Why do some people prefer to be atheists?

[zyzz]

I referred not only to the existence of G-d but also the goodness of G-d.

I have no problem with accepting that someone believes in the EXISTENCE of God… for whatever reason (like the first cause argument). That is an unnecessary assumption - in my eyes - but it carries no contradiction, or a logical inconsistency. The problem arises if one stipulates the “goodness” of God. When one looks around in the world as we see it today, there is no sign of God’s alleged loving nature. At best we can get to the conclusion that God is indifferent. At worst we can say that God is evil.

God does not feed the needy, does not cure the sick, does not interfere on behalf of the tortured ones. At best, God is totally indifferent.

 

[meltzerboy]

I have no problem with accepting that someone believes in the EXISTENCE of God… for whatever reason (like the first cause argument). That is an unnecessary assumption - in my eyes - but it carries no contradiction, or a logical inconsistency. The problem arises if one stipulates the “goodness” of God. When one looks around in the world as we see it today, there is no sign of God’s alleged loving nature. At best we can get to the conclusion that God is indifferent. At worst we can say that God is evil.

God does not feed the needy, does not cure the sick, does not interfere on behalf of the tortured ones. At best, God is totally indifferent.

In Judaism, it is believed that G-d has intentionally created a less-than-perfect world. Further, it is thought that G-d depends on us humans as much as we depend on Him. It is OUR responsibility to feed the needy, cure the sick, and the like so that we may “fill in the holes” of the universe. We have a legal partnership with G-d in which each party has certain obligations that need to be fulfilled.

 

[Bradski]

In Judaism, it is believed that G-d has intentionally created a less-than-perfect world. Further, it is thought that G-d depends on us humans as much as we depend on Him. It is OUR responsibility to feed the needy, cure the sick, and the like so that we may “fill in the holes” of the universe. We have a legal partnership with G-d in which each party has certain obligations that need to be fulfilled.

Sounds kinda reasonable.

Seeing as I’ve spent a fair proportion of my life living in various areas where there has been a large Jewish population (there’s a synagogue about 200m from where I’m typing this), I am remarkably ill informed about Judaism.

 

[tonyrey]

The real test of what we believe is not what we claim to believe but how we live. If we lead good lives we believe in goodness - which is closer to believing in God rather than material things.

Jesus pointed out we cannot love God unless we love our neighbour - and be like the good Samaritan

As for the “belief”, whatever one claims to believe is what the person believes. If one claims to be a Christian or a Catholic, then that is what they are, regardless of their actions.

By their fruits you shall know them…

 

[tonyrey]

Having tried several times over the years that is not true.

One can lie and fake the appearance of belief (a closet atheist), but one can not sincerely believe what they consider false.

Life is not so simple as that unless we are fanatics. There is always an element of uncertainty…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yeah, everyone discounts polls when they don’t return the result one wants. Yet you deny the evidence of the polls and then in the very next breath state that you believe that there is no doubt what they show.

Sheesh. Talk about shooting the messenger.

So you believe every poll you’ve ever read? Silly boy!

 

[zyzz]

Jesus pointed out we cannot love God unless we love our neighbour - and be like the good Samaritan

But the opposite is not true. One can “love” their neighbors, and NOT love God. And the prerequisite to get to heaven is to love God… whatever that means.

By their fruits you shall know them…

Don’t judge others. If they profess to be Christian, then they are Christian. Maybe not very “good” ones, but still.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

At best we can get to the conclusion that God is indifferent. At worst we can say that God is evil.

When you stand before the Judge, you had better hope with all your heart he is not evil.

 

[zyzz]

In Judaism, it is believed that G-d has intentionally created a less-than-perfect world. Further, it is thought that G-d depends on us humans as much as we depend on Him. It is OUR responsibility to feed the needy, cure the sick, and the like so that we may “fill in the holes” of the universe. We have a legal partnership with G-d in which each party has certain obligations that need to be fulfilled.

Do you remember Elie Wiesel? In the concentration camp he and his fellow Jewish inmates held an “informal” trial, and condemned God for not keeping his promises.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

As for the “belief”, whatever one claims to believe is what the person believes. If one claims to be a Christian or a Catholic, then that is what they are, regardless of their actions.

No, this is what they claim to be, not necessarily what they believe. There’s a difference.

A man who gets elected to office lays claim to be a politician.

If all he does in office is to rob the public till, he is a thief, not a politician.

There’s a huge difference between doctors and quacks, lawyers and shysters, priests and pedophiles.

 

[zyzz]

No, this is what they claim to be, not necessarily what they believe. There’s a difference.

Since you have no access to their actual beliefs, you are not in the position make judgment calls about those beliefs.

 

[punisherthunder]

I used to work with a young lady, who was one of the nicest and friendliest people you would ever meet. She was always a joy to work with and chat with whenever I saw her on the same shift. However, she was an atheist.

I asked her one day why she was atheist and she said that while using that term, she wasn’t necessarily, but that she wanted real, genuine proof of God. I kindly told her my own story of visiting a Marian apparition site and the experience with all the roses. Her eyes kind of widened and I remember her looking at me and meekly saying ,“I want something like that to happen to me.”

In the end before I left that job I told her that I was seeking God in a humble way at that site and the Virgin Mary blessed us with a grace as result of our faith. However, for this young lady, she confessed to me that she was delving further and deeper into black magical arts because she was searching for some sort of “physical proof”.

