Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

[livingwordunity]

did you get around to identifying the people you were talking about in post 1 yet?

It wasn’t my intention to call anyone out. That’s why the OP is very generalized.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Here’s a question for you. If you owned a business and had an employee who never did anything else but verbally attack the company that pays his wage would that be good or bad for the business and other employees?

In a ‘company’ those in authority make the decisions, not the fellow employees. The business we are discussing is Christ’s Church, which He is the head of. He chose and appointed authoritative men over that Church. He said He didn’t come for the righteous, but instead for the sinner. None of us in His Church are without sins, whether we speak on them or not. A Church without sinners is an empty Church.

 

[Fairwinds]

It seems that many have totally misunderstood livingwordunity’s original post. It’s not about those who lead sinful lives apart from the Church, nor is it about those who live sinful lives within the Church, but are trying to overcome.

It’s about those who actually have a hatred for the faith, don’t believe in some of the doctrines, and make a big deal out of it by actively campaigning against the Church and maligning it…

right, so the OP should identify those people instead of using innuendo. because that’s a serious charge and it would be only fair to hear the other side.

 

[livingwordunity]

In a ‘company’ those in authority make the decisions, not the fellow employees. The business we are discussing is Christ’s Church, which He is the head of. He chose and appointed authoritative men over that Church. He said He didn’t come for the righteous, but instead for the sinner. None of us in His Church are without sins, whether we speak on them or not. A Church without sinners is an empty Church.

So in a company, other employees don’t have any right to ask why their coworker hates the company that pays their wage?

 

[livingwordunity]

right, so the OP should identify those people instead of using innuendo. because that’s a serious charge and it would be only fair to hear the other side.

The OP doesn’t condemn anyone, and I would like to keep it that way. I’m only asking why some people hate the Catholic Church so much but choose to stay. It’s like if someone always verbally assaults their mom and dad, but they choose to stay at home.

 

[Fairwinds]

The OP doesn’t condemn anyone, and I would like to keep it that way. I’m only asking why some people hate the Catholic Church so much but choose to stay.

you’re using innuendo to avoid censure, considering the timing of post 1 and the language you lifted from another thread where a similar discussion was ongoing and you were getting the worst of the debate.

 

[livingwordunity]

you’re using innuendo to avoid censure, considering the timing of post 1 and the language you lifted from another thread where a similar discussion was ongoing and you were getting the worst of the debate.

You want me to be guilty of a false accusation. But I guess that would be easier than actually addressing my question in the OP.

 

[Fairwinds]

You want me to be guilty of a false accusation…

you already are.

 

[livingwordunity]

You want me to be guilty of a false accusation. But I guess that would be easier than actually addressing my question in the OP.

you already are.

The accusation is that I have condemned someone. You want me to call out someone because I haven’t done that. Therefore I have not been guilty of the offense you want me to commit. You will just have to settle for being wrong in what you are trying to accuse me of doing.

 

[Fairwinds]

The accusation is that I have condemned someone. You want me to call out someone because I haven’t done that. Therefore I have not been guilty of the offense you want me to commit.

I think you should link the other thread, the post in particular, that resulted in this particular thread. you’ve made some outrageous accusations by innuendo.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So in a company, other employees don’t have any right to ask why their coworker hates the company that pays their wage?

Ask the head of the ‘company.’ This is not a company, nor is it a democracy. It is the Church Christ started; Christ who came for the sinner and not the righteous. The Church is where we all go for correction. Christ gave a formula for fraternal correction. Is posting anonymously on a public forum, where those in need of the correction may not even be, a part of what Christ taught? No.

And let’s not forget the audience Christ gave that formula to; it was only His Apostles He spoke too.

 

[livingwordunity]

I think you should link the other thread, the post in particular, that resulted in this particular thread. you’ve made some outrageous accusations by innuendo.

I did not have a different thread in mind when I posted this one. I wish you would at least try to answer the question in the OP instead of hijacking this thread.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It seems that many have totally misunderstood livingwordunity’s original post. It’s not about those who lead sinful lives apart from the Church, nor is it about those who live sinful lives within the Church, but are trying to overcome.

It’s about those who actually have a hatred for the faith, don’t believe in some of the doctrines, and make a big deal out of it by actively campaigning against the Church and maligning it.

I’ve encountered such people many times.

Pesonally, I think it is because they were very poorly catechized and/or were led astray by false theology taught by a good number of priests and religious during the past 40+ years.

I agre with the OP. Why do they keep hanging around a place that they hate? This is a great lack of integrity. They should follow their consciences (however faulty) to a church that best matches their beliefs (probably a liberal Episcopalian/Anglican or Lutheran church might fit better).

This might tend better toward their salvation. God willing, they will come to see their error and return to the Church. It is better to do that than to perhaps promote heresy within the church and make sacrilegious communions.

It is one thing to struggle with Church teaching, or to be unaware of it, and another thing to be quite aware of it and reject it (all the while calling oneself “Catholic”.)

