Why do you feel socialism is bad?

[Hesychios]

Some failed socialist programs in the U.S.

1.) Medicare and Medicaid-----over budget, unsustainable, ineffective, wasteful (in the billions of dollars)

2.) Public Schools---- fail especially in poor neighborhoods and inefficient

3.) Roads— self explanatory

4.) Social security— LOOPHOLES

Those are some big problems.

Actually I would argue that these were very badly needed economic bug fixes, and that society would be far worse without them.

Free public education made the USA great. Does it have problems? Oh yes, and it costs money. But the USA would have languished as a third world nation without it.

Free public roads? Of course. Because roads are land and land costs money. Public roads never turn a profit, they will always be in the red, but they are the arteries of commerce and life. Long ago every great nation learned that open roads meant prosperity, and they were worth the cost.

Social Security and Medicare have saved many from utter destitution. These programs were put in place because the nation had experience without them before. This generation lacks that experience, and has trouble contemplating a world wherein their grandparents were solely dependent upon them for support. There would be a whole bunch of cascading changes in American society if this program was eliminated

For example, a lot of families in America were able to send their kids to college because grandmoms had a little bit of her own money to use and did not need very much from their children. This was a secondary effect often overlooked, but it meant a big difference to the livelihood millions of young Americans and spurred economic development of the country.

You did not mention the Postal Service, the TVA, the Hoover Dam, Credit Unions, Public Parks, Public Libraries, Public Fire Departments.

I have seen both publicly owned and privately owned water utilities in the USA, and interestingly some cities own their own electric companies. When you see this you are observing socialism at work in the community.

Free markets usually work out better. Prices are actualized, competition exists, and there is EFFICIENCY!!!

I would say ‘sometimes’. There is no perfect economic system, mixed economies are normal around the world because they can be tweaked to provide the greatest good.

There is no purely capitalist society anywhere in the developed world and that should be no surprise.

 

[fultonfish]

I keep hearing this, that all one needs is access to an ER to get medical care. Can I go to the ER for cancer treatments? Will they do a bypass at the ER? How about pre-natal care? Treat fibromyalgia? A mammogram? Antbiotics for a child’s ear infection?
The ER’s great if you fall and break your arm, are in a car accident, and the like. If you have a chronic condition, need preventative care or something like that, it’s not the place. So, people end up waiting to treat something that could have been easily fixed.

I know people who actually did go to the clinic for getting pre-malignant growths treated. Major surgery. They didn’t like having to wait and didn’t like not being able to pick and choose their own doctor. So, they went and got their own medical insurance policy at great cost; it wasn’t the best insurance, but they did end up getting the best surgeons and the best hospital treatment.

In all cases, the doctors and hospitals took whatever the insurance paid and absorbed the rest or didn’t bill (in the case of the doctors).

 

[cecilia97]

I keep hearing this, that all one needs is access to an ER to get medical care. Can I go to the ER for cancer treatments? Will they do a bypass at the ER? How about pre-natal care? Treat fibromyalgia? A mammogram? Antbiotics for a child’s ear infection?
The ER’s great if you fall and break your arm, are in a car accident, and the like. If you have a chronic condition, need preventative care or something like that, it’s not the place. So, people end up waiting to treat something that could have been easily fixed.

My mom’s best friend received free breast cancer treatment from a teaching hospital right here near Houston. She’s been cancer free for over 6 years now.

And yes, you can get antibiotics for kid’s ears at the ER.

 

[cecilia97]

Excuse me,but i said that if you read the bible you will see how Jesus spent much of his life on earth seeking out the poor, the needy and the outcasts of society. He so closely associated with the destitute that he told his disciples that the way they relate to the hungry, the poor and even prisoners is the way he considers them to be relating to him.

Indeed, and that is why Christians, especially Catholics and the Church, do acts of charity every day. Jesus never said to make Caesar do the charity for us.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Indeed, and that is why Christians, especially Catholics and the Church, do acts of charity every day. Jesus never said to make Caesar do the charity for us.

He never said not to either. Caesar is us these days because it’s we that elect our ogvernement.

 

[cecilia97]

He never said not to either. Caesar is us these days because it’s we that elect our ogvernement.

Jesus never said not to do a LOT of things…that argument could go almost anywhere.

But no, while we elect representatives, the government does not act according to the will of the people all the time. Abortion is a perfect example.

Or are you advocating a Christian government that would do our works of mercy for us?

 

[athansor]

My mom’s best friend received free breast cancer treatment from a teaching hospital right here near Houston. She’s been cancer free for over 6 years now.

And yes, you can get antibiotics for kid’s ears at the ER.

