Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie,

I never said that Baptizm is not necessiary to enter heaven.
I just wanted to state that a Baby can’t decide for or against christ!
So if it dies, god will take it to him. It can’t sin and so also can’t make god angry so that he would throw it in hell “where will be weeping and gnarshing of teeth” (Mt 25,20).

Well, it could be that my argumentation is not that clear…
You can imagine that it is rather hard for me to discuss such complicated topics in a foreign language, which English is for me.

However I have found a nice quote for you, rinnie:

This is what I wanted to say. It is simply important that you get baptized when you really believe and want repentance.
As a Child younger than 8, or even worse, as Baby, you just can’t decide.
By the Way: you also force your child into a specific Religion by the infant baptizm.

So, if I would get a daughter or a son I would definitely raise her/him as a Christian. But I wouldn’t let her/him to be baptized.
When he/she cann decide herself for Christ, she should be baptized then. But for me she/he would total freedom which denomination she chooses… She/He can go to a pentecostal Church, a Baptist church, ar mennonite church or a methodist church etc. Yes, she/he could even go to the catholic church, if Jesus tells her so…

I mean the baptizm with water is really just a sign as I have stated in my previous post. (cf. Mk 1,8) It is much more important that you turn your heart to Jesus, that you repent, and ask Jesus to come into your life.

As far as I know after baptizm in my Baptist Church the pastor and another acquaintance or relative of the baptized Person spends the Holy Ghost - and this is the second baptizm - the baptizm with fire (cf. Mk 1,8; Apg 2,1-12)

So now, I do hope I articulated myself clearly about this topic why there is no infant baptizm in the Anabaptist and Baptist Churches and others.

Best wishes,
Esdra

Hi Esdra you are very sweet and kind. But I must disagree with what you are saying because it goes against the word of God.

I myself could not imagine why anyone would ever even want to wait. Maybe to you Baptism is just a sign but not to us my dear. To a Catholic Baptism is the giving of ones soul to Jesus Christ our lord and Savior. I could not imagine leaving that soul without the protection of the Holy Spirit being poured down upon it.

I also do actually agree with you on some of your points though. You are correct we must repent, confess and give ourself to our Lord. Again my Love you are very dear and sweet, but I do not agree with your Church teaching of the word of God.

 

[rinnie]

This is because many Protestant groups do not allow anyone to be baptized until they have reached the “age of understanding” (considered to be 7-8 years old in most churches, though it does vary from person to person). There is no point in baptizing an infant if they do not understand what is happening. Also, until someone reaches their particular “age of understanding” they are considered to be innocent like little children in the eyes of the Lord. Basically, if any person dies without the proper understanding of God and faith, they will die and go to heaven - baptized or not. Baptism is meant to be a conformation of your faith in Christ after you have been saved. If you are not saved and you are baptized, it doesn’t count.

Now that does not sound right to me. My best friend is protestant and had her infant baptised:shrug:

That is probally my biggest problem with the protestatant faith it is never consistant.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Hi rinnie,

I [SIGN]never said that Baptizm is not necessiary to enter heaven.[/SIGN]I just wanted to state that a Baby can’t decide for or against christ!
So if it dies, god will take it to him. It can’t sin and so also can’t make god angry so that he would throw it in hell “where will be weeping and gnarshing of teeth” (Mt 25,20).

Well, it could be that my argumentation is not that clear…
You can imagine that it is rather hard for me to discuss such complicated topics in a foreign language, which English is for me.

However I have found a nice quote for you, rinnie:

This is what I wanted to say. It is simply important that you get baptized when you really believe and want repentance.
As a Child younger than 8, or even worse, as Baby, you just can’t decide.
By the Way: you also force your child into a specific Religion by the infant baptizm.

So, if I would get a daughter or a son I would definitely raise her/him as a Christian. But I wouldn’t let her/him to be baptized.
When he/she cann decide herself for Christ, she should be baptized then. But for me she/he would total freedom which denomination she chooses… She/He can go to a pentecostal Church, a Baptist church, ar mennonite church or a methodist church etc. Yes, she/he could even go to the catholic church, if Jesus tells her so…

I mean the baptizm with water is really just a sign as I have stated in my previous post. (cf. Mk 1,8) It is much more important that you turn your heart to Jesus, that you repent, and ask Jesus to come into your life.

