Why do some Protestant churches prohibit the drinking of wine

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YOU FIND THIS IN JOHN 1 WHAT olease let me see it
I believe there is some confusion on who the scriptures are referecing in Luke 1. Read in context, the Angel Gabriel is speaking about John the Baptist.

**Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zachary, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elizabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame.
Luk 1:7 And they had no son, for that Elizabeth was barren: and they both were well advanced in years.
Luk 1:8 And it came to pass, when he executed the priestly function in the order of his course before God,
Luk 1:9 According to the custom of the priestly office, it was his lot to offer incense, going into the temple of the Lord.
Luk 1:10 And all the multitude of the people was praying without, at the hour of incense.
Luk 1:11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
Luk 1:12 And Zachary seeing him, was troubled: and fear fell upon him.
Luk 1:13 But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard: and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son. And thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness: and many shall rejoice in his nativity.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. **

Later in Luke, the Lord spoke the following, which confirms the above was referencing John the Baptist:

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine. And you say: He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking. And you say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a drinker of wine, a friend of publicans and sinners.
 
Conerning wine vs. grape juice in Communion:
I heard an evangelical (non denominational) pastor explain it this way:
In Biblical times, the word “wine” was used for actual wine and the non-alcholic version-grape juice. So seeing wine in the Bible could mean either.
For the original Passover, the Hebrews were instructed to remove all yeast from their home. Wine (in the alcoholic sense) contains yeast.

I don’t know anything about wine or alcohol (other than I think I accidently made vodka by not doing dishes in a timely manner and having fermenting potatoes in my sink…ewwww)

Concerning the alleged “ban” of alcohol:
The Protestant/Evangelical circles that I ran around in awknowledged that in Jesus’ day, drinking wine/alcohol occured, even by Jesus himself. The issue with alcohol in modern American society is with appearances and perceptions. It is considered “not Christian” by most in our society and to see Christians drinking could undermine the credibility of Christians to non-believers. Very often, a Christian will be labeled a hypocrite if he is seen drinking alcohol and this could undermine their evanelizing efforts.

Furthermore, considering alcoholism, binge drinking, drunk driving and other evils that come with abuses of alcohol, the evangelical thinks that their drinking could be a stumbling block for someone else who has trouble with alcohol abuse.
It is true that all yeast is removed from a kosher Jewish household over the Passover time. I’ve been to a kosher Jewish home for a real Passover seder and I can attest to the various customs from first hand experience. However, wine does not involve using yeast. (Beer does, maybe that’s the source of the confusion?)

I understand the concern about not wanting to cause your brother to “stumble”, and some persons, seeing another consume a glass of wine, would take that as permission to consume a bottle or two. That assumed permission is where the problem lies. Ttemperance is also part of following Christ ~ temperance not in the sense of abstaining but in the sense of moderation. Wine is acceptable as a beverage and those that say Jesus never drank wine are incorrect. However, drunkeness is not acceptable because that is intemperate. Jesus never suggested intemperance and there is no record of His being drunk.

It is fallacious to impose our modern thinking, and even our modern social customs, on those who lived thousands of years ago.
 
Even drunkenness is a matter of moderation. Drinking to the point of merriness is not forbidden.
Give strong drink to him who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty,
and remember their misery no more.
Prov 31:6-7 (RSV)
And at the wedding at Cana there is a hint of having a buzz on.
“Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” (John 2:10 RSV)
This hints that it was normal to keep the poor wine until the guests wouldn’t notice the difference.

What the many verses in the Bible seem to be against is alcoholic-type drinking. I recognize all the descriptions of the results. Since I got sober, I’ve always loved Prov 23:29-35. An excellent description of a binge!

The point about being a stumbling block is a good one. I get irked with Catholics who tell sober alkies that it’s OK to receive the Blood because it’s Jesus and not wine. It still has the “accidents” of wine, which includes the alcohol.

Love,

Ruthie
 
Why do you assume that if Jesus drank, He must have “got a buzz” on? This is very inappropriate and strange.
People drink alcohol because it is a mind-altering drug. People excuse their use of such mind altering drugs by claiming that Christ also used such mind altering drugs.

Sure - it is possible drink so little alcohol that it doesn’t affect you much - but some people can become legally drunk (driving) after as little as a small glass of wine. The deleterious physiological effects begin with very small amounts.
 
