Why do the " Bad Boys" get so many women?

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I’m getting the sense that we have different definitions for these types. Here are mine:

An alpha personality is one that naturally prefers to be in charge, and become easily frustrated when given a supporting role.
A beta personality is one that naturally prefers to be in a supporting role, and become easily frustrated when given a leadership role.
A gamma naturally likes both leading and supporting. If they are pragmatic about things, they can be the most successful type in social groups.
An omega is essentially a non-conformist, they like neither role, and have the most difficulty operating in groups.

Under my definitions, if you’ve never met male alpha’s, beta’s or omega’s… we must be living on different planets. Also, men who don’t want to be in control are not gammas under my definitions, they’re betas. I don’t know what having alpha mothers has to do with beta men.
Yes, we do have different definitions but I think the biggest difference is that I don’t see personalities as static.

As in. I do not believe an alpha will always be an alpha and a beta will always be a beta.

I’ll be honest. I started this life with what you would call a beta personality but these days I am very much in your ‘gamma’ category. I’ve grown and learned and adapted and I’m sure others do as well. 🤷
 
There is no such thing as an human alpha female…just as there is no such thing as an alpha female in any species. We have words for human females who attempt to exhibit alpha male traits, but they are not charitable words to use in company such as CAF.
This is absolute nonsense. Consider what would happen if the most popular young man in a high school were to publicly embarrass the most popular female. That would not be a politically saavy move on his part, would it? Try telling that poor schmuck that there’s no such thing as an alpha female.

There have been struggles to be alpha females since before Leah and Rachel, there always will be, any girl knows this from the time she hits grade school, and will know it until the rest of the Altar Society gathers around her casket. The world is full of queen bees, sir, and woe to the alpha male who does not realize the importance of having them as allies. Even among all herd animals, there are matriarchs, and their influence is vital for the alpha males to have any hope of leading a group of females.

I think you mean that a true alpha female and a female trying to be an alpha male are a hundred miles apart from being the same thing. That is true. Alpha females do not get their power in the same way as alpha males do, because the way relationships work in all-female groups and in all-male groups is very different.

Many women in business have finally figured this out: that is, if the nature analogy is used, they can have more influence by cultivating backing by group consensus, as alpha females do, than by trying to compete directly for control as alpha males do. Again, heaven help someone in an alpha male position of influence who tries to do an end run on someone who has used an alpha female strategy to gain a position of influence. They are going to be swimming up a fast-moving stream.
 
This is absolute nonsense. Consider what would happen if the most popular young man in a high school were to publicly embarrass the most popular female. That would not be a politically saavy move on his part, would it? Try telling that poor schmuck that there’s no such thing as an alpha female.

There have been struggles to be alpha females since before Leah and Rachel, there always will be, any girl knows this from the time she hits grade school, and will know it until the rest of the Altar Society gathers around her casket. The world is full of queen bees, sir, and woe to the alpha male who does not realize the importance of having them as allies. Even among all herd animals, there are matriarchs, and their influence is vital for the alpha males to have any hope of leading a group of females.

I think you mean that a true alpha female and a female trying to be an alpha male are a hundred miles apart from being the same thing. That is true. Alpha females do not get their power in the same way as alpha males do, because the way relationships work in all-female groups and in all-male groups is very different.
This is what I kept thinking but I wasn’t sure how to articulate it.

Thank you. These guys have never watched Mean Girls. 😉
 
This is what I kept thinking but I wasn’t sure how to articulate it.

Thank you. These guys have never watched Mean Girls. 😉
Well I love Mean Girls! I even own the movie lol

… just don’t tell my friends.
 
This is what I kept thinking but I wasn’t sure how to articulate it.

Thank you. These guys have never watched Mean Girls. 😉
Back to the original question in the thread, though, a “Mean Girl” who lets herself fall for a “Bad Boy” (aka, a jerk) will still get taken for a ride. It isn’t a matter of being an alpha, really. Sometimes sleazy guys are alphas, but oftentimes, the sleazy guys are anything but alphas. Sometimes they are “bad boys” because it seems to give a bit of dignity to being an outsider who is barred from competition to be on top by factors both in and beyond their control. If you’re on the outside, pride will prompt you to pretend that you chose to be there and that you don’t want what you can’t have, anyway.

