Why do you feel socialism is bad?

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As governments expanded their powers to promote the general welfare, these problems have become less frequent, but they still do exist today. This shows that governments must always be vigiliant and continue to pass more legislation which will provide for and promote the general welfare of all, but especially the poor and disadvantaged in our society.
So you are all for upsetting the whole economy to solve a problem that is in your head? If child slave labor was the monumental problem you think it is, where are the liberal media? They should be on this story like gangbusters.

You socialists must really be out to make capitalism fail, since it can’t be allowed to be better than socialism.
 
This is just a bunch of handwaving that doesn’t answer the question or back up your claim that social welfare (specifically where the government gives people money) programs are good.
Not at all. Without government concern to promote the general welfare, we would be back in the time when children of 12 or 13 years old, were working 80 hours per week in a factory. Do you want to go back to those times where children are enslaved by the capitalist factory owners or do you accept the fact that it is now much better that government has passed legislation to provide for the general welfare in this regard?
 
So you are all for upsetting the whole economy to solve a problem that is in your head? If child slave labor was the monumental problem you think it is, where are the liberal media? They should be on this story like gangbusters.

You socialists must really be out to make capitalism fail, since it can’t be allowed to be better than socialism.
Have you bought any clothing with the Martha Stewart label? Have you read anything about it?
I am opposed to this child labor enslavement and I hope that you would agree that the rights of children are important enough for government to pass laws to promote the general welfare in this area.
 
Not at all. Without government concern to promote the general welfare, we would be back in the time when children of 12 or 13 years old, were working 80 hours per week in a factory. Do you want to go back to those times where children are enslaved by the capitalist factory owners or do you accept the fact that it is now much better that government has passed legislation to provide for the general welfare in this regard?
This is fine. However some laws/programs have debatable returns
 
Have you bought any clothing with the Martha Stewart label? Have you read anything about it?
I am opposed to this child labor enslavement and I hope that you would agree that the rights of children are important enough for government to pass laws to promote the general welfare in this area.
I’m absolutely against child enslavement as well. The government should pass laws to promote an atmosphere of safety and prevent the enslavement and abuse of children – just as long as it means that the government doesn’t own or “take over” the clothes making and textile industries.

Promote does not mean own.

The country in question is Honduras.
 
Thanks Bay. 🙂

Lucy: if done properly, a socialist government would both provide for the less fortunate and give an incentive (as well as opportunities) to rise by personal means.
Socialism gives rise to state corporatism. Big government, big business, big unions. Bureacracies grow and become self serving. Rank, power and prestige are given by the buraucracy. Efficiency is lost because of a plethora of checks and balances put into place to control the bureaucratic decision making process. Quasi government agencies run peoples lives and decide on people’s societal arrangements without recourse to the strings of the representative process. Democracy is eroded because the decision making process is more and more prescribed. Government is through regulation, not legislation. Governments no longer listen to constituents, but to large lobby groups who can afford the expense of long and costly submissions. Unionism becomes more and more coercive and has the ear of big government and a say in the running of government departments. Seek out and read what Anne O Krueger wrote in a landmark paper entitled 'The Political Economy of the Rent-Seeking Society’ published in 1974 in the American Economic Review. Rent-seeking theory explains a range of corrupt or otherwise objectionable behaviour commonly observed in the interface between markets, governments and statutory laws and regulations, Managers regiment life across the board through the promulgation of rules and regulations. Personal decision making is subverted. Personal responsibility is likewise subverted. People are rendered servile. Society becomes soulless. It is common in all socialist economies and was grossly manifest in Communist Russia. Personal responsibility in government is subjugated by rules and regulations. Committees make decisions based on consensus and leadership is forgone in the name of consensus. Croneyism runs rampant and people rise and thrive through largesse, through who they know.

At the beginning of the century, something like nine million out of twelve million workers in Britain contributed to saving through friendly societies. The rise in state sponsored pensions stifled thrift. By the 1970s Great Britain was deply in debt with unfunded pension liabilities dragging at the Exchequer. Welfare is the central component of a managed state, because it exploits and cultivates a class of beneficiaries or pensioners who are dependent on the government, not to mention an apparatus distributing these benefits which has, of course, an interest in its continuance and expansion, that is, a self serving bureaucracy. Government as bringer of justice as fairness complements an assumption about government implicit in the entire conception of the managed state. It is that governments are not only wiser than their citizens, but also morally superior. They take the wider view. They help the poor, whereas the citizens are engaged in pursuing selfish pleasures.What piffle!