At communion it is just a sip…hardly enough to “get a buzz” so to speak. The prohabition against alcoholism comes from extreme legalism.
 
Something that is missing from this discussion is safety. Today, at least in the USA and the developed world, such things as clean, safe drinking water are taken for granted. That was not always true. In the time period of Jesus, wine was often a SAFER beverage than water. We cannot look at ancient practice through the prism of modern day experiences and get any sort of accurate understanding.

And I don’t know about the rest of the Catholics on the forum, but I find the repeated references to Jesus drinking wine and “getting a buzz” and such concepts being associated with the Holy Eucharist to be derisive, disrespectful and blasphemous. It needs to stop. It is a direct violation of the rules of this forum, and that’s the smallest of the problems with it, but it will do for a start.
 
At communion it is just a sip…hardly enough to “get a buzz” so to speak. The prohabition against alcoholism comes from extreme legalism.
Agreed. Communion is a different deal.

I don’t drink alcohol but did have a sip last time I attended an Episcopal church.

If someone is going to assert that wine is a good thing only for communion, okay. If there are going to try and excuse their recreational use of mind altering drugs on biblical grounds - I think that’s a horrible argument.

However, I don’t think that someone, not LDS, is a big sinner because they use such legal drugs. I am more interested the arguments they use to self-justify. LDS members are a different deal as we hold or ourselves, or seek to hold ourselves to a different standard.
 
People drink alcohol because it is a mind-altering drug. People excuse their use of such mind altering drugs by claiming that Christ also used such mind altering drugs.

Sure - it is possible drink so little alcohol that it doesn’t affect you much - but some people can become legally drunk (driving) after as little as a small glass of wine. The deleterious physiological effects begin with very small amounts.
Brother, we Christians are given both the taste and rousing affect of alcohol to enjoy moderately in Christian liberty. People do not drink it because it is a mind-altering drug, they drink it because it is a blessed gift from God that is permissible in Christ Jesus. Read your Bible!
 
I do have a drink once in a great while. For me last time was July 4th…I think. There are arguments to be made for a cglass of wine a day, but using the Bible is not the way to do it, but medical research is. I believe the key is to avoid drunkeness. Having a drink now and again and being a drunkard ore not the same.
 
I think drinking is ok, if you do it in moderation. I have had times where I lacked in moderation, and got drunk, but thats cause I am an imbisile at parties.

I would drink wine, not grape juice, even though I am not a Catholic.
 
People drink alcohol because it is a mind-altering drug. People excuse their use of such mind altering drugs by claiming that Christ also used such mind altering drugs.

Sure - it is possible drink so little alcohol that it doesn’t affect you much - but some people can become legally drunk (driving) after as little as a small glass of wine. The deleterious physiological effects begin with very small amounts.
I drink alcohol because I like the taste. Undoubtedly I have over done it on occasion, but more often than not I am able to drink in moderation and enjoy the taste. I find your statement that “People drink alcohol because it is a mind-altering drug” pious and sanctimonious. Because you do not drink does that make you feel significantly superior to those of us who do?
 
If you believe that Christ, the omnipotent God used to get a buzz on, okay, that’s what you believe. Myself - it seems not particularly Godlike.
And I don’t know about the rest of the Catholics on the forum, but I find the repeated references to Jesus drinking wine and “getting a buzz” and such concepts being associated with the Holy Eucharist to be derisive, disrespectful and blasphemous. It needs to stop. It is a direct violation of the rules of this forum, and that’s the smallest of the problems with it, but it will do for a start.
I was offended, but only one person made the remark “to get a buzz on.” I think Snow demonstrates an example of a Man-Made Tradition in which scripture is misinterpreted and/or manipulated to rationalize the “do not drink” position.
 
I hope these comments will help you to understand the heart of a total abstainer. You don’t have to agree. Just try to understand, OK?

I don’t drink. Ever. No one in my family drinks. Ever.

I don’t like to be around people who drink. The smell is sickening. Last week I attended an Arthur Murray dance party (for guests–my husband and I are considering taking some ballroom dancing lessons). They offered wine–no soft drinks or water or milk. People were drinking wine to “loosen up.” I found the smell very off-putting and even though the people weren’t drunk, they were all acting silly and giggly. I didn’t enjoy myself at all. I prefer to be around people who are not “loose.” I found it strange that people needed to “loosen up” to learn a skill. I wondered if they have to “loosen up” to learn a new skill in their workplaces or homes.

