Why do some Protestants hate us so much?

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

In this way, through ignorance, I fear the Catholic church is condemning millions, if not billions to suffer for a lack of understanding the basics

This is very incautious and strong language which I am afraid only demonstrates the shakey ground on which it is based. Try coming over to the Rock and see what ‘evidence’ and ‘proof’ really is all about.

Afterburned6387:

So what about this scares me about my Catholic Friends?

Is ‘scare’ accurate?

Afterburned6387:

They spend so much time in the church doing sacrament after sacrament, stagnating in their faith

Says who? What evidence to bring to such a damaging, hurtful, and unsubstantiated allegation against your Catholic ‘Friends’? What friend would use this kind of tone with another friend?

Afterburned6387:

, and without the time they need to really go out there and SERVE, and build the kingdom of God. You know, actually doing what Christ commands?

Um, I think you have quite a large number of things to learn about what the Catholic Church does out there. It puzzles me how you could make such a statement without first checking out whether you are on the right track or lost in the woods.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

So once again, do I hate Catholics? No, not at all.

Gosh, if that’s love…

Afterburned6387:

Do I hate the Catholic Church? Well, honestly, in reading through the Catechism, the decrees of Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II, I was enraged at how the Catholic church was conducting itself, and yes, for a time I did hate the Catholic Church, but now that I’ve had time to calm down, that hatred has turned to deep disappointment and concern for my Catholic brothers.

Have you calmed down now? Yes or no please. Please do not dodge the question.

Afterburned6387:

Hopefully I speak for all protestants who research the Catholic Faith

Very timely terminology. I have been wondering about the concept of a Protestant pope lately.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

when I say, I wish to be proven wrong, and see that the Catholic church is indeed biblically accurate, and all the Catholics I know, both those I would describe as Christians and Otherwise I will see in Heaven

You’ve come to the right place. Now why do I feel a ‘but’ coming? Oh! Here it is…

but at the same time I will vigorously defend the tenets of the Faith as I understand them with the end of making more Catholics born-again, washed in the blood of Christ Believers.

First of all, Mr Afterburn, CAF has forum rules which apply to what you have just explicitly set out as a goal for your being here:

Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.

Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

Proselytizing Catholics is a banned topic.

Let me explain something to you about the word ‘but.’ The word ‘but’ used to introduce a clause negates everything that comes before that clause. So, by using the word ‘but’ you have negated the following claim “…I wish to be proven wrong, and see that the Catholic church is indeed biblically accurate, and all the Catholics I know, both those I would describe as Christians and Otherwise I will see in Heaven…”

Is that charitable? Think about it. By using the word ‘but’ the sentence requires us to understand “I do not wish to be proven wrong; I not wish to see that the Catholic Church is indeed biblically accurate; I do not wish to see all the Catholics I know, both those I would describe as Christians and otherwise in Heaven.”

Whoah!!! The next time you want to use the word ‘but’ in a sentence, think about what it does.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

While the problem with the Catholic church may be empty ritual

May? Is the problem with the Catholic Church empty ritual? Btw, how many of our rituals do you understand? If a vulnerable young person were to ask you right now to explain our rituals, would you feel confident about explaining them accurately with no fears at all about misrepresenting any of them?

Afterburned6387:

I will admit the problem with Protestants is the false notion of “Fire Insurance”

I am not following you here. Could you clarify please?

end of post

 

[VociMike]

In this way, through ignorance, I fear the Catholic church is condemning millions, if not billions to suffer for a lack of understanding the basics.

So salvation now comes through understanding the basics? Salvation comes from taking an exam?

That’s salvation by works, pure and simple.

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually, that was totally my point

.

Lecturing others for what your own is guilty of is unconvincing and hollow.

Lecturing others about why they “hate” you when your own regularly refer to others with the same rhetoric is as hollow as it gets.Yeah yeah yeah… same old same old. As soon as someone steps out of line then suddenly all the gloves come off, is that it? I don’t buy it. I don’t post on many n-C forums because generally it’s a waste of time, and I refuse to support any forum that allows and encourages the level of garbage that we get subjected to. I’ll debate with anyone…but I won’t take abuse from anyone. I shouldn’t have to in a religious discussion. If the rules allow that…I’m outta there.