What kind of subject, one might ask, would want to have lawyers, judges, governments ‘steering’ his or her behaviour? The answer, of course, irresistibly suggests the presence of natural slavery in our midst, a suggestion supported by the way in which governments increasingly interfere in family life, health judgements, sexuality, cultural subsidy and many other areas which were in earlier and more vigorous times left to the individual citizen. What used to be the five year plans of the Soviet world have become the ‘national strategies’ of ours.

Pope Leo XIII in his 1891 Encyclical “Rerum Novarum”, stated that socialism does not help the poor. It reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.
 
This is a false dichotomy. Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?
Ok. I guess you are one of the protestants on the board who believes that Catholics don´t follow the examples of the apostles. Let me rephrase.

Which do you admire most capitalism or the socialism of the apostles? I refer you back to the Acts of the Apostles.
 
I’m absolutely against child enslavement as well. The government should pass laws to promote an atmosphere of safety and prevent the enslavement and abuse of children – just as long as it means that the government doesn’t own or “take over” the clothes making and textile industries.

Promote does not mean own.

The country in question is Honduras.
This then makes my point that it is right and just for the government to promote the general welfare as provided for in the US Constitution.
 
Promote, not own.

Are the meanings of promote and own the same?

If so, why?

The question has been asked many times. Can the Socialists answer the question?
 
Ok. I guess you are one of the protestants on the board who believes that Catholics don´t follow the examples of the apostles. Let me rephrase.

Which do you admire most capitalism or the socialism of the apostles? I refer you back to the Acts of the Apostles.
Uh, sedonaman lists “Roman Catholic” as religion.

So, is it being asserted that the Apostles were a Socialist government?

The people in question in The Acts Of The Apostles sold and gave of their own free will to the Apostles who then distributed according to need because of God. The government in power was Roman and the people rendered unto Caesar by Law.

Charity is a virtue, not a tax.

The people in Acts gave freely because they were filled with the Holy Spirit, not because of Tax or Law.
 
Seek out and read what Anne O Krueger wrote in a landmark paper entitled 'The Political Economy of the Rent-Seeking Society’ published in 1974 in the American Economic Review. Rent-seeking theory explains a range of corrupt or otherwise objectionable behaviour commonly observed in the interface between markets, governments and statutory laws and regulations, Managers regiment life across the board through the promulgation of rules and regulations. Personal decision making is subverted. Personal responsibility is likewise subverted.
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Pope Leo XIII in his 1891 Encyclical “Rerum Novarum”, stated that socialism does not help the poor. It reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.
Good post!

Ever since I found out that the number of accountants decreased, and their wages increased by 14%, I have been asking myself, why? It is a question that I have not been able to get out of my head for a week. Today it hit me. The answer is rent-seeking behavior.

Rent-seeking behavior is the idea that government licensure of professions is necessary to protect the public. Milton Friedman wrote his PhD dissertation at Columbia in the 1940’s on rent-seeking behavior. He refuted the constantly repeated mantra of rent-seeking behavior. Milton Friedman’s works provide empirical evidence that licensure is nothing more than a mechanism used by members of a profession to raise the entry costs, and thus keep wages and profits artificially high. Rent-seeking behavior improves the welfare of someone at the expense of the welfare of someone else (Baker, Morris, Barnett).

Now I understand why the CPA license requirements went up from 120 hours to 150 semester hours! Accounting majors who graduate with 120 hours are not “qualified” to sit for the CPA exam. Voila! Fewer CPAs.

References

Baker, R., Morris, D. & Barnett, J. (2001). How a free market creates wealth. Verasage Institute.
 
