Why do some people prefer to be atheists?

[Charlemagne_III]

What do you mean precisely? How is one able to ‘fool themselves that they are a Christian?’ Was it not your position earlier that one is able to ‘fool themselves that they are an Atheist?’

Why would one wish to fool themselves in such a manner in either case?

One fools oneself that one is atheist because social/economic benefits accrue from the fooling.

Likewise one fools oneself that one is Christian because benefits accrue from the fooling.

The authentic Christian does not live such a lie to himself. And that’s often proven when push come to shove.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

One fools oneself that one is atheist because social/economic benefits accrue from the fooling.

Likewise one fools oneself that one is Christian because benefits accrue from the fooling.

The authentic Christian does not live such a lie to himself. And that’s often proven when push come to shove.

I do not understand how an individual fools himself to believe that which he does not believe. This answer is not helpful.

Person A does not believe in God, but ‘fools’ himself into so doing in order to ?

Person B does believe in God, but ‘fools’ himself into not so doing in order to ?

Have you been in such a position of fooling yourself in either capacity?

I simply cannot comprehend why an individual would willingly fool himself. This does not make any reasonable sense.

I am an atheist. I would like not to be one. Kindly explain how I may stop ‘fooling’ myself so as to ensure that I am a Christian that is not still ‘fooling’ himself into a false belief in God.

Thus far I have been told to simply believe…or to simply have faith and then belief will come subsequently. How is such a position not necessarily ‘fooling’ one’s self?

 

[Aloysium]

Why should any Catholic in this forum take seriously any of your insults to our God?

The problem with the ignore feature on the forum is that the quotes show up.
So I had to skip over the quote on which you are commenting.
But, I would concur with your assessment based solely on the sources.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I do not understand how an individual fools himself to believe that which he does not believe. This answer is not helpful.

For your information, Dr. Paul Vitz, psychologist and author of Faith of the Fatherless, a treatise on why many people turn to atheism, recounts in that book his own experiment with atheism when he discovered, after a time in his field, that many psychologists were atheists, and he had better join the crowd to get along. That is what I call the self fooling the self.

If you don’t believe people lie to themselves all the time and believe some of those lies when it accrues to their perceived benefit, you have probably not lived very long.

May you live much, much longer!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

For your information, Dr. Paul Vitz, psychologist and author of Faith of the Fatherless, a treatise on why many people turn to atheism, recounts in that book his own experiment with atheism when he discovered, after a time in his field, that many psychologists were atheists, and he had better join the crowd to get along.

So…you are saying they are giving into peer pressure?

 

[Aloysium]

So…you are saying they are giving into peer pressure?

I think the example was pretty straight forward and represents what one might expect in politics but is unfortunately all too common in academic and scientific circles, where one might hope for better.
It’s called conformity, has more derogatory terms associated with it, and is glaringly apparent to those for whom the truth is important.
I am surprised you asked, actually.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

It’s called conformity

I’m familiar with the concept. But it’s not the concept that I’m trying to examine, but the broader theory of mind being applied and whether or not it’s consistent with some other things that have been said.

I am surprised you asked, actually.

Okay.

 

[Bradski]

‘Yes, because I don’t believe your position holds great enough certainty.’

And yours does?

Well may you place a ‘confused’ emoticon after that question. You obviously are. I mean I REALLY do not get why you guys cannot understand such a simple concept such as atheism.

There is no ‘other position’ which holds great enough certainty. The very fact that your position does not IS the position. There is no replacement for your God. We don’t believe in something else. You are not discussing these matters with a Hindu for example. If you were, it would be quite valid to ask if they felt their position (their belief) held more certainty than yours.

Asking that question of an atheist is nonsensical. To write it out in full sounds like this:

Does your belief that you don’t believe that my position holds enough certainty have more certainty that the position which you don’t think has enough certainty.

Straight from Alice in Wonderland.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So…you are saying they are giving into peer pressure?

Yes.

An authentic Christian does not give in to peer pressure on something so vital as abandoning his faith for profit.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Straight from Alice in Wonderland.

O.K., Mr. Mad Hatter.

 

[Bradski]

Yes.

An authentic Christian does not give in to peer pressure on something so vital as abandoning his faith for profit.

But it cannot be argued against the fact that many, if not most, Christians are ‘cultural Christians’. Christians because of their upbringing. Peer pressure, if you will.

Even my wife, for very many years, used to write ‘Christian’ if a form asked for one’s religion. ‘Because that was the way I was brought up’ she had to say. And there are enough polls that show many people who don’t even believe in God who still class themselves as Christian.

I put this anomaly in the same basket as someone who classes theselves as a Jew but is not religious. It’s more cultural.

"But a lack of certainty in God’s existence has become more common even among some Christian groups and members of non-Christian faiths. For example, two-thirds (66%) of those in the mainline Protestant tradition now say they are absolutely certain that God exists, down from 73% in 2007. A similar trend is seen among Catholics: 64% expressed an absolutely certain belief in God in 2014, compared with 72% in 2007."pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/04/americans-faith-in-god-may-be-eroding/

Those figures mean that around one third of Catholics are NOT absolutely certain that God exists. How would you describe them? Agnostic Catholics?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

"But a lack of certainty in God’s existence has become more common even among some Christian groups and members of non-Christian faiths. For example, two-thirds (66%) of those in the mainline Protestant tradition now say they are absolutely certain that God exists, down from 73% in 2007. A similar trend is seen among Catholics: 64% expressed an absolutely certain belief in God in 2014, compared with 72% in 2007."pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/04/americans-faith-in-god-may-be-eroding/

Those figures mean that around one third of Catholics are NOT absolutely certain that God exists. How would you describe them? Agnostic Catholics?