And speaking of “errant intentions of proselytizing,” maybe you should discuss that wih some of our Catholic friends on CARM. They have no such qualms

.Hey if they don’t like it then they can put it in their rules. Whining and :crying: to me about it is a waste of time because you can find my posts over there and see that I don’t post there any more.

Wonderful apologetic for ad hominem and vitriol…as long as it comes from a Catholic

.Hey if you see something that violates a rule here at CAF then hit that http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/report.gifbutton and give it to the Mods. I wager they discipline more Catholics that non anyway.

What you are basically saying is that such rhetoric from an RC is acceptable because it is mostly used "accurately

."
I get it. I should have expected no different a response. Look, don’t gimme that… What I am saying is that if something is factual then so long as it’s stated without nastiness then deal with the facts or withdraw from the discussion if you can’t offer facts in support of your beliefs. This is the very same advice that I offer to Catholics here and wherever they feel led to post. But along with that I tell 'em they need not take abuse.

I justify no such behavior so don’t falsely charge me with such.

then don’t do so to me…It cuts both ways doesn’t it?

Actually, the only one that has justified such use of language is you…as long as a Catholic uses it “accurately.”

So… you see…you don’t like it when I subject your beliefs to the exact same rhetorical assertion do ya? I have never used such a phrase concerning n-C beliefs and won’t as it’s not precisely what I think and I can find far better ways to express myself without being a jerk.

So us “heretics” in our “sects” teach “dangerous false doctrine” and that is OK because a Catholic says so

and it is “accurate.”

But if a non-Catholic believes the same about Catholicism then they are suddenly “offensive.”

Like I said, I totally understand your position now.No… you don’t. You are apparently too busy trying to make me look like the bad guy because I stand you down on issues that we disagree on. You seem to want permission to say any old thing that you please and toss common courtesy and the forum rules out the airlock.

Well…I’m not interested. I’m sure we could find a board like that but I’m not that kind of person and I wouldn’t expect you to be either since you profess faith in the same Christ that I do.

Frankly, so long as n-Cs and a-Cs leave me and my family and friends alone about our Catholic faith, then I really could give a rip less what they believe and say, but when someone comes in among my brothers and sisters and I and starts running down our beliefs and does so in an offensive manner…you can bet your socks that I’m gonna step up and answer 'em eyeball to eyeball and do so with all the charity I can muster, but I have ZERO use for n-Cs and a-Cs who seek to convert my brothers and sisters away from the faith.

I’ve been one of you and I studied it all and that’s when I came home to the Catholic faith, but please, go right ahead talking all that untrue stuff about the Catholic faith because that was the key that got me digging and led me back to the faith and I know for a fact that there are quite a few others here who have had similar experiences. It’s like this…if you tell me that the Catholic Church believes something an it proves untrue, then it makes me question whether other things that you have taught me is true as well.

So…please…knock yourself out. We have room for all the converts. :clapping: :dancing: :extrahappy:

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

Your pope isn’t helping. According to him, the Roman Catholic Church is the only church, and us mere protestants are “false churches,” according to a recent document the vatican released.

If you are truly investigating what the Church actually teaches, then it might be a good idea to read Her own documents. Just a thought.

Afterburned6387:

In fact, probably the biggest reason why Catholics get a lot of heat, as opposed to the freindly discussions among protestants

The friendly discussions among Protestants? When did this happen? Since ETS President Francis Beckwith and his wife became Catholic, things on the other side of the Tiber have not looked too friendly at all. But maybe all that commotion over there was just the churning of water caused by people following Beckwith in.

Hey, the water’s warm.