Is that what we want to encourage, though, people with no insurance going to the ER for every routine thing that normally would be handled by an office visit or hospital appointment? Do we want to deal with the massive wait times, and know that when someone comes in with an emergency, they may have to wait hours while the staff is treating all the non-emergency cases?
Now, someone mentioned clinics and teaching hospitals, and those might be an alternative in places where they are available. If healthcare reform included clinics and other options like teaching hospitals that provided low to no cost healthcare for those who needed it, that would be a great thing. I suppose, though, if one was against all forms of taxpayer funded assistance in healthcare, they oppose these types of things as well.

 

[ecce_ego]

What incentive is there to do very well when the government will just take an exceptionally large portion of my earnings?

The love of Christ and your fellow man? Oh no, wait, that’s right. I forgot. This is America.

 

[ecce_ego]

I have a better idea: why don’t all of you who want your little socialist utopia pack your bags and move to Europe and quit trying to ruin our Democratic Republic.

“My father was a slave and my people died to build this country, and I’m going to stay right here and have a part of it, just like you. And no fascist-minded people like you will drive me from it. Is that clear?” -Paul Robeson, before the House Un-American Activities Committee, 1956, when basically told the same thing.

 

[ecce_ego]

My question is, how would it be if the Church were running things. As Catholics, that is supposed to be our goal. So what would the Church do? How would Jesus run a country? Would He ask you to give of the things you aquired by putting to use those talents and abilities HE GAVE YOU? There must be leadership and government, whether within the Church or without. As a Catholic, we are under authority. We have someone telling us what to do and what not to do, whether we like it or not.

What I have come to see from these posts, is that all those who are shouting the old standbys, "leave if you don’t like it!’ and ‘if you are poor it’s obviously because you are lazy and just want a handout’, are actually the ones who are selfish. People who are against distributism are selfish. They do not want to submit to anyone’s authority. Thay claim it’s just the ‘government’, but isn’t that really what the Church is, too? “Why should I give MY hard earned money to someone else?” “Why can’t I just help the poor through my Church and charities?”

These people are the same who invariably also start asking, “Why should I have to do what the pope says?” Why can’t** I** just interpret the Bible the way I think is right?" Why do I have to go to church on Sunday, it’s such an inconvenience."

We have seen what happens throughout history when people are given the choice of whether or not to help their fellow man. They choose not to. When there is no authority telling them to give, people will choose to let their neighbors die in the gutter. Yes, I’ve read history books, too.

So, if socialism is wrong, and capitalism is wrong (it is if you believe the pope, anyway, but, then again, like I said, probably most of you don’t respect his authority, either), then what is RIGHT? You have all the criticisms- let’s have some solutions, FFS.

 

[ecce_ego]

As to motivation…why would I spend years in college to become a doctor or a lawyer if the government was going to 1) limit my salary, 2) tax me into oblivion, or 3) give my money to the guy down the street who doesn’t like to wake up in the morning to go to a job?

Ahem. Once again, the whole love of Christ and fellow man? I certainly hope my doctor didn’t just get into medicine for the paycheck. I like to think he actually cares about people and wants to help them. Meh. Diff’rent strokes…

 

[ecce_ego]

HickmanJosh, perhaps you would like to assess what you see happening in Chavez-land?
Is it good? Is it benefitting the people? Is it growing the economy of the country? Are the people happy and thriving?

Chavez-land? Wow, that’s as creative as what I always heard growing up: ‘******-land.’

You sure sound like you are happy and thriving.

 

[ecce_ego]

Amen!

If I give a dollar to the guy standing at the freeway underpass, he has a whole dollar to spend on his most urgent needs. That could be a burger, a blanket, or a room for the night, or even drugs…I don’t know. He knows what will get him through the day.

If I give a dollar to the government, THEY decide what this man needs, they take their cut to cover administrative costs, and he ends up with what? A 40 cent voucher for eggs? A 25 cent voucher for an apartment in an impoverished and dangerous part of town? Food stamps that he can sell on the black market in order to make money to buy drugs?

It’s easy to see that direct giving is the most economical and efficient.

No, he will use your dollar to buy beer or drugs, because the government already gave him food and clothing and a cheap apartment.

Edit to say that this is one of the most illogical statements I’ve ever heard. ‘He knows what he needs to get through.’ So while the government will force him to eat and have clothes and shelter, you’d rather he decides what to do. At least the government was keeping an eye on him. What if he thinks ‘what he needs to get through’ is to go buy two 50 cent hookers? That’s better than the big, bad government giving him some eggs, FFS??

 

[kvw]

R. J. Rummel has a great site with interesting statistics on different types of government and their “democide” statistics. Democracy still appears to be safer than socialism. This site is loaded with statistics.
www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MTF.CHAP1.HTM
www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html [home]

 

[cecilia97]

Is that what we want to encourage, though, people with no insurance going to the ER for every routine thing that normally would be handled by an office visit or hospital appointment? Do we want to deal with the massive wait times, and know that when someone comes in with an emergency, they may have to wait hours while the staff is treating all the non-emergency cases?
Now, someone mentioned clinics and teaching hospitals, and those might be an alternative in places where they are available. If healthcare reform included clinics and other options like teaching hospitals that provided low to no cost healthcare for those who needed it, that would be a great thing. I suppose, though, if one was against all forms of taxpayer funded assistance in healthcare, they oppose these types of things as well.