As far as I know after baptizm in my Baptist Church the pastor and another acquaintance or relative of the baptized Person spends the Holy Ghost - and this is the second baptizm - the baptizm with fire (cf. Mk 1,8; Apg 2,1-12)

So now, I do hope I articulated myself clearly about this topic why there is no infant baptizm in the Anabaptist and Baptist Churches and others.

Best wishes,
Esdra

You kinda lost me there Esdra. Are you saying yes you must be Baptised to enter heaven, or no?

Also I never heard of a second Baptism. Again goes against scripture.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord One faith. ONE BAPTSIM. So your Churchs teachings are very foreign to me my dear. kinda like English to you

But I appreciate your kindness.

You may want to take a look at acts 16:15 Lydia and her ENTIRE household were baptised. I did have someone tell me once that there were not infants in the households in them days. I guess they kept them in the barn or something

Also if you read Matt 19:14 Let the Children come to me.

Matt 18:14 It is not the will of God for Children to be damned. Would you not agree that our Dear Lord would never reject such a thing as the pouring of the Holy Spirit of Baptism.

Acts 16:30-33 Again ENTIRE HOUSEHOLD baptised. This is a prison guard and his family this time.

I know you do not feel a child could be brought into this world without sin, but again scripture disagrees with you.

Romans 5:18-19 ALL are born with Adams sin and need baptism.

I cannot accept your Church’s teaching when it is in complete contradiction with the word of God.

As I asked Richard maybe you can show me why would Paul compare circumcison to baptism if infants could not receive it? Does not make sense does it?

John and Mark are quite clear NO ONE enters heaven without baptism of water and spirit.

 

[rinnie]

I believe that RebeccaJ has provided a great response. In my case, I had agreed during our marriage to not baptize my son until he was older. This was a HUGE sacrafice that I was willing to make, in order to make the marriage work. However because of my Catholic beliefs and the fact that I would like to share those with my son, she has choosen to no longer be married to me and I do not have to make that HUGE sacrafice. I can proceed with the Holy Sacrament.

Paulp I am very sorry to hear you had to go through such a thing. Please give that lovely Son of yours to God as soon as possible. I am very sorry to hear about your marriage. My prayers are with you.

 

[Esdra]

Now that does not sound right to me. My best friend is protestant and had her infant baptised:shrug:

Dear rinnie,

Some protestant churches have the infant baptism and others don’t.
So your friend is maybe a Lutheran or a Methodist? From these I know that they practice infant baptism. I am sure others do as well.

Well it’s clear to me that you can’t agree to all the points I have stated. Otherwise you would be a protestant too.
You see, I was a Catholic myself, and actually I still am, officially. So I know the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
But I found out for myself that not all teachings of the Catholic Church are true. I have found “more truth” (for me that means that their teaching is closer to the Bible which is God’s word in eternity!) in the protestant Churches, mainly in the Anabaptist and Baptist Churches (but also in the pentecostal churches, whose teachings are nearly the same than those of the Baptist churches) after searching “many years” in the Holy Bible.

All I wanted to do in my posts in this thread so far is to state why some protestant churches don’t do infant baptism because this was the question of the Thread starter.

I don’t even claim that I have stated everything correctly because I am not yet that familiar with the Baptist teachings, as I attend this church only half a year so far.

I think you are also very nice, rinnie.

Best wishes,
Esdra

 

[paulp1002]

Paulp I am very sorry to hear you had to go through such a thing. Please give that lovely Son of yours to God as soon as possible. I am very sorry to hear about your marriage. My prayers are with you.

Thank you very much.

 

[rinnie]

This is because many Protestant groups do not allow anyone to be baptized until they have reached the “age of understanding” (considered to be 7-8 years old in most churches, though it does vary from person to person). There is no point in baptizing an infant if they do not understand what is happening. Also, until someone reaches their particular “age of understanding” they are considered to be innocent like little children in the eyes of the Lord. Basically, if any person dies without the proper understanding of God and faith, they will die and go to heaven - baptized or not. Baptism is meant to be a conformation of your faith in Christ after you have been saved. If you are not saved and you are baptized, it doesn’t count./QU

I cannot understand how giving a soul of a infant to God and having the outpouring of the Holy Spirit being sent into that soul could have no point to it. Forgive me for my ignorance, but I cannot understand this at all:shrug:

Tell me how would a child ever get the Education and proper understanding of God and his faith if it is not taught to him?

How can you be saved without the gift of the Holy Spirt given to you at Baptism???

1 Peter Baptism which saves you now.

Acts 16:30, 33 What must I do to be saved?..he and his FAMILY were baptised.

