Why do some people prefer to be atheists?

[Jelrak_TB]

Huh?

A person who does not believe in a god can still find an “objective” purpose, or a purpose that is “shared”.
Following the wisdom of the great philosophers of the world, for example, combines both external and internal sources.
And if a person does have a so-called personal, subjective purpose…it can still be shared, and it can hold lasting benefits and “allure” to that person and those around them.
Let’s say, for example, one has a purpose to become a doctor and to heal people…the fate is not only “interior”…it affects many. And it is far temporary.

And…even if a person gets their purpose from an external source, like a god…their resources can still be and are often constrained.

.

If an individual has the means to achieve some given purpose or aim while here on Earth, well and good: he may attain his purpose, whatever it may be. However if an individual is constrained by a lack of finances, time, and/or health, then no amount of rationalization will relieve him of the fact that his life has failed to arrive at a meaningful goal…insofar as he is the judge of his own trajectory.

Further, not all individuals might become doctors even should they so desire…not all individuals might become anything of any great moment…

Finally, with life terminating at death, no matter how great a purpose one may have achieved, all becomes meaningless upon one’s final breath. Therefore no pursuit, regardless of how grand it may appear, might necessarily be worth the effort…for it is all temporary. Life and its pursuits appear to be little more than a great effort to perfectly arrange the furniture moments before the wrecking ball arrives to level one’s home in favor of a supermarket.

The difference between having an objective versus a subjective purpose is the difference between being an actual hero versus merely imagining what such a thing might be like during a moment of excess leisure.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

I guess if you have subscribed to a particular belief, then it is, at the time, a positive for you. It must add something to your life. And if you then realise that you have maybe backed the wrong horse, losing your faith might leave a gap that feels like it needs to be filled. And atheism isn’t something concrete or specific that is likely to be able to do that. Atheism is simply shorthand for saying something along the lines of: ‘By the way, I have come to the conclusion that I don’t believe in gods’.

I know that a lot of people get a lot of joy in believing in God. But I can’t say I wake up every morning and think ‘Yes! What a wonderful day to not believe in gods…’

It is something a great deal more pragmatic than this…for example, if one was at one time fairly wealthy, but believed strongly in God, a temptation to divest one’s self of Earthly treasures in favor of Heavenly gain might appeal…yet a discovery later on that no such Heavenly goal truly exists will render one’s past sacrifices moot.

Further, if one cements one’s self into a marriage based on a mutually strong and orthodox faith, only to subsequently lose one’s belief in God, one is still married to a strong and faith-filled partner. If one has no other true interests in common apart from the original faith, this relationship necessarily lacks either harmony or depth.

These types of scenarios greet one who has arrived too late at a realization of loss of faith.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . yet a discovery later on that no such Heavenly goal truly exists will render one’s past sacrifices moot. . . . If one has no other true interests in common apart from the original faith, this relationship necessarily lacks either harmony or depth.
These types of scenarios greet one who has arrived too late at a realization of loss of faith.

Let me get into that head-space:

Would it really matter what greets one? All sacrifices are moot without some purpose.
The rich-to-rags person will end up the same as the rags-to-riches one millisecond after he dies.
The person who gave his wealth away would be in better shape, if it matters the good he did with his money.
As to relationships, if they are not founded in a commited love, just move on to the next - a waste of time either way.

That felt rather pointless, lol.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Let me get into that head-space:

Would it really matter what greets one? All sacrifices are moot without some purpose.
The rich-to-rags person will end up the same as the rags-to-riches one millisecond after he dies.
The person who gave his wealth away would be in better shape, if it matters the good he did with his money.
As to relationships, if they are not founded in a commited love, just move on to the next - a waste of time either way.

That felt rather pointless, lol.

It matters to the one…particularly given a finite life span…yet equally it does not matter given that nothing truly matters in a larger sense.

To clarify, it clearly matters on a subjective scale…yet it has no objective value.

The latter is cold comfort to one experiencing such events…indeed such knowledge perhaps even exacerbates the situation.

 

[rose_kelly]

To answer your question, in short, in my opinion, I believe with absolute certainty that the whole reason why people turn to atheism, is because of the faults of people in organized religions, particularly the umbrella of Christianity, and Islam; yes this includes Catholicism too. No matter what, either you have it, or you don’t; either one believes in God, or one does not believe in God, hence, as human beings we should accept to live with that fact. There is no easy answer for your question, there is a lot of complexity involved in your concern, many things to consider.