It is a matter of bait-and-switch. Whether on the “inside” or the “outside”, these guys pretend to be whatever they have to pretend in order to bait the hook, but once the quarry is hooked, they don’t deliver. They’re guys who don’t think the rules are for them, they’re self-centered, but they’re good at making themselves look glamorous. What they want is important, so they go get it. The “good guy”, in contrast, is not so deceptive, and so he has the disadvantage of not being able to attract attention by pretending what he’s not and pretending to do what he never will. He doesn’t flatter, he doesn’t lie. He’s at an advertising disadvantage.
 
Yes, we do have different definitions but I think the biggest difference is that I don’t see personalities as static.

As in. I do not believe an alpha will always be an alpha and a beta will always be a beta.

I’ll be honest. I started this life with what you would call a beta personality but these days I am very much in your ‘gamma’ category. I’ve grown and learned and adapted and I’m sure others do as well. 🤷
I’m not necessarily saying they are 100% static, just that we do have different natural states. I do believe that they are partially learned, partially hormonal, etc.

For example, women with different levels of testosterone, estrogen, etc., are prone to more or less aggressive or social/antisocial behavior. One one hand, we each have different natural levels, but on the other, hormone levels can change through natural body changes, diet & exercise, direct supplementation, etc.

E.g.: A young submissive (beta) woman is unlikely to become an alpha overnight, but if she exercises physically a lot, lays off fatty foods, and tries to exercise her leadership skills, she may develop more alpha traits.
 
Back to the original question in the thread, though, a “Mean Girl” who lets herself fall for a “Bad Boy” (aka, a jerk) will still get taken for a ride. It isn’t a matter of being an alpha, really. Sometimes sleazy guys are alphas, but oftentimes, the sleazy guys are anything but alphas. Sometimes they are “bad boys” because it seems to give a bit of dignity to being an outsider who is barred from competition to be on top by factors both in and beyond their control. If you’re on the outside, pride will prompt you to pretend that you chose to be there and that you don’t want what you can’t have, anyway.

It is a matter of bait-and-switch. Whether on the “inside” or the “outside”, these guys pretend to be whatever they have to pretend in order to bait the hook, but once the quarry is hooked, they don’t deliver. They’re guys who don’t think the rules are for them, they’re self-centered, but they’re good at making themselves look glamorous. What they want is important, so they go get it. The “good guy”, in contrast, is not so deceptive, and so he has the disadvantage of not being able to attract attention by pretending what he’s not and pretending to do what he never will. He doesn’t flatter, he doesn’t lie. He’s at an advertising disadvantage.
But is it really true that bad boys get more girls?

I mean, REALLY?

I know the nice guy feels like he’s constantly at a disadvantage but have people actually studied this and determined that indeed the bad boy is getting the girls?

I, personally, am not at all attracted to the ‘bad boys’. The easy confidence, pretty but false words and swagger just don’t do it for me. I prefer honesty, awkwardness (honesty usually leads to awkwardness) and kindness. Am I the minority female or…? is this stereotype very untrue?
 
But is it really true that bad boys get more girls?

I mean, REALLY?

I know the nice guy feels like he’s constantly at a disadvantage but have people actually studied this and determined that indeed the bad boy is getting the girls?

I, personally, am not at all attracted to the ‘bad boys’. The easy confidence, pretty but false words and swagger just don’t do it for me. I prefer honesty, awkwardness (honesty usually leads to awkwardness) and kindness. Am I the minority female or…? is this stereotype very untrue?
You are the minority 😃
 
In my own small experience it seems that “bad girls” easily get men… I have tried to be among a very good bunch of theological men who knew all about the virtues they wanted in females. Until big-booped-blonde-Susan walks in in her miniskirt and lowcut blouse giggling and… all the good and smart Catholic boys start running after Susan, leaving the smart, normal-pretty girls to themselves… Indeed this is the sad reality when watching “nice men”… But maybe woman notice this more than men, like men sees the other side of things.

