoking the HS.I then give thanks,adoration and praise to God the Father,Then to Christ our Lord,followed by prayers of petition,etc

 

[rstrats]

JoeT777,
re: " How much less sin could the Divine reside inside of? We can only conclude then that Mary is eternally Virgin…"

After Mary carried and gave birth to the Messiah, why would she have to remain virginal the rest of her life?

 

[Jeanne_S]

JoeT777,
re: " How much less sin could the Divine reside inside of? We can only conclude then that Mary is eternally Virgin…"

After Mary carried and gave birth to the Messiah, why would she have to remain virginal the rest of her life?

Because Mary and Joseph clearly understood their responsibility in caring for the Christ child.their privilege was unique,any subsequent children would have detracted from their immense responsibility.

 

[zz912]

After Mary carried and gave birth to the Messiah, why would she have to remain virginal the rest of her life?

People and things consecrated to God are not to be used for normal/carnal purposes again. Mary was consecrated to God when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, and the Ark is reserved to God alone. Man is not supposed to touch it.

 

[JoeT777]

JoeT777,
re: " How much less sin could the Divine reside inside of? We can only conclude then that Mary is eternally Virgin…"

After Mary carried and gave birth to the Messiah, why would she have to remain virginal the rest of her life?

There is no indication in Scripture that Mary was ‘forced’ into a chaste life. You might say taken to the rim of the volcano and thrown in - I don’t think volcanos are even mentioned in Scripture. However, there is some evidence in scripture and elsewhere Mary was an ascetic who had vowed a chaste life, likely as a temple virgin. You might recall she said ‘her soul magnified the Lord . . . Because he regarded the humility of his handmaid’. She took on her role as mother of God out of her humble love for God. Remaining a virgin would not have been a ‘had to’ thing, rather a desire born out of her love of God.

Mary was Ever Virgin, this didn’t only regard her physical condition, it also regarded her spiritual condition, i.e. without sin. Mary was the ‘handmaiden’ of God which carries with it the implication of something akin to marriage. If she had had additional children we can presume that Joseph violated another’s wife. And the mother of God would have been an adulterer; God would have violated another’s wife or we could say our God is not chaste. Furthermore, those supposed offspring would be considered as demi-gods or competing Gods which they clearly not mentioned in Scripture. And finally, there are no identifiable blood siblings of Christ in Scripture. Only spiritual ‘brothers’ and near relatives are mentioned. But, if we take the sum total of all the children the Protestant claim Mary had I believe the number comes close to 26 male and female - now we’ve got reason to admire Mary all the more as the uber-mom.

JoeT

 

[DREADLION]

It is just one more false perception that Protestants ignore Mary. Pastor Jack Hayford actually wrote a book on her and usually devotes a sermon to her e every Christmas season.
No one objects. People just want a balance. The center of spiritual life is Jesus. He is the one who knew us before the foundation of the world, not Mary. He is the one who loved me so much that He gave his life for me, not Mary. He is the one who promised that I can do all things thru him, not Mary. He deserves all the glory, praise honor, and devotion. That is how Mary would want it .
BTW, Mary’s real name is Miriam.

You fail to understand that Mary was very important to all of us even Christ himself…God needed Marys ‘‘consent’’ to bear Jesus ,making her co -partners in a way …She played a very significant part in our salvation…Jesus would disapprove anybody belittling her just like any of us would be angry if someone talked about our mum that way…Protestants should be careful not to be overly righteous like the Muslim who think that God is too holy to conceive a son…Of course our worship belongs to only God ,but nothing should be taken away from Our Lady ,who accepted the will of God and in doing so through her Jesus brought salvation to the world…To bear her honour and reverence is I think pleasing to the Lord.

 

[eazyduzit]

That’s right, everything in its order First the Divine, i.e. the Vine, then the “faithful and the approved”, the fruit. [Cf. St. John Chrysostom, On First Corinthians, 39].

I’ve in no way harmed the Trinity. I think you misunderstood my comment. What I said is if Mary was not Immaculate, then Jesus Christ could not be both Divine and human; which, by the way, is a true statement. If she were not Immaculate then we must understand that He was ‘created’ and God is not ‘created’.