Many things to consider I will agree with. But stating the whole reason is because of the faults of people in organised religion I do not, because if that’s the “whole reason” they have turned to atheism then I would question whether they really are atheists?

 

[tonyrey]

Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had just quoted Chesterton.

“The atheist looks for God like the thief looks for a policeman” (obviously not wanting to find one).

A beauty! We are all well aware belief imposes obligations on us which may be unwelcome but it also imposes obligations on others which makes all the difference to our lives. "If God does not exist, everything is permissible."

 

[tonyrey]

Many things to consider I will agree with. But stating the whole reason is because of the faults of people in organised religion I do not, because if that’s the “whole reason” they have turned to atheism then I would question whether they really are atheists?

They may well be atheists but for a wrong reason! It amounts to blaming the Creator for what His creatures do - and implying free will is a curse rather than a blessing…

 

[Aloysium]

It matters to the one…particularly given a finite life span…yet equally it does not matter given that nothing truly matters in a larger sense.

To clarify, it clearly matters on a subjective scale…yet it has no objective value.

The latter is cold comfort to one experiencing such events…indeed such knowledge perhaps even exacerbates the situation.

Let’s say that some people prefer atheism because it makes sense to them.

:tiphat: puts on Atheist hat

Given a “finite life span”, nothing matters.
As you say it matters to oneself, but I would argue that it does so only in the sense that phantom limb pain matters.
It means nothing ultimately to have riches, pleasure and honour, because as you say they are not objectively real; they belong to a world which is transient, illusory and unfulfilling.
Ultimately, their fulfillment or lack there of, is mere sensation.

When the man gives away his riches and then regrets it, the regret would be as deep as his subjectivity.
Potentially a microsecond away from oblivion; something to feel bad about only as long as one feels bad about it.
There is no objective value to any of it, so it does not matter - be happy . . . or not.

As to losing a common interest with one’s spouse.
If one cares only about that interest and not for the other, one has lost nothing with the break up.
Be happy, move on. . . or not. Do what you want; it does not matter.

Even Freddy Nietzsche with his focus on power - how self-limiting?
One tyrrant over oneself replaced by another.
None of it matters; win, lose, servant, master - one misplaced step and poof . . . all gone.

Thinking about doing it for posterity will mean nothing, once you are gone.
If the value is self-created and you are gone, it does not matter; and it never really did.
One may identify with those remaining, but even then, they will all disappear, replaced by oblivion.
The entire universe will collapse or spread itself out into a frozen skeletal structure, devoid of light. Nothing matters.

takes off atheist hat :tiphat:

:tiphat: puts on Zen hat

The Gateless Gate is a collection of koans, the first being “Joshu’s Dog”:
A monk asked his Zen master, “Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?” The Master answered, “Wú”
The word wu or mu, meaning “nothing” is described as “the gate to enlightenment”.

There’s no point giving away the punchline.
Curiouser and curiouser this all gets, down the rabbit hole. View attachment 22760

Cheer up btw - it’s all good. Be charitable; do your best. This is one amazing trip, for sure.

I could get into the Catholic stuff, but that would be derailing the thread.

 

[meltzerboy]

Let’s say that some people prefer atheism because it makes sense to them.

:tiphat: puts on Atheist hat

Given a “finite life span”, nothing matters.
As you say it matters to oneself, but I would argue that it does so only in the sense that phantom limb pain matters.
It means nothing ultimately to have riches, pleasure and honour, because as you say they are not objectively real; they belong to a world which is transient, illusory and unfulfilling.
Ultimately, their fulfillment or lack there of, is mere sensation.

When the man gives away his riches and then regrets it, the regret would be as deep as his subjectivity.
Potentially a microsecond away from oblivion; something to feel bad about only as long as one feels bad about it.
There is no objective value to any of it, so it does not matter - be happy . . . or not.

As to losing a common interest with one’s spouse.
If one cares only about that interest and not for the other, one has lost nothing with the break up.
Be happy, move on. . . or not. Do what you want; it does not matter.

Even Freddy Nietzsche with his focus on power - how self-limiting?
One tyrrant over oneself replaced by another.
None of it matters; win, lose, servant, master - one misplaced step and poof . . . all gone.

