Why do some stay in the Catholic Church while seeming to hate the Church with all their being?

[livingwordunity]

This is another subject you once brought up, comparing Westboro Baptists and an unnamed group of homosexuals, as ‘haters.’ I told you then, and still believe, that if we’re not careful, we fall into comparison with their ‘actions.’

No, we are not to judge anyone. We are to judge actions, but we cannot see the intent of a person’s heart, and how it will be judged by Christ’s mercy.

You’ve spoke on people ‘hating’ the Church, but in general terms. When using general terms we have to be on guard not to use ‘speculation.’

Let me get this straight. You are basically saying that we can’t know for sure if those who accuse the Catholic Church of having a “war on women” and accuse the Church of being bigoted really hate the Catholic Church, right?

 

[St_Francis]

Then you ignore the distinction that all Catholics are not like that with references to ‘model Catholics.’ That gives an impression of ‘more righteous.’

The fact that he asks a question about those who commit one type of sin does not in any way implly that those who do not belong to the group which commits *that particular *sin are not sinners themselves.

If I were to ask a question about apples, would you start raling about the fact that I had not mentioned that oranges, peaches, apricots, pears, et al, are also fruit?

 

[livingwordunity]

The fact that he asks a question about those who commit one type of sin does not in any way implly that those who do not belong to the group which commits *that particular *sin are not sinners themselves.

If I were to ask a question about apples, would you start raling about the fact that I had not mentioned that oranges, peaches, apricots, pears, et al, are also fruit?

The only way people can refute the OP is with a straw man personal attack argument.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Let me get this straight. You are basically saying that we can’t know for sure if those who accuse the Catholic Church of having a “war on women” and accuse the Church of being bigoted really hate the Catholic Church, right?

Show me how you know, beyond any doubt, that they are not walking in weakness of doubts but really ‘hate’ the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The fact that he asks a question about those who commit one type of sin does not in any way implly that those who do not belong to the group which commits *that particular *sin are not sinners themselves.

If I were to ask a question about apples, would you start raling about the fact that I had not mentioned that oranges, peaches, apricots, pears, et al, are also fruit?

Really? Then questioning other Catholics because of possible doubts, or whatever troubles their heart, and then offering up ‘model Catholics,’ which is also open to personal interpretation, does not imply anything while asking why do they stay in the Church?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The only way people can refute the OP is with a straw man personal attack argument.

The comparisons of the first post is applicable to the scripture provided, where Christ spoke about the Pharisee and the Publican praying. I, myself, am no more righteous than another and must seek God’s forgiveness and mercy, and I search for remedies in the Church.

 

[livingwordunity]

Show me how you know, beyond any doubt, that they are not walking in weakness of doubts but really ‘hate’ the Church.

Tell me how saying that the Church has a “war on women” and is bigoted is not the same as saying that the Church is evil.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Tell me how saying that the Church has a “war on women” and is bigoted is not the same as saying that the Church is evil.

What is your suggestion for people who possibly really do ‘hate’ the Church?

 

[Joe_5859]

This question does pop up now and then. When it does, I always post a link to this article:

Why I’m Still A Catholic by Fr. Andrew Greeley

I think there is no single answer. Everyone’s reasons are their own. But I think Fr. Greely’s article does a good job of illustrating that many just look at things from a vastly different vantage point.

For me, I think that it is evidence of the overwhelming draw of Catholicism. Even when people disagree, there is just something that keeps them coming back and identifying as Catholic.

We are all prone to rationalization and living out logical inconsistencies. Some people just don’t stop and ask themselves those types of questions. So why would they leave? I think for many, too, the concept of changing one’s religion is completely foreign. It would be like them saying, I don’t want to be of this-or-that ethnic ancestry anymore.

 

[St_Francis]

The comparisons of the first post is applicable to the scripture provided, where Christ spoke about the Pharisee and the Publican praying. I, myself, am no more righteous than another and must seek God’s forgiveness and mercy, and I search for remedies in the Church.