I have a feeling in generel that men are more focused on appearance and women are more focused on chemistry. Men are more focused on sex, and women are more focused on finding a best friend for life. Please do prove me wrong…

You’d probably call me a girl who was attracted to a bad boy. Indeed he was a bad boy. I’ll tell you why… well, he was charming and smart and witty, and he pretended to be the biggest romantic and wanting to marry me. In reality he was a player and a poor fool who had no deep respect for women other than his own mother. All the men looked up to him, and he wore cool clothes.
I think most women wish for a guy who can communicate on her level, who is original, a storyteller or a poet… someone who can keep an intelligent conversation with a mind of his own and someone who truly wants to discover our thoughts and minds and not just our bodies. Sometimes bad men are good at playing that part for a while… the smooth self-confident talker who knows what you want to hear. And if he is cute too then you fall for him, and when you find out how bad he is you are already far out on the emotional roller coaster.

Many good girls are naive… I know I have been terrible naive. Growing up in a fantastic family with intellectual parents, democratic values, total equality between the sexes and respect I was unaware that some men are really liars. A liar is namely a person who says untrue things with a straight face… you dont realise he is lying unless you are skilled in being on your guard, which many good girls are not at all. So we believe what the bad boy says until we have experienced clearly that he cannot be trusted…
The sad thing is that naive good girls meet guys like that and after such a relationship the good naive girl becomes a wounded, overprotective agressive person who is afraid to love or trust men. When a really good man then comes along she might in turn bite his head of and break his heart…

Anyway, who really cares. All I can say to nice boys is: cultivate interest in people, true interest. If you hardly know what to say or ask to a person in a conversation, well she wont want to have you as her life companion and best pal for life.

.
 
But is it really true that bad boys get more girls?

I mean, REALLY?

I know the nice guy feels like he’s constantly at a disadvantage but have people actually studied this and determined that indeed the bad boy is getting the girls?

I, personally, am not at all attracted to the ‘bad boys’. The easy confidence, pretty but false words and swagger just don’t do it for me. I prefer honesty, awkwardness (honesty usually leads to awkwardness) and kindness. Am I the minority female or…? is this stereotype very untrue?
Nope, I am exactly like you. I in fact have always strongly disliked the bad boys.
 
You know what I mean.:yup:

The jerks, bullies, rowdy, smooth talkin’ ones never want for women hanging all over them.:love:

While the nice guys are sitting there thinking “what the heck, I thought girls wanted nice guys.” :doh2:

C’mon guys, let em hear it, vent a little.:sad_yes:

C’mon girls, why do you go for them?:hmmm:
:flowers:
Its genetics. Women are made to desire a mate that can provide and protect for them and their children. Historically speaking thats the guy that can club another male to death or spear a lion.

Nice guys (or beta males to be technical) are at a disadvantage in the mating game, sorry.
 
But is it really true that bad boys get more girls?

I mean, REALLY?

I know the nice guy feels like he’s constantly at a disadvantage but have people actually studied this and determined that indeed the bad boy is getting the girls?

I, personally, am not at all attracted to the ‘bad boys’. The easy confidence, pretty but false words and swagger just don’t do it for me. I prefer honesty, awkwardness (honesty usually leads to awkwardness) and kindness. Am I the minority female or…? is this stereotype very untrue?
Please allow me to quibble just a bit. I think a lot of this depends on what one means by “bad boys”. If they’re narcissistic sociopaths, it’s thumbs down all the way, or ought to be.

But there are guys with “the easy confidence, pretty but false words and swagger”, who may be “bad boys” in a way, but are not really “bad”…or at least I hope that can be accepted, because I would certainly have been (and was) counted in that number by some when I was younger, and particularly by the “nice guys” with whom women could be “comfortable”.

I double, triple and quadruple-timed girls, which would, to many, have made me a “rat”, but I didn’t mistreat them except to the extent that I was “in my own game”, not theirs. In short, I was always, always, always “looking for the one”, and you can’t do that without knowing them. All relationships are risky. They, I am sure, were also “looking for the one”, but oftentimes with less focus on the goal than I had.

And, yes, I was impressed by looks, though i was far more a “face man” than I was a “body man”. A truly beautiful face excuses many a body flaw.