Thinking about doing it for posterity will mean nothing, once you are gone.
If the value is self-created and you are gone, it does not matter; and it never really did.
One may identify with those remaining, but even then, they will all disappear, replaced by oblivion.
The entire universe will collapse or spread itself out into a frozen skeletal structure, devoid of light. Nothing matters.

takes off atheist hat :tiphat:

:tiphat: puts on Zen hat

The Gateless Gate is a collection of koans, the first being “Joshu’s Dog”:
A monk asked his Zen master, “Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?” The Master answered, “Wú”
The word wu or mu, meaning “nothing” is described as “the gate to enlightenment”.

There’s no point giving away the punchline.
Curiouser and curiouser this all gets, down the rabbit hole. View attachment 22760

Cheer up btw - it’s all good. Be charitable; do your best. This is one amazing trip, for sure.

I could get into the Catholic stuff, but that would be derailing the thread.

Chapeaux bas!

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Let’s say that some people prefer atheism because it makes sense to them.

And for those who might prefer theism, but find only atheism makes sense…?

:tiphat: puts on Atheist hat

Given a “finite life span”, nothing matters.
As you say it matters to oneself, but I would argue that it does so only in the sense that phantom limb pain matters.
It means nothing ultimately to have riches, pleasure and honour, because as you say they are not objectively real; they belong to a world which is transient, illusory and unfulfilling.
Ultimately, their fulfillment or lack there of, is mere sensation.

Naturally this only applies to the broad view of ‘what matters,’ for the atheist monitors each physical slight keenly as that is all there is…so if he is going without food or heat or is otherwise in discomfort as a result of a past decision all of such difficulties are indeed all that matters…

When the man gives away his riches and then regrets it, the regret would be as deep as his subjectivity.
Potentially a microsecond away from oblivion; something to feel bad about only as long as one feels bad about it.
There is no objective value to any of it, so it does not matter - be happy . . . or not.

As to losing a common interest with one’s spouse.
If one cares only about that interest and not for the other, one has lost nothing with the break up.
Be happy, move on. . . or not. Do what you want; it does not matter.

One might not pursue mere happiness, but perhaps instead proceed along lines of least disruption…for is rejecting a loving spouse simply due to a disparate philosophical outlook guaranteed to bring happiness? Certainly the status quo is fairly lonesome on a scale of depth, but is being truly alone (in body as well as spirit) to be considered an improved state? Further, if children might be present is there not also potentially a consideration for their welfare…?

Even Freddy Nietzsche with his focus on power - how self-limiting?
One tyrrant over oneself replaced by another.
None of it matters; win, lose, servant, master - one misplaced step and poof . . . all gone.

Thinking about doing it for posterity will mean nothing, once you are gone.
If the value is self-created and you are gone, it does not matter; and it never really did.
One may identify with those remaining, but even then, they will all disappear, replaced by oblivion.
The entire universe will collapse or spread itself out into a frozen skeletal structure, devoid of light. Nothing matters.

Indeed…on an objective scale…

takes off atheist hat :tiphat:

:tiphat: puts on Zen hat

The Gateless Gate is a collection of koans, the first being “Joshu’s Dog”:
A monk asked his Zen master, “Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?” The Master answered, “Wú”
The word wu or mu, meaning “nothing” is described as “the gate to enlightenment”.

There’s no point giving away the punchline.
Curiouser and curiouser this all gets, down the rabbit hole. View attachment 22760

Cheer up btw - it’s all good. Be charitable; do your best. This is one amazing trip, for sure.

I could get into the Catholic stuff, but that would be derailing the thread.

Cheering up is an abject difficulty…for there is nothing within grasp that might be capable of bringing with it such positive feeling. To merely look forward to the end of each successive day hardly suggests a net positive is at play…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

To answer your question, in short, in my opinion, I believe with absolute certainty that the whole reason why people turn to atheism, is because of the faults of people in organized religions, particularly the umbrella of Christianity, and Islam; yes this includes Catholicism too. .

The difference between atheists and Christians is that Christians admit they are sinners.

So logically the reason Christians become atheists is that they don’t want to be sinners?

 

[Bradski]

It means nothing ultimately to have riches, pleasure and honour, because as you say they are not objectively real; they belong to a world which is transient, illusory and unfulfilling. Ultimately, their fulfillment or lack there of, is mere sensation.

Riches? Quite possibly. Although having enough to live comfortably is certainly a good thing. But that is itself relative. What you would describe as wealthy and what you would describe as comfortable and how you would personally correlate the two is a matter for you. And therefore relative. Does that make it meaningless? Well, not to you. Or to me.