My husband and I are taking private lessons in the future. I don’t want to be in that situation again. It makes me feel very uncomfortable. I just want to learn to dance, not learn to party. And I want to be around sensible people who don’t need to loosen up to move their feet in a pattern to music.

I don’t like going out to dinner with people when there is alcohol consumption. I don’t trust the people when they are drinking. I’m never sure just how “loose” they really are. I don’t like having conversations with people who are silly or “loose.” I like serious, deep conversations, or fun conversations that I know that everyone will remember the next day. I’m never sure of myself with “buzzed” people. I feel awkward and uncomfortable. And it smells bad.

Drinking was The Major Stumbling Block for me to enter the Catholic Church. Seriously. It wasn’t Mary or the saints or the True Presence or the Pope or any of those issues–it was drinking. I wish with all my heart that Catholics didn’t drink and that church functions didn’t feature alcohol. I wish that the Church didn’t allow drinking alcohol at all, but I realize that there are only about two other people in all of history who agree with me. I will always be left out of many Catholic social situations. And that’s OK. I accept that . I would rather be alone than be in situations where people are drinking.

I miss church socials with Christians who didn’t even dream of taking a drink, and where the strongest “drink” in the room was Coke-a-Cola or iced tea or coffee. I really really LOVED those situations and felt totally comfortable and safe and had so much fun. I miss them. I feel that since becoming Catholic, I have become much more sequestered socially. I do a lot of piano playing in the Church (I don’t have to loosen up to play piano), but I don’t socialize with people much at all. An occasional covered dish supper at the end of a semester of Bible study. That’s about it. We suggested a party once at our house to our RCIA group–right away, several people said, “Well, if you have enough wine and beer, we’ll be there.” And we said, “Sorry, there won’t be any wine or beer at our house ever.” And that was the end of that.

I only tell you this because I want you to realize that it HURTS to feel so left out. I feel like a strange visitor from another planet at Catholic social functions. So I don’t go to the ones that feature alcohol. Pancake breakfasts are good. Dinners–no.

In my novels, people drink. But not much. And the hero and heroine (both Catholic) don’t drink at all. I like my novels better than real life. 😦

The Catholic Church is worth losing all my friends over. Jesus is worth it. But it still is lonely for us. Please try to understand and don’t just lash out and tell me how stupid and oppressed I am, OK? Thank you.

You can criticize me and other non-Catholic Christians all you want and tell me that I am a legalist or self-righteous or repressed or oppressed or judgemental or whatever adjective you wish. It won’t make a difference in my POV, and it will only increase the barriers between us.

I accept that the Bible does not teach total abstinence. I agree with you that Jesus and His disciples probably drank wine with meals. I agree that people can drink moderately (although woe and sorrow to the poor souls who CANNOT drink moderately and end up as alcoholics. God have mercy on them and their families.) I agree that moderate drinking is NOT a sin.

I agree with you all and I agree with the Church–with my intellect. I accept it all. I won’t argue with you, except to say that no one ever dies in a Pepsi-related auto accident. Think about that. A lot of “buzzed” people end up killing innocent people on the highways.

But in my heart and soul, I believe that alcohol is totally unnecessary to having a happy life. I don’t need it and I don’t want it and I wish that other people felt the same way.

Again, I hope that this helps you to have a better understanding of the tee-totalling person. I don’t expect you to agree.
 
I grew up in a fundamentalist church that to this day strongly opposes any use of alcohol. It never made any sense to me at all, especially in the light of stories in the Bible. A friend once told me that many people substitute personal feelings for sound religious doctrine. I think this is such a case.

Long before I crossed the Tiber, I was in a house that was under construction. There was a set of set of doors that appeared to be of a closet. The man opened the doors to show that they hid a bar, something he could conceal when people affiliated with his church were at the house. Such was the double life we led.