It probably isn’t a stretch to say that if I had not been a “bad boy”, I would never have met or married my wife. We were at a party. In my accustomed manner, I was “hustling” the young ladies there. My wife took it upon herself to critique and shoot down my swaggering ways and fail safe “lines”, and I wasn’t even targeting her. She was just nearby. At a point, I took her aside and asked her not to do what she was doing. She proposed that she would do that if I would stop being full of it around the other women. Ultimately we mutually agreed that I would always be honest around her and she could always be honest with me if she wished. We finally agreed to be each other’s “confidant”. And we really were.

Was she, is she, an “alpha female”? Well, I don’t know. She’s kind of subtle, but she won’t take anything off anybody. She’s very competent in her profession and directs others, both male and female.

Was I impressed by her looks? Yes, indeed. She looks for all the world like Sophia Loren, and still makes my breath catch. (Google Sophia all you guys who are too young to remember her, and ask yourselves whether you could put up with her even if she could be witchy.)

Would I have married her if she didn’t have her looks? Yes I would have, because of the following.

After our “pact”, which was really just a truce, we both dated others, but ultimately how can you really top “confidant”, no matter who you find and no matter what you do? We kept drifting back together; sometimes just to talk about things in our lives. Sometimes to have an “adventure” of some kind. Eventually, it was just obvious to both of us that we loved each other and would marry. And yes, I would certainly not attempt to dominate her. But neither did I want to dominate her. I admired her. I think she admired me, but in a different way. She’s far more rational and measured than I am, and smarter too. In what I guess most would think of as a role reversal, I’m the intuitive one. She “pencils out” life smoothly and rationally. I grab it by the ears and hang on without being too sure what I have hold of or where it’s going.

Was she a “bad girl”. Well, she was (and is) one of the biggest smart alecks I have ever known. She can be as aggressive as a tigress and her tongue can be as sharp as a stiletto. But she can be kinder than a saint. Was she chaste before we met? I don’t know. Never asked. Didn’t care, and it’s irrelevant anyway.

So what’s the “moral of the story” here? Well, it seems to me that some folks, both male and female, really can be thoroughgoing jerks. But just because someone seems “alpha” or, to the world IS “alpha”, it doesn’t mean they cannot be a person of inestimable value. But all relationships have to be a good “fit”, and there can be huge differences in who fits with whom. I guess I would have to say that I got a little bored with girls that didn’t seem capable of strong self-assertion, and I sympathized but didn’t like being with ones who were truly submissive. But I sure didn’t like one who seemed truly selfish deep inside. Truth is, I needed the lady who is now my wife. Still do. She’s my “civilizing principle”, both negatively and positively. And, yes, I think she needs me too. I’m the “Hun” she persuaded to get off his horse. And for her, I was glad to do it.

Are my wife and I both “alpha”. I don’t know, because I’m not real sure what an “alpha” person is. But there are those who would think so. There are those who would think not. But I know a lot of people who others would think of as absolutely “alpha”, and you can’t know the core of such a person just by looking at their outward ways.

But, Nickybr, you might be a woman for whom George Bailey is a better “fit” than Rhett Butler. And that’s okay. Nothing wrong with that. Trust that intuition, okay?
 
I have yet to meet a man who wasn’t a gamma. Most men I know like the illusion of control but prefer if the woman is the one in control. I can only assume these men had alpha mothers. 😉
I’m afraid my experience compels me to challenge this. While I wouldn’t wish to dominate all women, I certainly would at least want some real, powerful dominance over my soul mate.

I have strong feelings of respect for strong women but they are about respect, not romance. As much as I appreciate that my own mother only has my best interests, that doesn’t mean I appreciate her nagging or the fact that she can be too New Age-y to consider my perspective.

The day I find a woman who’s willing to switch those roles with me, to be the one submitting timidly to my authority, would be a miraculous day at least.