Matt 28:19
acts 2:38
acts 16:15

How can you possibly be saved without Baptism??

 

[rinnie]

Dear rinnie,

Some protestant churches have the infant baptism and others don’t.
So your friend is maybe a Lutheran or a Methodist? From these I know that they practice infant baptism. I am sure others do as well.

Well it’s clear to me that you can’t agree to all the points I have stated. Otherwise you would be a protestant too.
You see, I was a Catholic myself, and actually I still am, officially. So I know the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
But I found out for myself that not all teachings of the Catholic Church are true. I have found “more truth” (for me that means that their teaching is closer to the Bible which is God’s word in eternity!) in the protestant Churches, mainly in the Anabaptist and Baptist Churches (but also in the pentecostal churches, whose teachings are nearly the same than those of the Baptist churches) after searching “many years” in the Holy Bible.

All I wanted to do in my posts in this thread so far is to state why some protestant churches don’t do infant baptism because this was the question of the Thread starter.

I don’t even claim that I have stated everything correctly because I am not yet that familiar with the Baptist teachings, as I attend this church only half a year so far.

I think you are also very nice, rinnie.

Best wishes,
Esdra

Oh Love I am so so sorry to hear you have broken away from your faith. Please investigate every teaching of the Catholic Church that you feel are false. I promise you, that if you do you will find that you are mistaken.

Trust me my dear, There is not one teaching of the RCC that is false. No one to date has ever been ever to prove it. Because Jesus is the RCC. He is the living Church. You do not realize what you are giving up my dear. You are giving up receiving Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. I pray you can come to see what you are doing. I will keep you in my prayers. If there is anything in the faith that you feel you have been misled feel free to PM me and I will do my best to prove to you the CHurch has never led anyone astray in the teachings. It is impossible. Again I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Ok, I guess Ihave my work cut out for me.

No we are in total disagreement. There is no where in scripture that states only adults can be baptised.

And I am saying that is exactly what Jn. 3:5 is saying. But let’s look at some more of Jn.3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

rinnie, what does Jesus mean by this statement? What does it mean to be born again. Nicodemos seems to know that Jesus is talking about adults because he asks in the next v.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Well, rinnie “How can a man be born when he is old?”

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I would add Rom. 6: 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Actually scripture that state otherwise.Tell me this why did Paul note that baptism replaced circumcision then? Why did he use the passage Col.2:11-12, If St Paul meant to exclude infants he would have never chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

Ok, let’s look at these vs.
Col2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You will notice that Paul talks of two circumcisions here. The old testament circumcision is the circumcision done with hands. In Gen 12 we read 1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

It is God here who does the choosing. He chooses Abram and his descendants to be a blessing to the world. This blessing is of coarse to be the vehicle for God’s plan of salvation. Manifest in Jesus Christ. The outward sign of God’s selection of the Jews to His purpose was circumcision.

Gen17:10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Again God does the choosing and because He does the choosing. There is no faith involved.
The other circumcision is “the circumcision of Christ:” v.12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Now in the circumcision of the heart we do the choosing. We must choose to be born again. We must choose to become a Spiritual Jew. 28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Because salvation is of the Jews Jn.4:22

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Tell me this do you believe what Paul said that Baptism replaced circumcision. Well then if you do agree with this, your theory of infants not being able to be Baptised because they were not capable just got shot in the pants.

The Old law infants were who got circumcised, it was quite rare for an adult. Baptism replaced circumcision.

In the OT if a MAN wanted to become a Jew he had to believe in the God of Israel he must be circumcised.

If a man wanted to become a Jew he did so through faith.

In the NT if a MAN wants to be a Christian he must be baptised.

In the NT the only was for a man to become a Christian is to choose to believe in Jesus. This is called faith. There is no other way Jn.14:6

In the OT those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they were raised.

There was no choice. Either be circumcised or cut off from the people.
Gen.17:14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

In the N.T those born into Christian households can be bpatised in anticiplation the the Christian faith they are to be raised in.
Same exact pattern.

Baptism requires an expression of faith. Something of which an infant is not capable.

If one is an adult it must have faith before receiving the rite of membership, if one is a child too young to have faith one may be given the rite in membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith.

I don’t know were you get this from. It’s not from the bible.

This is the WHOLE BASIS of Pauls reference to BAPTISM AS THE CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST, WHICH IS EQUVALENT OF CIRCUMCISION.