Pleasure? Mmm. Well, unless you prefer staring at a blank wall as opposed to watching a good film or reading a good book or contemplating a great piece of art, then you actively seek pleasure on a daily basis. When was the last time you said: ‘I enjoyed that’. Whatever it was, it was relative to you. There is no objective pleasure.

Never taken your wife out for a good meal? Never booked a room at a nice hotel? Never had a holiday? Never had really great cold beer after working in the garden? All transient pleasures that we all enjoy, whether believers or not. To say they are meaningless is to imply that they are not worth having.

Likewise family and friends. They bring meaning to each life. I don’t love my wife and my kids less than you love yours because you believe in God. They don’t mean less to me because I don’t believe in Him. Do you contend that my feelings for them are illusory whilst yours are somehow more real? Are you suggesting that love is unfulfilling if you don’t believe in the Christian God?

This sort of nonsense always comes across to me as a frustration. ‘I believe in God and therefore I am fulfilled. My life has meaning. You don’t, so it is impossible for you to have the same.’ Then there is an absolute refusal to accept any comment to the contrary.

Maybe if you think I have less than you, then what you believe you have may seem to be worth more.

 

[Bradski]

The difference between atheists and Christians is that Christians admit they are sinners.

So logically the reason Christians become atheists is that they don’t want to be sinners?

The concept of sin doesn’t exist for an atheist. So we never sin. However, we are just as angry, jealous, miserly, small minded, cruel, lazy and bad mannered as any given Christian. If you have all the usual moral defects that plague each one of us then losing your faith in God just means that you class them as moral defects as opposed to sins.

Doesn’t really change much. Just the terminology.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

The difference between atheists and Christians is that Christians admit they are sinners.

So logically the reason Christians become atheists is that they don’t want to be sinners?

It would appear to be a very strange pathway for a believer, who merely might wish to no longer be held accountable for sins, to choose as a solution to suddenly declare a disbelief in God.

Seemingly it would be more consistent for such a one to merely convince him/herself that God does not care quite as much about such sins…

Essentially such a one might readily choose from among several current Protestant denominations to cure him/herself of such an apparent dilemma…

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had just quoted Chesterton.

“The atheist looks for God like the thief looks for a policeman” (obviously not wanting to find one).

I can only imagine this to be true for some given that I have heard them say such a thing…but I cannot for the life of me imagine how one could honestly seek out a means to not seek out that which one was allegedly originally seeking…essentially it is dishonest by all standards and accomplishes little more than wish fulfillment.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . the atheist monitors each physical slight keenly as that is all there is…so if he is going without food or heat or is otherwise in discomfort as a result of a past decision all of such difficulties are indeed all that matters …

What I get from this is that all we have is the moment, which exists in time and is where we make decisions which affect our future moments, as this moment has been determined, and is now set in stone, from what we have done in the past.

The moment, which exists whole, here and now, itself without beginning or end, but with its past present and future, is the site of who we are and what we do.

What may prompt the atheist to monitor his physical status so keenly has to do with the belief that the moment, which in its timelessness contains all that changes, has an end.
Maybe, foolishly I would say, the person is deeply attached to the transient. That does all end, we are in agreement.

From my Catholic perspective, the moment over time constitutes the potential journey that becomes the Way to transcendence in Christ, the becoming of our true Self, transformed through the shedding of the sinner, ultimately leading to communion with the eternal Godhead, from which we spring.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

The difference between atheists and Christians is that Christians admit they are sinners.

So logically the reason Christians become atheists is that they don’t want to be sinners?

Or they’re unable to believe?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Or they’re unable to believe?

Everyone is able to believe, just as some are able not to believe.

Some are just unwilling.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It would appear to be a very strange pathway for a believer, who merely might wish to no longer be held accountable for sins, to choose as a solution to suddenly declare a disbelief in God.

Strange indeed, but perhaps not so strange for those who are not authentic Christians.

And there may well be more of those than we suspect.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The concept of sin doesn’t exist for an atheist. So we never sin. However, we are just as angry, jealous, miserly, small minded, cruel, lazy and bad mannered as any given Christian. If you have all the usual moral defects that plague each one of us then losing your faith in God just means that you class them as moral defects as opposed to sins.

Doesn’t really change much. Just the terminology.

It changes a great deal. Without God men are able to sink lower than the animals.

We’ve already found the godless way to annihilate millions in one moment with one trigger.