We were taught that the miracle of turning water into wine was really turning water into grape juice, never mind some other indicators in that story. It seemed to me that anything that could be fun was immediately suspect. Movies were all bad; television was evil; dancing was a path to Hell; rock music was of Satan, etc. Maybe it was something to give the elders power over the church members or maybe they really felt threatened by those things. I never had the gift of understanding the logic of making normal things evil. The abuse of those things, yes, but not moderation.
I grew up in a town that was mostly Protestant, and so I heard every reason under the sun for not consuming alcohol. And any time one would try to argue that it’s something Jesus did, probably on more than the two occasions I can currently bring to mind (it’s been a long day) they would come back with the grape juice argument, saying that in those days, they simply called grape juice wine, and one couldn’t get drunk by consuming too much of it. Then you would ask them about Paul saying not to give in to drunken-ness, and they went on to tell you that it was symbolic of over indulging in anything.
Don’t even get me started about being the only kid at my junior high dances doing the running man to Ice Ice Baby.:egyptian:
 
Hey Cat, I live in the very buckle of the “Church Belt”. I grew up in a Bible Church which was very Calvinist and went to a Baptist high school. (That tension is for another thread altogether)

I completely understand where you are coming from. In fact, up until I went to college, most everyone I knew came from the same viewpoint.

Just so you know where I’m coming from, I’ll confess that I am an occasional drinker. Maybe 3 or 4 times a month. I know from very personal experience how alcohol can ruin lives and families.

All that being said, I’ll try to give you the other side. Sometimes people get defensive when they are accused of “needing a drink to have a good time.” Most people don’t look at it that way. If they do, then they probably shouldn’t be drinking in the first place. I think its really a cultural thing. Today, a person can go their whole life and never take a sip of alcohol (and be perfectly happy). It just hasn’t been that way for very long.

Alcohol is not “bad” in and of itself anymore than a Big Mac is “bad”. It’s what people do with them that matters. Everyone sees life in the light of their own preconceptions. Yours are just different than those other people who have different attitudes toward alcohol. Neither point of view is inherently wrong.
 
I was offended, but only one person made the remark “to get a buzz on.” I think Snow demonstrates an example of a Man-Made Tradition in which scripture is misinterpreted and/or manipulated to rationalize the “do not drink” position.
I don’t read Snow’s posts but some of what he/she writes is quoted or referenced in other posts. So if he/she was the one that started the business of the “buzz” then shame on him/her for maligning Our Lord and the Holy Eucharist in such a way.

I have no interest in analyzing Snow but I do have an interest in defending Jesus and the Holy Eucharist. It is indefensible that such descriptions would be made about Jesus and the Holy Eucharist by anyone.
 
I drink alcohol because I like the taste. Undoubtedly I have over done it on occasion, but more often than not I am able to drink in moderation and enjoy the taste. I find your statement that “People drink alcohol because it is a mind-altering drug” pious and sanctimonious. Because you do not drink does that make you feel significantly superior to those of us who do?
Superior? No, probably not superior, but different perhaps.

There are those that take mind-altering drugs and there are those that don’t.
 
I was offended, but only one person made the remark “to get a buzz on.” I think Snow demonstrates an example of a Man-Made Tradition in which scripture is misinterpreted and/or manipulated to rationalize the “do not drink” position.
To be fair - and I think you should try to be fair - I did misinterpret a scripture, I was informed about it, and I apologized. So for you to claim that I am misinterpreting or manipulating is pretty inaccurate. You know that I apologized and corrected my misinterpretation since you reference it so we know that your inaccurate depiction is deliberate.
 
I think Snow demonstrates an example of a Man-Made Tradition in which scripture is misinterpreted and/or manipulated to rationalize the “do not drink” position.
I first was made aware of this man-made (begging the question fallacy) argument from a mormon when I was in high school.
  • Drinking alcohol is wrong
  • Christ would not do anything wrong
  • Therefore Christ did not drink
To be fair - and I think you should try to be fair - I did misinterpret a scripture, I was informed about it, and I apologized. So for you to claim that I am misinterpreting or manipulating is pretty inaccurate. You know that I apologized and corrected my misinterpretation since you reference it so we know that your inaccurate depiction is deliberate.
Which post are you referring to?
 
I first was made aware of this man-made (begging the question fallacy) argument from a mormon when I was in high school.
  • Drinking alcohol is wrong
  • Christ would not do anything wrong
  • Therefore Christ did not drink
This is the exact same reasoning alot of fundamentalists use
 
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