I appreciate the RCC as well. She made the Marian doctrines so utterly clear. The fervency and frequency we honor Mary is due to the Matriarch of the Church. If the Church is the Body of Christ, then Mary is the Mother of that Body and becomes the Mother of the Church. More importantly she is the New Eve whose son crushed the head of sin making it possible for us to ‘work’ with a renewal of original justice in men.

JoeT

Luke records in Acts ch. 1 that Mary was present with the other women and the disciples awaiting the gift of the Spirit. She is given no special recognition. Now if she was the very mother of the church, surely she would have a special and important role at this time.

Who do you think is more consistent with scripture? Those who give constant attention and veneration to her or those that just recognise her Godly example?

 

[Jeanne_S]

Frankly I find it disrespectful,the dismissive manner in which so many describe Mary’s role in Salvific history,it is to their detriment that they do so.

 

[CapnCurt]

“Shun” is a gross misunderstanding, and thus the statement is a generalization that does not apply to most Protestants. Protestants do hold a different view of Mary.

For example, “Mary is the Queen of Heaven, she is very much alive and is the mediatrix between us and her Son” … comments like this are shunned by most Protestants. This is not shunning Mary, it is shunning a mythological view of Mary. While Protestants revere Mary in the same way we revere other great saints, they do not place her in the goddess role that evolved from early Roman mythology. I Timothy 2:5-6 says “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” Either this is true or it is not. In the Protestant view, Jesus is the King of heaven and earth, and the only mediator between man and God. The Church (of which Mary is a part) is the only bride of Christ… This leaves no room for a mythological queen.

Other statements that strike Protestants as odd (from posts below):

:ehh: “God needed Mary’s ‘‘consent’’ to bear Jesus, making her co-partners in a way”

The God Protestants worship does not need human permission to do anything. Is there any factual basis for this comment? When exactly did God ask Mary for permission? When Mary became pregnant, she did not even know it… an angel had to tell her.

:ehh: "Mary was Ever Virgin, this didn’t only regard her physical condition, it also regarded her spiritual condition, i.e. without sin.

Again, this is great to say, but what is the factual evidence? Scripture tells us of the virgin birth, but says nothing of her being without sin. Further, Scripture does tell us that there was only one who was without sin and that was Christ. Jesus Himself said there is only One who is good (Matt 19:17). Was He wrong? Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If Mary were without sin, why would she need a Savior? Mary was truly blessed that God chose her for this special role… just as Abraham was blessed to be chosen by God to be the father of Israel. He was described as a righteous man, but we don’t misinterpret that to mean he was sinless.

:ehh: [some Catholics call the Virgin Mary co-redemptrix] … The redemption is completely Christ’s, but Mary participates in our redemption by bringing Jesus to us.

A Protestant might say that by this measure, everyone who preaches the gospel is a co-redemptrix/redeemer. Or, everyone that God works through is a co-redemptrix/redeemer. There is only one redeemer… the One who gave His life as a ransom for many… that would be Jesus. We can all rejoice with Mary… “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

These are just a few of the theological differences regarding Mary. To place God, Christ and the Holy Spirit on the highest level is not to shun Mary. It is the only right thing to do. Catholics often agree, but…

Blessings,

Capn Curt

 

[JoeT777]

Luke records in Acts ch. 1 that Mary was present with the other women and the disciples awaiting the gift of the Spirit. She is given no special recognition. Now if she was the very mother of the church, surely she would have a special and important role at this time.

Regarding Acts 1, the significance of mentioning Mary Mother of Jesus Christ was monumental in Jewish worship. During this period of Jewish history men and women didn’t pray together. I assume Matthew 16:16 has a completely different context from sacred Tradition. Then absent the importance of praying with the men what do you want Scripture to say about Mary that you would believe that she was the Mother of God?

Acts 1:12-14 show how Catholicism is a family of one mind, made holy by the spirit of God and persevere in prayer for one another. It shows that His last command to His Apostles to take Mary as their mother was honored. She lived in the community of the Church her spirit of humility and grace. No doubt she played a key role in Luke’s canvasing of firsthand knowledge mentioned in Luke 1:1. Making it clear that the earliest Body of Christ was devoted to Mary. Only Mary could have told the story heard in Luke’s first chapter.