Yes, Living Word mentioned his wife as an example of the “model” of a faithful Catholic–is’t that lovely! What a wonderful husband; how well he thinks of his wife!

So, I ask a question about apples, which grow in cooler climates, unlike oranges, which grow in warmer climates. This still does not imply that everything which is not an apple is not a fruit. Nor does it imply that no other fruits grow in coller climates. Nor does it imply anything about the one who asked the question, who did not call *himself *anything in particular, just mentioned that he does know a Catholic who somehow manages not to rail against the Church.

You still have not answered my question: do you have anything to contribute as to why people who rail against Church teaching decide to remain in the Church which they seem to “hate”?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, Living Word mentioned his wife as an example of the “model” of a faithful Catholic–is’t that lovely! What a wonderful husband; how well he thinks of his wife!

So, I ask a question about apples, which grow in cooler climates, unlike oranges, which grow in warmer climates. This still does not imply that everything which is not an apple is not a fruit. Nor does it imply that no other fruits grow in coller climates. Nor does it imply anything about the one who asked the question, who did not call *himself *anything in particular, just mentioned that he does know a Catholic who somehow manages not to rail against the Church.

You still have not answered my question: do you have anything to contribute as to why people who rail against Church teaching decide to remain in the Church which they seem to “hate”?

People are weak, for whatever reasons. A truly strong person could obtain perfection, and righteousness. We don’t question those who search for God, especially through His Church, or we shouldn’t. It’s against the teachings of the Gospels, and His Church.

Let’s look at the Church’s teaching on one issue that the Church speaks plainly on, yet some question.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Those people who continue their journey, through His Church, are displaying a call to God’s will in their lives, even through the difficulties they encounter. It’s really that simple.

We don’t have any authoritative men of our Church questioning anyone continuing their journey through His Church. Even those who have been excommunicated are encouraged to continue their journey through His Church.

There are no apples or oranges among us. We all seek the same thing, yet find ourselves at different levels, or understandings. God reveals only that which we can handle at the present time in our lives. Those people are not beyond His reach, yet questioning them could push them further into their obstinance and then our actions become culpable.

Fraternal correction is through examples, and expressions, of love and charity. Anything less does not represent that which we are all called to.

 

[manualman]

So some sins are acceptable to the Church? No. All sins is at odds. It is individual perception to qualify another person’s sins, over their own.

Sin is certainly sin and without Christ’s redemption, all sin is mortal. But we’ve been redeemed by Christ and offered forgiveness. If you think that God considers defiant and unrepentant sinners identically to the way He considers those who recognize their sins and have sought fogiveness and healing for them, I suggest you might want to try reading that big book on the coffee table some time (i.e. the bible). In the story of the pharisee and that tax collector, there were TWO things that made the pharisee detestable and the tax collector beloved:

1. The pharisee refused to face his sinfulness and through pride convinced himself of his own righteousness in God’s eyes.
2. The Tax collector recognized his sins and was humble enough to confess and beg God for forgiveness.

Who’s the real pharisee here, the OP or the catholics who insist that their sin is righteousness? People are right to remind him that’s it’s not his job to make a list of such people. Fortunately, he hasn’t attempted that, has he?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sin is certainly sin and without Christ’s redemption, all sin is mortal. But we’ve been redeemed by Christ and offered forgiveness. If you think that God considers defiant and unrepentant sinners identically to the way He considers those who recognize their sins and have sought fogiveness and healing for them, I suggest you might want to try reading that big book on the coffee table some time (i.e. the bible). In the story of the pharisee and that tax collector, there were TWO things that made the pharisee detestable and the tax collector beloved:

1. The pharisee refused to face his sinfulness and through pride convinced himself of his own righteousness in God’s eyes.
2. The Tax collector recognized his sins and was humble enough to confess and beg God for forgiveness.