This is my whole point which I am trying to explain to you Richard. You cannot even begin to understand the NT without understanding the OT.

They cannot contradict they must tie in to eachother. And if you have the true meaning which is SS and OT they do. IF not then you will never understand. You cannot get the full concept of the faith by picking verses out here and there. They must tie into together. They must.

I think by OT you mean Old Testament, but what does SS mean?

Jesus never changed the O.T he fullfilled it.

I know what the bible means by fulfilled, but what do you mean?

It was by his blood on the cross that replaced circumcision by Baptism. By Baptism we are circumcisied to his heart.

We are saved from our sins by His blood. Baptism is the outward sign of our acceptance of that sacrifice. Like circumcision is the outward sign of God’s chosen people in the OT.

 

[rinnie]

Ok, I guess Ihave my work cut out for me.

And I am saying that is exactly what Jn. 3:5 is saying. But let’s look at some more of Jn.3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

rinnie, what does Jesus mean by this statement? What does it mean to be born again. Nicodemos seems to know that Jesus is talking about adults because he asks in the next v.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Well, rinnie “How can a man be born when he is old?”

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I would add Rom. 6: 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ok, let’s look at these vs.
Col2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You will notice that Paul talks of two circumcisions here. The old testament circumcision is the circumcision done with hands. In Gen 12 we read 1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

It is God here who does the choosing. He chooses Abram and his descendants to be a blessing to the world. This blessing is of coarse to be the vehicle for God’s plan of salvation. Manifest in Jesus Christ. The outward sign of God’s selection of the Jews to His purpose was circumcision.

Gen17:10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Again God does the choosing and because He does the choosing. There is no faith involved.
The other circumcision is “the circumcision of Christ:” v.12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Now in the circumcision of the heart we do the choosing. We must choose to be born again. We must choose to become a Spiritual Jew. 28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Because salvation is of the Jews Jn.4:22

HUH?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Wrong dude. Who should I believe you or Jesus. I will pick Jesus. If Jesus was the only infallible teacher then how could Jesus say to the Disciples. HE WHO HEARS YOU HEAR ME, AND HE WHO REJECT YOU REJECT ME? Do you accept or reject these words? If you reject them then you reject the scripture If you accept that scripture would you not agree that they were teaching with the authority of Christ to the extent they were indeed hearing Jesus Christ himself speaking. Then how could they dare to speak the words of Christ without being infallible in what they are saying.

It is Christ who is infallible. The teachers are not.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

If [SIGN]a man wanted to become a Jew he did so through faith.[/SIGN]

In the NT the only was for a man to become a Christian is to choose to believe in Jesus. This is called faith. There is no other way Jn.14:6

There was no choice. Either be circumcised or cut off from the people.
Gen.17:14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Baptism requires an expression of faith. Something of which an infant is not capable.

I don’t know were you get this from. It’s not from the bible.

I think by OT you mean Old Testament, but what does SS mean?

I know what the bible means by fulfilled, but what do you mean?

We are saved from our sins by His blood. Baptism is the outward sign of our acceptance of that sacrifice. Like circumcision is the outward sign of God’s chosen people in the OT.

But you just said that a Jew did not need faith they were chosen by Christ and did not need faith

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner;6624051:

Whoa, rinnie, [SIGN]Paul never mentions the new covenant[/SIGN]. Are you speaking in your official capacity as spokesperson for the interpretive authority of the CC? Because if you are you better back up and read 2Cor,5:17-21again I have posted it above for your convienience.
Let’s take a close look at 2Cor.5:18& 20 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Now no matter how much you or your church wants this to say that only Paul is given the ministry of reconciliation or that only Paul is given an ambassadorship for Christ. THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS IS SAYING Read it again. It is saying "and hath given to us

the ministry of reconciliation;" and “we are ambassadors for Christ” I’m sure you are aware of 2Peter 3:16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. You really need to be a little more concientious in your exegesis. You not only have the potential of hurting someone who might believe your misinformation. You do it to your own destruction as Peter says.

How about Peter
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

No, that is not what I am saying. Jesus was and is the only person to walk the earth that is infallible. What I am saying is exactly what you said in your statement above.
**“Of course we are all callled to be spread the good news and be disciples of Christ.” **

Jesus never said there were infallible teachers, except for Him. That is why He tells us.
Matt.28:20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Christ’s church.