In terms of socialism, Fr. Corapi says it far better then I ever could:
"At a time when it surely seems that capitalism has run amuck and poised the world on the edge of economic ruin, the temptation is very strong for the pendulum to swing too far left into the failed and immoral territory of socialism. Historically pure socialism has never worked, philosophically it cannot work, and morally it is inherently evil (because it undermines the right of private property ownership, an inherent human right) and hence should not be given a chance to work.

The response might be that what we have at the moment isn’t pure socialism. The problem is that the moment is incredibly fluid and the direction toward a more radical form of socialism under way with frightening speed. Unless, of course, you believe the politicians and their appointees whose stock-in-trade has become lies, deception, and self-interest.

The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical “Rerum Novarum”, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital."

Socialism also goes completely against the concept of Subsidiarity, which is, incidentally, a fundamental principle of European Union law, though its roots are in Catholicism.
You have to love Fr. Corapi!
 
Uh, sedonaman lists “Roman Catholic” as religion.

So, is it being asserted that the Apostles were a Socialist government?

The people in question in The Acts Of The Apostles sold and gave of their own free will to the Apostles who then distributed according to need because of God. The government in power was Roman and the people rendered unto Caesar by Law.

Charity is a virtue, not a tax.

The people in Acts gave freely because they were filled with the Holy Spirit, not because of Tax or Law.
I take your point that it is voluntary socialism but still it was socialism and not capitalism that was encouraged. Still one can’t help but wonder if this socialism was as free as it is claimed by some American Catholics. Would Ananias and his wife have felt a need to lie about holding money back if they didn’t feel a social pressure to conform? When caught in the lie they dropped down dead and great fear was felt by the church.

As I said elsewhere socialism has its evils. In its communist forms it has been obligatory (not so in democratic countries where people have voted for it). Still Capitalism has its evils too. It tends to value people in terms of how much money they can earn as if that is the only evidence of contribution to society.

In Finland there are a whole lot of benefits for mothers. Maternity allowance, child care allowance etc. She (and sometimes he) may or may not be earning a living but still she is seen as contributing to society irrespective of what money she earns. Unfortunately the society here is slowly being infected by American attitudes that identifies good with wealth and the poor as lazy bums and spongers ( a few are but often this seems an exaggerated rationalisation on the part of the wealthy).
 
… Without government concern to promote the general welfare, we would be back in the time when children of 12 or 13 years old, were working 80 hours per week in a factory. …
This is a non-sequitur.
 
Good post!

Ever since I found out that the number of accountants decreased, and their wages increased by 14%, I have been asking myself, why? It is a question that I have not been able to get out of my head for a week. Today it hit me. The answer is rent-seeking behavior.

Rent-seeking behavior is the idea that government licensure of professions is necessary to protect the public. Milton Friedman wrote his PhD dissertation at Columbia in the 1940’s on rent-seeking behavior. He refuted the constantly repeated mantra of rent-seeking behavior. Milton Friedman’s works provide empirical evidence that licensure is nothing more than a mechanism used by members of a profession to raise the entry costs, and thus keep wages and profits artificially high. Rent-seeking behavior improves the welfare of someone at the expense of the welfare of someone else (Baker, Morris, Barnett).

Now I understand why the CPA license requirements went up from 120 hours to 150 semester hours! Accounting majors who graduate with 120 hours are not “qualified” to sit for the CPA exam. Voila! Fewer CPAs.

References

Baker, R., Morris, D. & Barnett, J. (2001). How a free market creates wealth. Verasage Institute.
You got it in one! CPA customers transactional opportunities deprived because of ‘political clout’. It is done through regulatory capture, or outright corruption via a sympathetic bureacracy. Individuals and firms, being rational entities, will decide whether capturing the market by increasing productivity, or via regulatory capture is the cheapest and easiest option. Usually the latter is the most profitable route towards profit. Armies of political lobbyists are the front line troops used in rent seeking behaviour.

A really cool paper on the relationship between rent seeking behaviour and democracy can be read here. The authors, two World Bank economists, write that we find strong evidence that democracies and rent-seeking are negatively linked.. The obvious inference is that if you see a lot of rent seeking behaviour in your political system, then your democracy is not functioning as it should.