Who’s the real pharisee here, the OP or the catholics who insist that their sin is righteousness? People are right to remind him that’s it’s not his job to make a list of such people. Fortunately, he hasn’t attempted that, has he?

God knows the inner most intents of our hearts. That’s something none of us can see. If there are extenuating circumstances, that is also something we cannot see. We cannot see the causes of doubts, or disagreements. We cannot see if those doubts, or disagreements, will be lifelong, or will they convert?

As for your suggestion, I read it regularly, and question your wording in your ‘suggestion.’

The real Pharisee is the one who thinks themselves more righteous than others. This poster pointed out generalized ‘haters’ and then said not all Catholics are like that, there are model Catholics. Some identification has taken place, just not in this thread.

 

[fix]

It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Catholic Church on a number of questions, notably sexual and conjugal morality, divorce and remarriage. Some are reported as not accepting the clear position on abortion. It has to be noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teaching. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the magisterium is totally compatible with being a “good Catholic,” and poses no obstacle to the reception of the Sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching of the Bishops in the United States and elsewhere.”

Pope John Paul II

 

[St_Francis]

People are weak, for whatever reasons. A truly strong person could obtain perfection, and righteousness. We don’t question those who search for God, especially through His Church, or we shouldn’t. It’s against the teachings of the Gospels, and His Church.

Let’s look at the Church’s teaching on one issue that the Church speaks plainly on, yet some question.

Those people who continue their journey, through His Church, are displaying a call to God’s will in their lives, even through the difficulties they encounter. It’s really that simple.

There is a huge difference between people who struggle with teachings and those who flaunt their disagreement.

We don’t have any authoritative men of our Church questioning anyone continuing their journey through His Church. Even those who have been excommunicated are encouraged to continue their journey through His Church.

Who is saying their decision is wrong? The OP was wondering why they decided that way rather than the other way.

There are no apples or oranges among us. We all seek the same thing, yet find ourselves at different levels, or understandings. God reveals only that which we can handle at the present time in our lives.

We are free to reject that which God reveals to us.

Those people are not beyond His reach, yet questioning them could push them further into their obstinance and then our actions become culpable.

No one is pushing them; no one is questioning them; one is simply asking why do they make a certain decision as opposed to a different decision? (Please see my post which will follow for more about this.)

Fraternal correction is through examples, and expressions, of love and charity.

Oh? And what would you call what you have been doing on this thread? Your fraternal correction has not limited itself to example (!), or expressions of love and charity.

Anything less does not represent that which we are all called to.

I am not sure what you mean here

 

[manualman]

The real Pharisee is the one who thinks themselves more righteous than others. This poster pointed out generalized ‘haters’ and then said not all Catholics are like that, there are model Catholics. Some identification has taken place, just not in this thread.

That’s the standard interpretation sold to people since the 60’s so that they never object when society’s standards are progressively lowered. But read it again, it’s not true. What condemned the pharisee was his lack of recognition of his own sinfulness and resulting lack of repentance for it. That resulted in gloating over the perceived greater sin of the tax collector, but the underlying issue was his own impenitence.

The OP makes an excellent point in reminding us that Jesus warned us to beward wolves in sheep’s clothing. The “you can’t ever make a judgement about anyone or anything” crowd never has an answer for that one.

The bottom line is that there are errors that can be made on both sides of the issue. Some fall into the ditch on the right side of the straight and narrow road and cluck over the awful depravity of others to the point where they fail to admit and repent of their own sins. Others fall into the ditch on the left side of the road and permit people to say or do nearly anything in the name of Jesus without approbation (except, strangely, for the cardinal sin of “judging.”) The high road is to avoid both ditches and be vigilant against the influence of those proselytizing their favorite sins as virtues while remaining penitently aware of one’s own sins and reliance of Grace. It’s a skinny road, which is why it’s so easy to fall into the ditch.