Do we have faith in Christ or not? He said, ‘even the gates of hell shall not prevail.’

All are sinners. If we prevent one from saying their Catholic because they sin, we again have an empty Church.

 

[livingwordunity]

Ask the head of the ‘company.’ This is not a company, nor is it a democracy. It is the Church Christ started; Christ who came for the sinner and not the righteous. The Church is where we all go for correction. Christ gave a formula for fraternal correction. Is posting anonymously on a public forum, where those in need of the correction may not even be, a part of what Christ taught? No.

And let’s not forget the audience Christ gave that formula to; it was only His Apostles He spoke too.

Again. I didn’t condemn anyone. I only asked a question. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” How are we to beware of this if we bury our head in the sand ignoring everything that is going on around us?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Again. I didn’t condemn anyone. I only asked a question. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” How are we to beware of this if we bury our head in the sand ignoring everything that is going on around us?

You asked why some stay in the Church while seeming to hate the Church. Seeming to who? Who makes that judgement? Then it was summed up by referring to ‘model Catholics.’ There ‘seems’ to be some liberal use of innuendos. What’s the motivation?

We maintain our faith in Christ, and not of ourselves. We have an authoritative Church That is not burying your head.

 

[St_Francis]

In response to **MinkyMurph’s **comment about Catholicism being tied to cultural identity.

Here is an article which talks about this. The article is answering a completely different question, and in the US, but I think that he does give a good description of the phenomena of the link between cultural and religious identity.

I may start a thread about this, because it brings up some interesting issues…

 

[livingwordunity]

You asked why some stay in the Church while seeming to hate the Church. Seeming to who? Who makes that judgement?

There are a significant proportion of Catholics who believe that the Catholic Church has a “war on women” and that the Church and all the Church’s bishops and all who agree with the Church’s teachings are bigoted. If someone called you a bigot wouldn’t you start to wonder if they didn’t like you?

 

[St_Francis]

I think you should link the other thread, the post in particular, that resulted in this particular thread. you’ve made some outrageous accusations by innuendo.

This is ridiculous: the OP is not talking about specific people bit about people who hold to a certain type of thinking. Most of us know some people like that. I have certainly met people like that: people who know what the Church teaches and who reject one or more teachings and go around grousing about it.

For you to assume that the OP was referring to specific people *and *for you to try to get her to name those people is not really noce of you on either count.

Do you have any insight on why some who vociferously reject Church teaching continue to stay in the Church rather than leaving? Maybe you can point us in a certain direction as some on this thread have.

 

[Julianna]

Emotional straw man. I asked a question. I did not condemn anyone. I hope everyone of them will repent and be saved. By the way, you just judged me. Do you know what’s in my heart?

I’ve been Catholic all my life and have never heard that phrase spoken by a “Catholic”. My mother is Baptist and I have heard my grandmother say it many times (God rest her soul, I know she is with Him)…I have also heard my Pentacostal cousins say the same. Never a Catholic.

oh, by the way, I know it’s me you are after. That’s ok. I’m not a mod runner cryin’ boo-hoo, so you have my word, I don’t go to the mods. You have every right to speak your mind, and I have every right to disagree with you on point.

As for what is in our hearts…you don’t know, and we don’t know what is in yours.

 

[manualman]

The ones I’m asking about are very militantly against the Catholic Church, and they don’t think the Church has any right to correct them.

I don’t know how that can be considered “sticking with their faith”.

There is both validity and danger in this observation. I suspect that it really is true that there are a substantial number of people in the church (especially among those who are employed by the church), who stay because they have appropriated the church for the cloak of respectability it gives them.

Remember the former Fr. Matthew Fox? A moonbeam New Ager who spoke far and wide making a big name for himself in catholic circles before his grotesque teachings finally triggered some disciplinary action. Barred from active ministry as a catholic priest, he tried to take his show private and promptly disappeared from national view. Oh I realize he hasn’t actually starved to death yet, but he’s got nowhere near the audience he once did. Why? Because he can no longer be a parasite on the church.

I suspect that recognizing this reality is the only reason groups like the LCWR haven’t jumped ship and tried to go their own way: it’s more lucrative to keep sucking catholic blood and resources.

And it’s not just at the high profile level. What else is Mrs. Groovylove, the parish DRE going to do with her M. Div. from Rebellion Catholic U? She’s stuck if she wants to eat and pay her student loans. Good thing catholic pastors rarely “judge” those working in active opposition to church teaching, eh? Too often, not even when said rebels are on the payroll and actively confusing the parishioners!

All this said, there is a real danger in setting yourself up to be the determinant of who should and who should not be “in” the church. To a certain extent, you are responsible for discerning who to support and give money to. Do it wisely and with open eyes. As for those you determine not worthy of supporting in their ministry direction and goals: pray for them. Apostate or not, God still loves them and desires them to return. Good thing too because you and I are just as much in need of that Mercy as they are.