Afterburned6387:

is that at the Church level (i.e. the Vatican) there is great intolerance for the protestants.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG! I’m astonished that you have said this. Where have you been? Were you not aware of our previous pope’s huge gestures of friendship toward non-Catholics? This pope was that pope’s right hand man. The first thing this pope did was an ecumenical gesture. Please! Before you say anything more, go to the source documents.

Afterburned6387:

Which is odd really, because at the same time, JPII was unusually willing to reach out to other faiths, hindus, muslims, etc. and while he didn’t say they were perfectly valid, he said they “pointed to the spiritual nature of man” and commended them for their accomplishments.

There you go. How does this ‘reaching out’ constitute ‘intolerance for Protestants’? Even your own words disagree with you.

Afterburned6387:

How about us protestants? did we get commended for our stalwart dedication to finding better interpretations of the bible?

Actually the inaccurate translations were banned.

Afterburned6387:

no, we get slammed, thrown out, and told we are a “false church.” Once again, why is this? because hindus and muslims will say to the Catholic Church, “you have your deal, we have ours,” where as the protestants say “we have our deal, its actually your deal, but without you” and we face rejection.

This doesn’t make sense to me. I am just not following you here. What is the difference between what Hindus are saying and what Protestants are saying? As for rejection, that is inaccurate.

Afterburned6387:

I wish we could just accept there are differences, but that we will all see one another in heaven.

What’s stopping you? We’re fine with that. We not only have Baptism of Water, we have Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood, and Invincible Ignorance. On the subject of getting to Heaven we’re actually pretty open. Can you say the same?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

Wonderful apologetic for ad hominem and vitriol…as long as it comes from a Catholic.

Could you please point out the ad hominem? (You know folks sometimes it is really hard to follow what some of you are saying because you refer to something without quoting it or without providing a line of reasoning.)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ahhh. I see.

So us “heretics” in our “sects” teach “dangerous false doctrine” and that is OK because a Catholic says so and it is “accurate.”

But if a non-Catholic believes the same about Catholicism then they are suddenly “offensive.”

Like I said, I totally understand your position now…

And I do not totally understand your position because you make claims without telling us what specific things you are talking about. Do you want people to be able to understand what you are saying? If so, please give us enough information to see what it is you are talking about. OK? Thank you.

 

[Church_Militant]

The exact quote is
“According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense”
[vatican.va/roman_curia /congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia /congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html)

If we are not part of the Catholic Church, If we cannot enjoy the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper legitimately, then how can we be saved? in the Catholic sense? Especially if the statement reiterated throughout church history is correct, that “There is no salvation outside of the Church” (meaning the RCC)Well here…You’ll like this news that came from Zenit in Rome.

Vatican Official: Ecumenism Needs Truth
ARANJUEZ, Spain, JULY 25, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The secretary of the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation emphasized again that the dicastery’s recent document on the doctrine of the Church is an aid to ecumenism.

Salesian Archbishop Angelo Amato of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith spoke with journalists Tuesday in Spain, before giving a conference on Benedict XVI’s book, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

The archbishop said that “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church,” as the document was called, is “very positive” for ecumenism because it gives a “precise identity to the Catholic Church.”

“Ecumenism is based on truth and the identity of the interlocutors,” he affirmed.

The prelate denied that Protestants were “vexed” by the document: “They know that this is our identity and it is not the first time that the congregation has made these affirmations.”

The archbishop observed that the document repeats what the Second Vatican Council had already said. He further recalled the 2000 document, “Dominus Iesus,” which also detailed the same doctrine.

“The Church of Christ exists in history,” he added. “It is a concrete historical reality, which searches for unity, through ecumenical dialogue, with all the other expressions.”

If you see the validity of the Eucharistic Real Presence and understand the scriptures that pertain to them, then you must consider whether you are wise to remain outside in the Catholic Church.