In the end, all atheists want visual proof. But like the parable of the rich man, the angel said if he won’t believe the prophets that were sent then neither would he believe any angels or someone from the dead.

 

[zyzz]

In the end, all atheists want visual proof.

Not exactly. They want objective evidence, which is NOT hearsay.

But like the parable of the rich man, the angel said if he won’t believe the prophets that were sent then neither would he believe any angels or someone from the dead.

Anything that we can verify for ourselves would do.

But of course there is nothing wrong with demanding physical proof. God is supposed to be able to take on a physical form and could convince anyone about his divine nature - if only he wanted to. There was nothing wrong with Doubting Thomas and the answer of “blessed are the ones who have not seen and yet believe” sounds like a major cop-out. Moreover there is the promise: “ask and you will be answered” and “knock and the door will be opened”… except that these “promises” are not kept. And yet, is always the atheists who are blamed for demanding that the promises MUST be fulfilled. What is a charitable word for those who make promises and do not keep them?

The funny thing is that the Christians are exactly as skeptical about the claims of other religions as the atheists. They just wish to use a more “lenient” evidential standard for their own claims. Sorry… there is only one standard, and unless you can live up to it, you will be shrugged off.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . she confessed to me that she was delving further and deeper into black magical arts because she was searching for some sort of “physical proof”. . .

:twocents:

She may have been looking more for some kind of thrill rather than a relationship with God, which we can establish at any time.

Perhaps, in her family the way people got attention was by acting out.
By doing the opposite of what she should do, she perhaps was seeking God’s attention.
If that is her course, she will get it, hitting rock bottom.
I would add that from what I observe, we are much closer to God when we are not well-fed and comfortable.

People want to maintain a sense of control. We try to get there by our own means and will. The way it works though is through surrender.

Telling God that if He does so-and-so, we will then believe, tends to result in His silence.
Clearly the focus of such a demand is oneself, which the silence will burn away.

The aim is to love one another and to hold Love in its rightful place at the Centre of one’s existence. This is so obvious, but people do not see it. What proof are they looking for?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Sorry… there is only one standard, and unless you can live up to it, you will be shrugged off.

Sorry, there is but one final standard … faith and works.

And those who shrug them off will be shrugged off.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

For your information, Dr. Paul Vitz, psychologist and author of Faith of the Fatherless, a treatise on why many people turn to atheism, recounts in that book his own experiment with atheism when he discovered, after a time in his field, that many psychologists were atheists, and he had better join the crowd to get along. That is what I call the self fooling the self.

I would tend to agree with your assessment…further I would find such a psychologist incapable of independent and rational thought to be somewhat troubling…

If you don’t believe people lie to themselves all the time and believe some of those lies when it accrues to their perceived benefit, you have probably not lived very long.

May you live much, much longer!

While it is certainly possible to imagine that an individual may choose self-deception when deciding to cheat on a diet, it seems remarkably less plausible to do so when endeavoring to live in accordance to perceived existential truths…for if so, how might a case not be made that you may be also, at this very moment, practicing self-deception in order to subscribe to an afterlife that you do not truly rationally believe to exist…?

To clarify, if such a concept could not be true for yourself why might it be considered at all possible to be believable for another?

Though I do appreciate the compliment at my alleged youthfulness I am somewhat regretful to be forced to dispel such an illusion…

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Life is not so simple as that unless we are fanatics. There is always an element of uncertainty…

True. There are always different levels of uncertainty of nearly everything. Such is life.

Many shades of grey between black and white if you will.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . While it is certainly possible to imagine that an individual may choose self-deception when deciding to cheat on a diet, it seems remarkably less plausible to do so when endeavoring to live in accordance to perceived existential truths…for if so, how might a case not be made that you may be also, at this very moment, practicing self-deception in order to subscribe to an afterlife that you do not truly rationally believe to exist…? . . .

It is my observation that it is a struggle for people to live up to the truths they hold.

As it is embarrassing for me to admit that I find the television show The Big Bang Theory funny, I can easily imagine someone holding back when confronted in an academic or scientific setting with a situation where a statement regarding their belief in God would be in order. You keep silent long enough, the it-doesn’t-matter gradually takes over, and you lose the grace that provided you with an insight into the true nature of Reality. That may be how many atheists are formed. An initial temerity becomes a self-deception in order to deal with the incongruity between one’s actions and beliefs. Beliefs can be easily discarded in the face of hard choices.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sounds kinda reasonable.

Seeing as I’ve spent a fair proportion of my life living in various areas where there has been a large Jewish population (there’s a synagogue about 200m from where I’m typing this), I am remarkably ill informed about Judaism.

It’s never too late to learn!

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus pointed out we cannot love God unless we love our neighbour - and be like the good Samaritan

That is only a distinction in the mind of an atheist. God sustains our existence: “In Him we live, move and have our being.” Jesus also said “What you do to others you do to me”. Even by earthly standards we need one another and are not self-sufficient.

By their fruits you shall know them…

.

Don’t judge others.

I’m not judging but stating a fact.
Words without deeds are worthless. In both philosophy and science the best test of a hypothesis is whether it is fertile, leads to further discoveries and successful predictions.