Again never said we are called to be infallible teachers.
Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not sure what your getting at here.

continued[/QU[/SIGN]
Oh but he does. The death of Christ described in 14-15 produces a whole new order. According to the flesh the natural mode of perception is replaced by a mode of the perception proper to the Spirit!!!

Your going to have to clarify this one. Not sure what you are talking about here.

 

[rinnie]

It is Christ who is infallible. The teachers are not.

Okay lets say I agree with you, which I of course do not. If the teachers are not infallible how can we believe in the teaching of okay lets say St Paul. Because please explain this scripture to me.

1 Thes 2:13 It says that it is Indeed THE WORD OF GOD. which the People HEARD from Paul. Now how can that be?

And why did Paul tell them to stand firm in where they were received by WORD OF MOUTH or by LETTER?

If you do not accept the teaching of the Apostles as submitting you the actual word of God then how do you get it?

 

[Dokimas]

For those who deny infant baptism, the burden of proof is upon you to show that in all of the verses listed there were no infants in all of those households and families. Do all house holds ALWAYS have infants?

Jesus Christ said in Matt 19:14, “Let the little children be, and do not hinder them from coming to me.” This is NOT about baptism.
He also said in John 3:5, “…unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” ‘unless a man …’; notice a man is an adult.
How are they to come to Him unless they are Baptized? ** Because Jesus loves them so much, He doesn’t require baptism for them.**

Those who say not to Baptize infants clearly have a Biblical conflict here NOT AT ALL, and they risk the salvation of the souls of their children. Your Jesus would deny an unbaptized baby???

Can you help with your interpretation of these verse,Thank You You’re welcome.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;6624429:

Your going to have to clarify this one. Not sure what you are talking about here.

Easy Richard Paul explains that the death of our dear Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh brings forth the Risen Lord in the Holy Spirit.

Paul is talking about how the death of the body ( the flesh) gives us eternal life of the Soul (Spirit). Paul is explaining what Christ looks like in the old criteria (weakness death) according to the New (wisdom power life) Paul is speaking of a new order created in Christ by the new Covenant.

He is saying that by his death on the cross he died for us all, so that beings that we have died in Christ we can live in Christ with eternal life.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

If a man wanted to become a Jew he did so through faith.

In the NT the only was for a man to become a Christian is to choose to believe in Jesus. This is called faith. There is no other way Jn.14:6

There was no choice. Either be circumcised or cut off from the people.
Gen.17:14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Baptism requires an expression of faith. Something of which an infant is not capable.

I don’t know were you get this from. It’s not from the bible.

I think by OT you mean Old Testament, but what does SS mean?

I know what the bible means by fulfilled, but what do you mean?

We are saved from our sins by His blood. Baptism is the outward sign of our acceptance of that sacrifice. [SIGN]Like circumcision is the outward sign of God’s chosen people in the OT./[/SIGN]QUOTE]

Good now we are getting somewhere. Then how can you agree that Baptism is the same as Circumcision but then turn around and deny it to infants. If circumision was not held back from infants how can Baptism be? This is what I have been trying to ask you.

Who changed it?

And Baptism is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give GRACE. No how could you say that Christ would reject that Grace which is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to a Child.

And how is it even POSSIBLE to be accept our Dear Lord Jesus Christ without the Grace that is given to us by God???

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I never said that. There are many Apostles of Christ not only Paul. I do not know where you got that. If you feel I said it I apologize I never did. I just quoted on that particular scripture.

Ok, maybe you can clarify this quote

Originally Posted by rinnie
Um Richard once again we have the same problem. You are saying something completely different from what Paul is saying. Paul is telling us we are called to the new covenant. Then he is saying HE is Christ’s ambassador through whom God appeals. If you continue to 6:1-10 You can clearly see that Paul is not only exercising his ministry of reconciliation he is discribing how his ministry is exercised.

In 2Cor. 6:1-10 Paul continues to emphasise that this ministery is given to us

1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, **we **live; as chastened, and not killed;

10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

 

[rinnie]

Again Baptism is an outward sign INSTITUTED BY CHRIST TO GIVE GRACE.

Baptism is not just a mere symbol of ones desire to follow Christ.

Through Baptism we receive the life giving sanctifying Grace of the Holy Spirit. This grace wipes out the stain of original sin that stains each soul because of the fallen nature we have inherited form Adam and Eve.

Baptism given by water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spriit is the gateway to God and his family the Church.

Baptism if only the beginning of our life in Christ. It is the entering of the Holy Spirit into our souls. It is that Grace and gift that carrys us to love and follow God more fully.