I have long ceased to put faith in statistics. The method of gathering them is always suspect, and all the more suspect in matters of religion than just about anything.

Indeed, "What does the term “absolutely certain” actually mean? And did everyone in the survey know what it meant?

That Christianity is getting watered down, thanks to the rise of agnosticism and atheism, there can be no doubt. You guys run the government, the scientific establishment, and the academic systems. What chance have Christians to b e certain of anything once you get through your cult of subjective relativism. This is why the Church recognizes in recent decades the need for a new evangelizing … not of non-Christians, but of Christians themselves!

By the way, Bradski, even that great “relativist” Einstein was certain of one thing … that he was not an atheist!

“I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.” Albert Einstein

 

[tonyrey]

But it cannot be argued against the fact that many, if not most, Christians are ‘cultural Christians’. Christians because of their upbringing. Peer pressure, if you will.

Even my wife, for very many years, used to write ‘Christian’ if a form asked for one’s religion. ‘Because that was the way I was brought up’ she had to say. And there are enough polls that show many people who don’t even believe in God who still class themselves as Christian.

I put this anomaly in the same basket as someone who classes theselves as a Jew but is not religious. It’s more cultural.

"But a lack of certainty in God’s existence has become more common even among some Christian groups and members of non-Christian faiths. For example, two-thirds (66%) of those in the mainline Protestant tradition now say they are absolutely certain that God exists, down from 73% in 2007. A similar trend is seen among Catholics: 64% expressed an absolutely certain belief in God in 2014, compared with 72% in 2007."pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/04/americans-faith-in-god-may-be-eroding/

Those figures mean that around one third of Catholics are NOT absolutely certain that God exists. How would you describe them? Agnostic Catholics?

The real test of what we believe is not what we claim to believe but how we live. If we lead good lives we believe in goodness - which is closer to believing in God rather than material things.

 

[Bradski]

I have long ceased to put faith in statistics. The method of gathering them is always suspect, and all the more suspect in matters of religion than just about anything.

That Christianity is getting watered down, thanks to the rise of agnosticism and atheism, there can be no doubt. You guys run the government…

Yeah, everyone discounts polls when they don’t return the result one wants. Yet you deny the evidence of the polls and then in the very next breath state that you believe that there is no doubt what they show.

Sheesh. Talk about shooting the messenger.

And ‘you guys’ run the government? And science? Didn’t you forget education and the media? Ye gods, this is paranoia run amok. There are about 4% of the population of the U.S. who declare themselves as atheists. Do you know how many there are in congress?

Zip. Nada. Rien. Zero. Zilch. None.

Do you know the chances of an atheist being elected president?

Zip. Nada. Rien. Zero. Zilch. None.

And what was it you said? We run the show? That’s like saying the Christian far right run the Iranian Parliament.

 

[zyzz]

The real test of what we believe is not what we claim to believe but how we live. If we lead good lives we believe in goodness - which is closer to believing in God rather than material things.

Sounds very nice, but it is incorrect. Don’t forget that we cannot “earn” our way to heaven. No matter how lovingly we act, no matter how helpful we are, it does not count, IF we do not do it for the “love” of God. Acts without faith do not count, just like faith without acts does not count.

As for the “belief”, whatever one claims to believe is what the person believes. If one claims to be a Christian or a Catholic, then that is what they are, regardless of their actions.

 

[meltzerboy]

Sounds very nice, but it is incorrect. Don’t forget that we cannot “earn” our way to heaven. No matter how lovingly we act, no matter how helpful we are, it does not count, IF we do not do it for the “love” of God. Acts without faith do not count, just like faith without acts does not count.

As for the “belief”, whatever one claims to believe is what the person believes. If one claims to be a Christian or a Catholic, then that is what they are, regardless of their actions.

Catholicism puts a lot of emphasis on good works as well as faith. It is not a question of ‘earning’ one’s path to salvation (heaven) but rather acting as Jesus acted and according to his message.

Judaism is likewise very behavior-oriented. Morality in action is central to the religious teaching.

Acts without faith DO count, I believe, in both religions since, as I think the previous poster expressed, when one acts with goodness, one is professing faith, whether or not one knows it.

 

[Bradski]

Acts without faith DO count, I believe, in both religions since, as I think the previous poster expressed, when one acts with goodness, one is professing faith, whether or not one knows it.

Faith in what?

 

[meltzerboy]

Faith in what?

Either faith in the existence and goodness of G-d or faith in the exercise of moral values by one’s behavior toward others. The latter is the essence of what G-d commanded us to do.

 

[Bradski]

Either faith in the existence and goodness of G-d or faith in the exercise of moral values by one’s behavior toward others. The latter is the essence of what G-d commanded us to do.

I’d like to think that the first one includes the second. I wouldn’t want anyone doing the right thing just because they had faith in the existence of God.

‘Why did you do that?’
‘Because I have faith in the existence of God’.

‘Why did you do that?’
‘Because I felt it was the right thing to do’.

Which do you prefer?

 

[meltzerboy]

I’d like to think that the first one includes the second. I wouldn’t want anyone doing the right thing just because they had faith in the existence of God.

‘Why did you do that?’
‘Because I have faith in the existence of God’.

‘Why did you do that?’
‘Because I felt it was the right thing to do’.

Which do you prefer?

I referred not only to the existence of G-d but also the goodness of G-d. Since we are made in G-d’s image, we too have goodness, and that goodness is revealed by how we treat others. The behavior we exhibit toward others is thus a reflection of our likeness to G-d. IOW, the two statements are not separate but interconnected.