Why do we live in a competitive society?

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You do realize that attempts at utopia tend to end in tyranny, right?
 
redbetta said:
You do realize that attempts at utopia tend to end in tyranny, right?
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Utopia is probably the wrong word for what i am thinking. Essentially i think utopia ideals, in economic terms, tend to end in tyranny either because they ignore the common good or because they ignore the right to property and ownership. The best economic system in my opinion is somewhere in between those two concepts, that is the common good and the the right to private property or ownership. It’s a balancing act.

Please join me here.
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The Wealth-Cap Economic System Social Justice
I’m not absolutely sure what would be the best Moral or Practical alternative to Capitalism. I’m not saying that all competition is wrong, i am just saying that it should not determine whether or not you live in poverty. Given that principle i think we should think of alternatives. Lets attempt to conceive of what a Christian utopia would be like in economic terms. What system would best represent a Christian worldview? I think a Christian economic system first and foremost ought to recognize t…
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They tend to end in tyranny because they start with good intentions, but with a flawed view of human nature, usually an over-optimistic one.
 
A few comments:
  1. Thank you for putting ideas out for discussion. I love good, respectful discussion / debate.
  2. I tend to believe competition is a very good thing for everyone, however, I do realize not everyone has the same abilities, and that needs to be taken into account. (Kind of like how we have Special Olympics…everyone needs to strive for whatever their best self is)
  3. Could you define “poverty”? There are a lot of views on what poverty is…I would like to understand your perspective.
  4. Wealth Cap. Honestly, I have an issue with a wealth cap…especially one managed by a government. There are certainly downsides to a huge amount of wealth controlled by a few people, but unless they cheated to get that money, I don’t trust government to manage the wealth equation. If a person “plays by the rules”, I don’t see why a government should get a bigger share of a person’s income than the person generating that income.
  5. Government jobs. I remember seeing a report many moons ago about how certain “government jobs” paid the person less money than it cost the government to generate that job…underscoring my point about how the government does nothing efficiently. Certainly some government jobs are necessary, but I tend to believe the private sector is better at delivering goods and services than the government.
  6. What do you mean “limited” right to property? (I may or may not agree with you here)
Blessings!
 
Maybe more people than you think know about the hardships, etc. of being a Catholic. And they are afraid of what others will think of them. And also no one wants to go through pain, and doubt God?
 
There are needs and common goods that cannot be satisfied by the market system. It is the task of the state and of all society to defend them. An idolatry of the market alone cannot do all that should be done.

Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno (“After Forty Years”), 1931 #40
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Have you read Populorum Progressio by Pope Blessed Paul VI?

While not outright condemning market economics, he cautioned that:
But it is unfortunate that on these new conditions of society a system has been constructed which considers profit as the key motive for economic progress, competition as the supreme law of economics, and private ownership of the means of production as an absolute right that has no limits and carries no corresponding social obligation. This unchecked liberalism leads to dictatorship rightly denounced by Pius XI as producing “the international imperialism of money”. One cannot condemn such abuses too strongly by solemnly recalling once again that the economy is at the service of man.

Populorum Progressio (“On the Development of Peoples”), Pope Paul VI, 1967 #26.
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Individual initiative alone and the mere free play of competition could never assure successful development. One must avoid the risk of increasing still more the wealth of the rich and the dominion of the strong, whilst leaving the poor in their misery and adding to the servitude of the oppressed.

Populorum Progressio (“On the Development of Peoples”), Pope Paul VI, 1967 #33.
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For all this, however, both pontiffs stressed that we should not strive to do away entirely with economic competition:

Pope Pius XI: “But free competition, while justified and certainly useful provided it is kept within certain limits, clearly cannot direct economic life” (1931 #88)

Pope Paul VI: “Competition, to be sure, is not to be excluded from commerce, but it must be kept within those limits which make it just and fair and therefore worthy of man.” (1967 #61)
 
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Vouthon said:
For all this, however, both pontiffs stressed that we should not strive to do away entirely with economic competition:

Pope Pius XI : “ But free competition, while justified and certainly useful provided it is kept within certain limits, clearly cannot direct economic life ” (1931 #88)

Pope Paul VI : “ Competition, to be sure, is not to be excluded from commerce, but it must be kept within those limits which make it just and fair and therefore worthy of man. ” (1967 #61)
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Thanks for the post! I will look into that.
 
Pope Blessed Paul VI also condemned “bureaucratic socialism, technocratic capitalism and authoritarian (populist) democracy” as political systems that have failed and are failing to properly service the needs of humankind:
Bureaucratic socialism, technocratic capitalism and authoritarian democracy are showing how difficult it is to solve the great human problem of living together in justice and equality. How in fact could they escape the materialism, egoism or constraint which inevitably go with them? This is the source of a protest which is springing up more or less everywhere, as a sign of a deep-seated sickness …

Octogesima Adveniens (“A Call to Action”) , Pope Paul VI, 1971 #37.
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Bureaucratic socialism collapsed in Eastern Europe and much of the globe in 1989-1991, as a result of its grave social evils.

Technocratic capitalism entered one of its greatest crises from the 2008 financial crisis onwards, as a result of growing income inequality and the inequities of trickle-down economics.

Authoritarian democracy - in the form of Putinism in Russia, Erdoganism in Turkey, Orbanism in Hungary, Brexit in the UK and Trumpism in America - has spread like wildfire across much of the developed world as a result of the abject injustices of neoliberal market capitalism.

Bureaucratic socialism is even making a comeback in Britain at the same time with Jeremy Corbyn consolidating power over the formerly moderate Labour Party.