That’s all that we ask. Get the facts and decide for yourself.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi Afterburn;

This is a very interesting thread. I thank you for posting it. I think the main misconception from Protestants looking in on Catholics is that we follow a Church…a Pope…and not Jesus, Himself. Jesus is the Head of the Church–but in determining who would continue to preach the faith so to speak, as a human ‘head’ of the Church, He chose Peter. Can you have a body and not a head? No. You wouldn’t get very far in life if you didn’t have a head. The Protestant faith has no head. So, it roams and branches and breaks off into thousands of denominations…some agree…some don’t.

The important thing to take away is that the Pope is a successor to Peter…I mean, this is what I believe. The Pope doesn’t teach anything that is not found in the Bible. Jesus gave His authority to Peter. Yes, some of the early church fathers abused their power and authority. If a tree bears bad fruit…do you cut down the whole tree, or just trim those branches not producing? Same thing applies. Luther departed from the RCC…started his own faith. Now, we have some thousands of denominations now on earth.

Jesus always wanted unity. Man didn’t.

And regarding being self absorbed…God wants us to be the best we can be…holy. His only concern is to lead us to Heaven. Sure there are go through the motion Catholics…there are also go through the motion Protestants.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Afterburned6387:

The exact quote is
“According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

Do you understand this? If a vulnerable young person were to ask you to explain this, would you be able to provide an accurate explanation without misrepresenting what the Church actually teaches on this?

Afterburned6387:

If we are not part of the Catholic Church, If we cannot enjoy the Eucharist/Lord’s Supper legitimately, then how can we be saved? in the Catholic sense?

Easy. Why didn’t you ask sooner? Depending on your circumstances you can have a Baptism of Water, Desire, or Blood, or simply be in a state of Invincible Ignorance.

Afterburned6387:

Especially if the statement reiterated throughout church history is correct, that “There is no salvation outside of the Church” (meaning the RCC)

Do you understand what this means? From the context of your sentence I would venture that you do not. If a vulnerable young person were to ask you to explain ‘no salvation outside the Church’ to him/her, would you be able to provide an accurate explanation without misrepresenting what the Church actually teaches on ‘no salvation outside the Church’?

Afterburned6387:

Also, I would ask for any scriptural evidence for the existence of a sacramental preisthood after the second testament.

Sure. Start a new thread and we will provide you with scriptural evidence.

Afterburned6387:

and no, he is not my Pope, the head of my church is the Living Christ himself!

Of ours too.

Afterburned6387:

I do want to make one thing perfectly clear though, I DO NOT think all catholics are going to hell, in fact I only think the vast majority are

Oh this is terribly reassuring… (Um… Ani, you better think about that again.) Mr Afterburner, how many people are in the ‘vast majority’? How many did you interview?

Afterburned6387:

, just as I feel the vast majority of my fellow protestants face the same fate.

Gosh, how can you be so sure? I thought that was up to God.

Afterburned6387:

after all, we live in a country where we aren’t persecuted

That’s because you are not Catholic. Try being Catholic and say that.

Afterburned6387:

I would encourage all Catholics to pursue God, to put their faith first and foremost in Christ

We do.

Afterburned6387:

, and not the Church

Jesus gave us the Church so we are going to follow Jesus not you.

Afterburned6387:

, to make their relationship to God personal

It doesn’t get more personal than the Real Presence.

Afterburned6387:

and if you still insist in taking part in all the sacrements, I find no fault in your faith.

Do you understand the Sacraments? If a vulnerable young person were to ask you to explain the Sacraments, would you be able to provide an accurate explanation without misrepresenting what the Church actually teaches on the Sacraments?

 

[sojo]

wow… what an incredible thread. I’m am so happy I made the much easier cross from Jewish to Catholic. Guess that’s not crossing the Tiber but???