Wether we want to encourage ER use or not, the argument that millions of poor sick people are lying on our sidewalks with NO CARE is false. I haven’t heard anyone here argue that our current healthcare system is perfect…we’ve just said that socialism is not the answer.

I was in the ER for an emergency appendectomy three months ago. I live in the nation’s 4th largest city. There were…oh…three people in the waiting room. I was seen within 20 minutes.

We don’t need reform to have options like low-cost clinics and teaching hospitals…we have them right now.

Teaching hospitals typically get their funding from tuition which is paid by students, from some services paid by the public, gifts from benefactors, etc. They might receive some government money, but not a majority of their dollars.

This illustrates the point, I think, that many on this thread are trying to make. We don’t object to the FUNDING, we object to GOVERNMENT CONTROL. Americans literally fought a war over taxation without representation. This is not part of our culture and it rubs us the wrong way. We are not trying to be greedy, we are just trying to be free.

 

[ecce_ego]

Wether we want to encourage ER use or not, the argument that millions of poor sick people are lying on our sidewalks with NO CARE is false.QUOTE]

msnbc.msn.com/id/19207050/

blogher.com/woman-dies-emergency-room-floor-while-ignored-staff

yelp.com/topic/san-diego-ignored-woman-dies-on-emergency-room-floor

No, they are dying in the ER WITH NO CARE. Read EVERY day.

 

[cecilia97]

cecilia97;6099948:

Wether we want to encourage ER use or not, the argument that millions of poor sick people are lying on our sidewalks with NO CARE is false.QUOTE]

msnbc.msn.com/id/19207050/

blogher.com/woman-dies-emergency-room-floor-while-ignored-staff

yelp.com/topic/san-diego-ignored-woman-dies-on-emergency-room-floor

No, they are dying in the ER WITH NO CARE. Read EVERY day.

Hmmm…the first link says that King-Harbor, where the woman died, is federally funded.

It also says nothing about the woman in question lacking health insurance. It says she was arrested for a parole violation while in the ER. Exactly how will more tax dollars solve that problem?

 

[ecce_ego]

“The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money…” M. Thatcher

I think the Margaret Thatcher quote is on point.

Socialism works OK as long as there are enough productive people to pay high enough taxes to support the entire population. Social programs cost a lot, and taxes must be very high, particularly in a large country such as the United States.

The U.S. has a lot of social programs, such as Social Security and Medicare, which are running on borrowed time and borrowed money. We have added high debt to high taxation to keep everything running. This has been going on since the 1940’s and is now reaching a point at which the whole scheme will come tumbling down. Fiscal insolvency is around the corner. We have a choice of depression or hyperinflation, neither of which is desirable.

Perhaps the socialist desire is that when that happens, there will be a socialist revolution. If so, it will not improve anyone’s lot because the money will be gone.

We have seen that Capitalism works OK until you run out of Socialist countries to borrow money from. Our biggest debt is owed to Communist China, FFS/

 

[ecce_ego]

Make up your mind…I could have sworn earlier you said they were a socialist country

Sweden is a Democratic Socialist country. I will assume you are really as ignorant as your post made you appear and that it was not just a sarcastic logical fallacy.

You see, ‘socialism’ is not cut-and-dried just like capitalism is not. We do not even live in a ‘True’ capitalist nation. True capitalism consists of:

1. Competition. There must be True (equal) competition. No one company must be allowed to gain a competitive advantage through unfair political or financial means
2. Choice. People (I refuse to be called a ‘consumer’, and so should you) must have True choice- they cannot be forced to buy from you because you drove every other store out of town by buying politicians in return for tax breaks that others don’t get (I’m talking to you, Wal Mart)
3. Access. All people must have True access to the market- this includes regular people who should not have to pay extra taxes for doing business (as opposed to corporations which, being ‘fake people’, must pay for the right to exist.

We have none of that in America. So it’s a red herring to say 'I thought they were socialist, not a democracy. You really can have both at once. We humans are capable enough and smart enough to mix two different things tohgether and come up with something that still works, FFS/

 

[Lutheranteach]

Actually, that is not really true. It is discussed in Dinesh D’Sousa’s book *The Virtue of Prosperity. * It’s really a good read. And a very good critique of the book is found here:

objectivistcenter.org/cth–225-The_Morality_Capitalism.aspx

In my own opinion, however, the ‘moral’ aspect is something that needs to be injected into a free market system.

Then is it really a free market if you are “adding” in something?