And for the record, I will NOT comment on the origin of all that mud on my pants and boots…

 

[livingwordunity]

Sin is certainly sin and without Christ’s redemption, all sin is mortal. But we’ve been redeemed by Christ and offered forgiveness. If you think that God considers defiant and unrepentant sinners identically to the way He considers those who recognize their sins and have sought fogiveness and healing for them, I suggest you might want to try reading that big book on the coffee table some time (i.e. the bible). In the story of the pharisee and that tax collector, there were TWO things that made the pharisee detestable and the tax collector beloved:

1. The pharisee refused to face his sinfulness and through pride convinced himself of his own righteousness in God’s eyes.
2. The Tax collector recognized his sins and was humble enough to confess and beg God for forgiveness.

Who’s the real pharisee here, the OP or the catholics who insist that their sin is righteousness? People are right to remind him that’s it’s not his job to make a list of such people. Fortunately, he hasn’t attempted that, has he?

Thank you!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There is a huge difference between people who struggle with teachings and those who flaunt their disagreement.

One must judge to state an assurance of understanding wholly.

Who is saying their decision is wrong? The OP was wondering why they decided that way rather than the other way.

The question in itself states they are wrong, and the poster goes on from ‘seeming’ to hate, to hate. The question is confirmed as a condemnation when ‘model Catholics’ are offered up as example of how the others should be.

We are free to reject that which God reveals to us.

We are free for ourselves only. We cannot presuppose the disposition of others, when it counts. We are not all equal, of intellect, knowledge, wisdom, guidance, piety, strength of faith, or fear of the Lord even.

No one is pushing them; no one is questioning them; one is simply asking why do they make a certain decision as opposed to a different decision? (Please see my post which will follow for more about this.)

How we offer ‘fraternal correction’ is important. We cannot use less than love and charity, to draw someone to the truth of love and charity. We cannot use offensive language, accusatory tones, be condescending, or anything else that is less than required of all believers.

Oh? And what would you call what you have been doing on this thread? Your fraternal correction has not limited itself to example (!), or expressions of love and charity.

I have explained how we should approach others, number one by thanking God that others with faults come to His Church, the place of correction. I have condemned any innuendos, or insinuations, that can push people away, as well as portraying a self righteousness above others.

I am not sure what you mean here

We are called to help people to the love of Christ. If we don’t use love, the love of Christ is not recognizable in the message we convey.

 

[St_Francis]

To you and to MinkyMurphy and possibliby another, those who brought up the issue of culture wrt to the original question…

Aha! To converts, to those who did not grow up with Catholicism as a part of their cultural identity, and to those like me who were not raised in the Faith nor in a Catholic environment, the question makes perfect sense. Why? Because we have all chosen to leave something (s) with which we disagreed to join up to the Church. For example, I left the “normal” materialist, secular society for Christianity. Then I left that for Catholicism.

Why? Because I no longer agreed with the teachings of my previous environments.

So to those of us who have rejected a previously-held idea and then acted hpon that rejction, the sort of retroactive idea of having stayed seems… really weird. Why would we have stayed with a community with which we no longer agreed?

So when we see Catholics complaining about the teachings of the Church, when we see those dissenters openly advocating that the *Church *change, we wonder about this. We don’t understand it. It doesn’t make sense to us. It is bewildering to us.

This question does pop up now and then. When it does, I always post a link to this article:

Why I’m Still A Catholic by Fr. Andrew Greeley

I think there is no single answer. Everyone’s reasons are their own. But I think Fr. Greely’s article does a good job of illustrating that many just look at things from a vastly different vantage point.

For me, I think that it is evidence of the overwhelming draw of Catholicism. Even when people disagree, there is just something that keeps them coming back and identifying as Catholic.

We are all prone to rationalization and living out logical inconsistencies. Some people just don’t stop and ask themselves those types of questions. So why would they leave? I think for many, too, the concept of changing one’s religion is completely foreign. It would be like them saying, I don’t want to be of this-or-that ethnic ancestry anymore.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Thank you!

You overlooked a question I asked you.

What is your suggestion for people who possibly really do ‘hate’ the Church?