Again, I don’t wish this for all women. (It’d be a dreadfully boring world if I did.) Just the one for me. -.-
 
Did you every think that with the way society is, where the bad boy ends up with the girl, and the girl tries the change the bad boy and turns into failure. Maybe it would be better for the girl to mold the good guy instead. It seems that if it the good guy is able to do anything for the girl, he would be easier for the girl to mold him into the man that you want, instead of trying to mold someone you know you can’t only to end up with heartbreak. Just my thought. But please take it into consideration.
“the Audacity of Common Sense”
 
While reading this thread, I was reminded of something Karl Keating wrote in an e-letter some time ago. So I searched for it and found it. Here is an excerpt:

“Some speakers who have spoken for us, when first starting out, told their young audiences that somewhere out there was a Prince or Princess Charming, someone fated from all eternity to be a young person’s perfect match. Listeners were told something like this: “Save yourself for that one person that God has set aside just for you.” When I learned that this is what was being said, I told our speakers to cut it out–because it wasn’t true. It sounded romantic, and it sounded pious, but it wasn’t true.”

I urge everyone to go back and read it. It is a small antidote to excess romanticism, which is not love, and which can kill marriage if made the only priority.

It can be found here:

archive.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_080108.asp
While I agree that people should not be overly romantic or living int he past, I think much more of society has the problem of relationships being disposable, of not being romantic enough.
 
But is it really true that bad boys get more girls?

I mean, REALLY?
I don’t think so. I think it is just that people are constantly dumbfounded at how these guys get any interest at all, particularly from women (from experience or from seeing this actual guy treat women they know badly) who ought to know better. Women themselves ask this very question!! When you see a great guy getting interest, that is no mystery, but these guys keep one scratching one’s head.

I think it is like a batter asking why they always go for that same high pitch when they can never hit it. Somewhere these guys have figured out how to tap into something that is widely hard-wired that makes him seem a “good” choice, just like pitchers get the number of certain batters. Once you have that tendency, it is not easy to “un-wire” it. That makes a person vulnerable.
 
I’m sorry but I have some problems with the word ‘chivalrous.’ It means two things to me, one good and one bad. On the good side you have King Arthur and on the bad side you have Don Quixote.

I don’t see myself in either of them (especially the latter which I completely despise).

Yes, if I had a girlfriend (good Lord please give me one already), I would definitely be the protective sort (obsessively even). Yes, I can be polite. Yes, I would be devoted. Yes, I open doors for people out of common courtesy.

However, I’m not the type to play nice. Here is where my sense of honor differs from the knightly sorts. You cross me, expect me to resort to methods that so-called ‘chivalrous’ types will decry exclusive to classical villainy. I am not above lying, manipulating, and taking you out without even facing you.

Speaking in fantasy terms, why should I bother fighting you up front when I’m more than capable of blowing you up from a distance (and your pretty white horse too)?

Neither am I the type to help those who can pull their own weight. Be it man, woman, or even child, if you’re capable of helping yourself, then I’m not helping you unless you ask me directly (not expect me to read your mind). I don’t like people getting in my way and meddling in my affairs so it’s only natural that I do the same.
I’m sure that the following definition is something we can all agree upon calmly.
And by the way, many ladies show these fine attributes as well:

chiv·al·rous   [shiv-uhl-ruhs]
adjective

1.having the qualities of chivalry, as courage, courtesy, and loyalty.

2.considerate and courteous to women; gallant.

3.gracious and honorable toward an enemy, especially a defeated one, and toward the weak or poor.

Sounds much like our Lord Jesus as He walked upon the earth, and like His Mother who inspires us.

May your day be blessed,
Kathryn Ann
 
…e.g.: A young submissive (beta) woman is unlikely to become an alpha overnight, but if she exercises physically a lot, lays off fatty foods, and tries to exercise her leadership skills, she may develop more alpha traits.
You sound as if you don’t have the slightest clue how female relationships work. Do you have any idea what makes the difference between a queen bee and a wannabe?

Guys can try to become alphas by what you’re describing, kind of. It might work sometimes. With girls, the process is more like rising in the court of Louis XIV, and it has a lot less to do with fitting into the right size of jeans than you think.

The healthiest thing for girls is to stay out of the whole dominance game, or at least not to concern themselves with it too much. Alpha females are made in the court of female opinion, and while it is not always that way–there are groups of females with both leaders and very healthy interrelationships–it is a court of opinion that is notoriously fickle.
 
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