Who do you think is more consistent with scripture? Those who give constant attention and veneration to her or those that just recognize her Godly example?

I’m not sure what this has to do with anything let alone the topic we’re discussing.

JoeT

 

[accitenor]

I tend to agree, Boomerang. Maybe at first some protestant sects venerated Mary but after all the executions of Catholics in the Netherlands who refused to convert to Protestantism, both sides became even more bitter.

 

[gspmcc1]

I do believe it is quite improper to lump all Protestants together. For example, I understand that Martin Luther had quite a devotion to her all his life.

 

[Frances_Caz]

I’m not sure what you mean by shunning? I don’t purposefully mean to shun her. I just feel that she is not alive and holds no special power, that she was human like everyone else, though of course a very wonderful and blessed person.

Only those who sin die - Virgin Mary & Saints are not dead as per scriptures – John 11:25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life.* Anyone who believes in me WILL LIVE, even after dying. 26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me WILL NEVER EVER DIE.

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

Ezekiel 18:20 “The soul who sins shall die”.

We ask Her to pray for us because She’s alive, like we would ask any family or friends on earth, & She is one of many mediators - Gal. 3:19–20 “The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one”. And we believe She’s a righteous person living eternal life – James 5:17 - “The urgent request of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect”.

 

[Frances_Caz]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Because of the teaching on this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

“For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
(Douay-Rheims Bible in 1Tim2:5)

Actually shunning is not the correct term, we choose not to worship her. I know RC teaching states it is not worship, but when the frequency and fervency of the focus on Mary is as it is reflected in modern Roman Catholicism, it is seen for all practical purposes as worship. As others have stated, we honor her as the woman chosen by God to carry His Son, but that is generally where it stops.

Implies there is more than one mediator - Gal. 3:19–20 The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

We honour Her, we don’t worship Her, that’s your opinion…

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Shun” is a gross misunderstanding, and thus the statement is a generalization that does not apply to most Protestants. Protestants do hold a different view of Mary.

For example, “Mary is the Queen of Heaven, she is very much alive and is the mediatrix between us and her Son” … comments like this are shunned by most Protestants. This is not shunning Mary, it is shunning a mythological view of Mary.

Other statements that strike Protestants as odd (from posts below):

:ehh: “God needed Mary’s ‘‘consent’’ to bear Jesus, making her co-partners in a way”

The God Protestants worship does not need human permission to do anything. Is there any factual basis for this comment? When exactly did God ask Mary for permission? When Mary became pregnant, she did not even know it… an angel had to tell her.

:ehh: "Mary was Ever Virgin, this didn’t only regard her physical condition, it also regarded her spiritual condition, i.e. without sin.

Again, this is great to say, but what is the factual evidence? Scripture tells us of the virgin birth, but says nothing of her being without sin. Further, Scripture does tell us that there was only one who was without sin and that was Christ. Jesus Himself said there is only One who is good (Matt 19:17). Was He wrong? Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If Mary were without sin, why would she need a Savior? Mary was truly blessed that God chose her for this special role… just as Abraham was blessed to be chosen by God to be the father of Israel. He was described as a righteous man, but we don’t misinterpret that to mean he was sinless.

Or, everyone that God works through is a co-redemptrix/redeemer. There is only one redeemer… the One who gave His life as a ransom for many… that would be Jesus. We can all rejoice with Mary… “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

To place God, Christ and the Holy Spirit on the highest level is not to shun Mary

The God Protestants worship does not need human permission to do anything. Is there any factual basis for this comment? When exactly did God ask Mary for permission? When Mary became pregnant, she did not even know it… an angel had to tell her.

Luke 38

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her.

Thats Marys consent and before she become pregnant. The angel was Gods messenger, the message was Gods.

Further had Mary been a sinner then being born of her flesh Jesus would have been born in her sin. Any ideas on any of this? I take it in your protestant area you don’t follow the ecumenical councils on the Nature of Jesus Christ? So which protestant group do you speak for? I am unaware of these theories. Do they believe in original sin? I want to talk specifically to YOU!