In the same Apostolic Letter, Pope Paul VI returned again to a reflection upon the problems with unlimited economic competition:
Unlimited competition utilizing the modern means of publicity incessantly launches new products and tries to attract the consumer…While very large areas of the population are unable to satisfy their primary needs, superfluous needs are ingeniously created. It can thus rightly be asked, if in spite of all his conquests, man is not turning back against nature, is he not now becoming the slave of the objects which he makes.

Octogesima Adveniens (“A Call to Action”), Pope Paul VI, 1971 #9.
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Utopia?

Pope Blessed Paul VI also directly addressed that in Octogesima Adveniens (1971):

http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-v...f_p-vi_apl_19710514_octogesima-adveniens.html
Today, moreover, the weaknesses of the ideologies are better perceived through the concrete systems in which they are trying to affirm themselves (bureaucratic socialism, technocratic capitalism and authoritarian democracy)…

We are witnessing the rebirth of what it is agreed to call “utopias”. These claim to resolve the political problem of modern societies better than the ideologies. It would be dangerous to disregard this. The appeal to a utopia is often a convenient excuse for those who wish to escape from concrete tasks in order to take refuge in an imaginary world. To live in a hypothetical future is a facile alibi for rejecting immediate responsibilities.

But it must clearly be recognized that this kind of criticism of existing society often provokes the forward-looking imagination both to perceive in the present the disregarded possibility hidden within it, and to direct itself towards a fresh future; it thus sustains social dynamism by the confidence that it gives to the inventive powers of the human mind and heart; and, if it refuses no overture, it can also meet the Christian appeal. The Spirit of the Lord, who animates man renewed in Christ, continually breaks down the horizons within which his understanding likes to find security and the limits to which his activity would willingly restrict itself; here dwells within him a power which urges him to go beyond every system and every ideology. At the heart of the world there dwells the mystery of man discovering himself to be God’s son in the course of a historical and psychological process in which constraint and freedom as well as the weight of sin and the breath of the Spirit alternate and struggle for the upper hand.

The dynamism of Christian faith here triumphs over the narrow calculations of egoism. Animated by the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, and upheld by hope, the Christian involves himself in the building up of the human city, one that is to be peaceful, just and fraternal and acceptable as an offering to God. (22) In fact, “the expectation of a new earth must not weaken but rather stimulate our concern for cultivating this one. For here grows the body of a new human family, a body which even now is able to give some kind of foreshadowing of the new age” (23).
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My idea has it’s problems but I’d actually go the other way

Minimum income.

I would envision a card that can only be used to buy basics i.e. healthy food, basic clothes, rent a basic home, have access to free heathcare and education and a transport allowance as well to allow for work commutes/job hunting. I suppose a phone and computer are also necessary to work in modern society so they would also be available.

It serves the common good because everyone has what they need.
I think it also incentivizes work because most people will want more than a basic standard of living (I’d imagine).
I would also picture everyone having this card (or at least every family unit having one) so I think that discourages looking down on people with it.

Do I think it’s practical? No, but I do think it would be a nice idea if it could work financially.
 
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IWantGod said:
As Catholics we are against socialism or communism. But we don’t seem to have any qualms about the idea of competing for our survival, a world where our well being is determined by having the best idea or out-competing the other guy. A guy can gain everything and a guy can literally lose everything and become homeless. Kind of like survival of the fittest. We have capitalism which seems to me to be a competition for the best way of life. .

We compete for our survival and quality of life (our Jobs).
We compete for a voice in society.
Even in school it seemed everybody was competing for something whether it be social recognition or dominance…

It’s almost as if we are unwittingly living out our Darwinian roots.

Why do we live in a competitive society?
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Competitiveness is part of human nature.

Even a good liberal socialist like you wants to win the battle of ideas.
 
I have an understanding that the “Mark”
that the Beast, the anti-Christ will cause
ppl to take IS A CARD w/ a PIN thus “on
the forehead” is mentioned, it is the locat-
ion of the memory and “on the hand” is
where the card is used!!
 
I have heard Christians of various kinds say that the cash card is a fulfillment of the beasts mark, and there is something to say about money becoming digital, and maybe one day replacing money entirely as that would be a means of totalitarian control… But that’s not the point, there is no evil necessarily in using a card system for convenience.

To me, the Mark of the beast essentially represents willful slavery to a sinful corrupt system, for the sake of our desires, and if you don’t participate, if you do not wear the mark, then your needs will not be met. If you don’t sellout your humanity to the system then the system will not support you. That system could very well be the so called capitalist system we have today where everybody is competing for their dignity or some illusion of status. But probably not. The reality is probably far worse and more spiritual than physical but i dare sare that capitalism is a perfect breeding ground for the beast…
 
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I know a few people who think that ‘living in a competitive society’ means living in a society in which they will have to work to earn a living—a notion which they apparently reject.
 
Have you considered that the church might be against communism for political reasons, rather than theological ones?

Do you have any passages that prove Christianity is necessarily against communism? I’d love to see them, and know for sure if I’m wrong or right. And I believe Catholics have long criticized the lack of compassion and cooperation and excessive competition in society. Anti-communism does not imply pro-capitalism
 
The Church upholds an individuals right to private property which Communism does not.
Curious11 said:
And I believe Catholics have long criticized the lack of compassion and cooperation and excessive competition in society.
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Indeed, more should be done. I am probably more left wing than many here though.
 
Does the church specifically advocate private property of the means of production? That’s really the essence of the question. Communism is about the means of production.

In any case, do any biblical passages come to your mind that oppose communism? I patiently await your answer.
 
Popes have written social encyclicals opposing socialism and communism. One might start with Divina Redemptoris by Pope Pius XI.

But sometimes, results are sufficiently persuasive even without theology. See the Black Book of Communism.

Or see what Hugo Chavez and Maduro have done to Venezuela.
 
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