The whole historical adventure into Protestant-land is way too scary. I do run into lovely folks trying to save my soul from Catholicisim on a regular basis, but their theology, history and logic are so sorely hurting so all I can really feel for them is pity and add them to my prayer list.

sojo

 

[Ani_Ibi]

wow… what an incredible thread. I’m am so happy I made the much easier cross from Jewish to Catholic. Guess that’s not crossing the Tiber but???sojo

Tiber’s good. :extrahappy: :harp:

 

[jazzy_987]

After signing on to a “Christian” discussion forum, I was utterly surprised by the hatred some of the Protestants expressed towards me and my fellow Catholics. They often did not want to listen and, instead, bashed the church on hot-topic issues: Mary, Tradition, etc…

I know. I joined a Protestant forum, and there are so many remarks that are completely so anti-catholic that I’m shocked.
Many believe that we are a cult, and they refuse to listen to my rebuttals that they were misunderstood. However there were some tolerant people, and others attacked everything catholic. But I really want to clear the misunderstanding, how do I get them to listen–i try to be as nice as possible.

 

[Afterburned6387]

Wow, I really made some folks angry, I must be doing something right. Here’s another one particularly addressed at Ani Ibi:

How dare you call yourselves “persecuted!” you do not face imprisonment, confiscation of property, denial of basic rights, execution or torture. Pick up a book on martyrology, see how those who truly would contend for the faith were treated. Being called a few names, or maybe looked at as being a little weird fall far short of the historical norm for “persecuted” It is the height of vanity to be upset because the name of Christ caused you to have fewer friends, or people to disagree with you at parties, or gosh, question your beliefs.

Look to your own first popes! they were persecuted, Peter was even crucified upside down! Any American on this forum better not be complaining of persecution!

 

[Atemi]

And I do not totally understand your position because you make claims without telling us what specific things you are talking about. Do you want people to be able to understand what you are saying? If so, please give us enough information to see what it is you are talking about. OK? Thank you.

Read rest of the thread, Ibi.

 

[Atemi]

I don’t understand how they can think that… as many prejudices as i mentioned i had earlier in the thread …I would never have called a Roman Catholic anything other than Christian.

I personally do not assume anyone is a Christian…Catholic or otherwise.

Even over 80% of Americans say they are “Christian.” I surely do not take them at their word.

…

 

[Church_Militant]

wow… what an incredible thread. I’m am so happy I made the much easier cross from Jewish to Catholic. Guess that’s not crossing the Tiber but???

The whole historical adventure into Protestant-land is way too scary. I do run into lovely folks trying to save my soul from Catholicism on a regular basis, but their theology, history and logic are so sorely hurting so all I can really feel for them is pity and add them to my prayer list.

sojoWRONG! You BETTER put that “Tiber Swim Team” in your signature! You swam yours upstream!
Shalom elechim!

 

[Church_Militant]

Wow, I really made some folks angry, I must be doing something right.

Not likely…

How dare you call yourselves “persecuted!” you do not face imprisonment, confiscation of property, denial of basic rights, execution or torture. Pick up a book on martyrology, see how those who truly would contend for the faith were treated. Being called a few names, or maybe looked at as being a little weird fall far short of the historical norm for “persecuted” It is the height of vanity to be upset because the name of Christ caused you to have fewer friends, or people to disagree with you at parties, or gosh, question your beliefs.

My ancestors are Irish and Polish. Both have suffered persecution for their Catholic faith.

The Irish suffered confiscation of lands, higher taxes, imprisonment, starvation, attempts at forced conversions, and even in this country were denied jobs.:irish1:

The Polish have suffered many things but the things that come to mind most are the brave Catholics who went to concentration camps because they wouldn’t side with the Nazis in their persecution of the Jews. Go and read about Edith Stein and Maximilian Kolbe.

Look to your own first popes! they were persecuted, **Peter was even crucified upside down! **

Any American on this forum better not be complaining of persecution!Ever hear of the New American Party? The “Know Nothings”? Research them and then talk… Ever hear of the Ku Klux Klan? Better do your homework then…and that was right here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Ever hear of the San Patricianos? What do ya suppose made those Irish Catholics fight against the Texans for the Mexicans? It sure as vitam aeternam wasn’t franchise rights on Taco Bells…

BTW…that bolded statement about Peter’s martyrdom…did you find that in the Bible or do you accept that as fact from Christian history and Tradition?