Again, this is great to say, but what is the factual evidence? Scripture tells us of the virgin birth, but says nothing of her being without sin. Further, Scripture does tell us that there was only one who was without sin and that was Christ. Jesus Himself said there is only One who is good (Matt 19:17). Was He wrong? Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If Mary were without sin, why would she need a Savior? Mary was truly blessed that God chose her for this special role… just as Abraham was blessed to be chosen by God to be the father of Israel. He was described as a righteous man, but we don’t misinterpret that to mean he was sinless.

Scripture again appears out of context/content. It would help if you posted what you are referring to aside from mish-mash. Thanks

Usual polemical tract which avoids the Incarnation being my point on page one. God was sinless. Mary being sinless is a result of God being sinless. Mary needed a savior like anyone who is baptized. Why, don’t those baptized need a savior? Or how does Baptism work in your area of protestant thinking?

Comparing Mary to anyone simply is lacking. Do you know anyone else who gave birth to the redeemer? Do you? Of course you don’t. Explicit by this act Mary cooperated in mans redemption. There really isn’t any other way to look at it. And she chose to since she had free will. By free will she cooperated in mans redemption. Unless your saying Mary didn’t have free will? I doubt that.

Christs human nature is of Mary, not His divinity. Are you suggesting His divinity is also of a sinful human nature from Mary? So what happened here? Obviously the insinuation is she was a sinner from the absent verse suggest to exist above?

These are just a few of the theological differences regarding Mary. To place God, Christ and the Holy Spirit on the highest level is not to shun Mary. It is the only right thing to do. Catholics often agree, but…

No-one asked you to place Mary on a level with God. Sorry about the misunderstanding. Is this all protestants with this conceptual misunderstanding and false accusation?

While Protestants revere Mary in the same way we revere other great saints, they do not place her in the goddess role that evolved from early Roman mythology.

Which protestants? All, some or just you? You and your group, since shun offended you. So lets be specific so we don’t repeat the error. You have no answer here…

ehh: [some Catholics call the Virgin Mary co-redemptrix] … The redemption is completely Christ’s, but Mary participates in our redemption by bringing Jesus to us.

I would absolutely suggest all protestants don’t think as you suggest. Amen we should be more careful!

 

[DREADLION]

Allow me to disagree. Mary was indeed the first of the faithful, the first Catholic Christian as there is but only one True faith of Jesus Christ as there is only one truth. How many ‘true’ Christ(s) are there? Is there a Lutheran Christ and/or perhaps a Methodist Christ in addition to a Catholic Christ? How many True Bodies of Christ are there?

JoeT

We must all conceded that the Apostles founded the Catholic Church…They developed the main theology of Christianity and safe guarded and compiled the scriptures that we have today Even though ,through Lucifers whiles and schemes many bad judgments and actions were taken in burning books that interfered with what they considered heresy ,such as the gospel of Thomas ]…
However we must all agree that ‘‘all’’ the protestants and many of the breakaway churches sprouted from the Catholic Church , And benefited from it’s many teachings …Which is to be accepted the old tried and tested version of Christ from the scriptures or a new interpretation of Christ by various protestants or break away churches that are more politically correct and remade to fit the world view …as opposed to what the witnesses and apostles declare ?..
I choose the old historic scriptural view .= Catholic view…However due to the infiltration of the freemasons and illuminati I hold no allegiance to the Pope or his cohorts as they are giving false teachings to deceive the faithful…I also do not pray or bow down to the saints …And I desire to keep the real Sabbath holy as Constantine had no right to change the laws of God…Asides from all that I’m still Catholic.

 

[hz3gzy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Because of the teaching on this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

“For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
(Douay-Rheims Bible in 1Tim2:5)

Actually shunning is not the correct term, we choose not to worship her. I know RC teaching states it is not worship, but when the frequency and fervency of the focus on Mary is as it is reflected in modern Roman Catholicism, it is seen for all practical purposes as worship. As others have stated, we honor her as the woman chosen by God to carry His Son, but that is generally where it stops.

How about: All generations shall call me Blessed! Luke 1:48