Now to really open your eyes…

In 2008 Steven Horwitz of the Department of Economics at St. Lawrence University wrote a paper called An Open Letter to my Friends on the Left. In it he demonstrates how extreme rent seeking behaviour was the principle cause of the economic crash. His Letter should be pinned on every economics notice board in the world.
 
Socialism is a system in which, as St Dominic, I think it was, said, “The strong have something to strive for and the weak have nothing to fear.” It’s unlike Communism where the strong have nothing to strive for and the weak have everything to fear.

Capitalism is a system in which only the strong survive. On one hand that’s its strength and on the other its failing. President Obama is trying to address some of these failings with his welfare policies. To an outsider, it’s surprising that in the most Christian country in the world he doesn’t have greater support.
 
Socialism is a system in which, as St Dominic, I think it was, said, “The strong have something to strive for and the weak have nothing to fear.” It’s unlike Communism where the strong have nothing to strive for and the weak have everything to fear.

Capitalism is a system in which only the strong survive. On one hand that’s its strength and on the other its failing. President Obama is trying to address some of these failings with his welfare policies. To an outsider, it’s surprising that in the most Christian country in the world he doesn’t have greater support.
Capitalism is a product of a Christian tradition. Capitalism is a transactional system. Transactions should be mutually beneficial and caried out with Christian charity and magnanimiity. Christianity has a history of charitable behaviour. If society behaved in the Christian manner that is its hallmark, then charity would be in abundance and the weak would have nothing to fear. Obama cannot legislate “charity”. If he tries then he will have further weakened Christianity. The aim should be to revive Christian principles and the weak will have even less to fear.
 
Have you bought any clothing with the Martha Stewart label? Have you read anything about it?
I am opposed to this child labor enslavement and I hope that you would agree that the rights of children are important enough for government to pass laws to promote the general welfare in this area.
Those laws are already on the books. Have been for a long time. It is illegal to work a kid more than two hours a day during the week because he spends 6 hours in school, for a total of 8 hours. My company was required to post a notice of this as far back as 1960. As I said, the problem is in your head.

You have manufactured a grossly distorted concept of “promote the general welfare”. Where is your evidence the founding fathers were thinking of child slavery when the wrote the preamble? You don’t have any because there isn’t any. Slavery in general continued to exist in the US for 80 years after they wrote that, for cryin’ out loud. Go research what “welfare” meant 200 years ago before making absurd claims.

Look. The pope has declared socialism evil. You say you are a Catholic. Digging up some obscure phrase to justify your ridiculous political preference’s departure from church teaching is a sign of an uninformed conscience.

Finally, I don’t watch Martha Stewart; I don’t read Martha Stewart; I don’t buy Martha Stewart’s products because of what she did to investors. I think she should have spent more time in jail than she did and not be rewarded. I suppose you’re going to tell me that some products she endorses are made overseas by child slave labor. If that’s the case, how do you propose we change US law to prevent it? By instituting socialism!

“Someone once defined a social problem as a situation in which the real world differs from the theories of intellectuals. To the intelligentsia, it follows, as the night follows the day, that it is the real world that is wrong and which needs to change. People can define things inside their own heads any way they want to. It is only when they pretend to be talking about things outside their heads, in the real world, that they spread intellectual confusion and social chaos. Many a foolish policy is based on trying to make the real world match the picture inside someone’s head.” – Dr. Thomas Sowell
 
Capitalism is a system in which only the strong survive. On one hand that’s its strength and on the other its failing. President Obama is trying to address some of these failings with his welfare policies. To an outsider, it’s surprising that in the most Christian country in the world he doesn’t have greater support.
If it’s only a system where the strong survive, then how do you explain such phenomena as the Industrial Revolution? How do you explain how the US recovered from the Great Depression? It wasn’t socialism that did that, it was Capitalism. “Success” from Capitalism goes not only to the person who takes the risk and profits from it, but also to the many others who gain a source of income through employment. Other businesses, such as transportation, advertisers, and producers of source materials also benefit.

Consider the example of a newspaper. Someone invests the money to start one. Who gets employment? Reporters. Typesetters. Printers. The company who supplies the paper and the ink. Delivery vehicles have to be bought and operated, so the benefits slip over into the auto-making industry, repair shops, and gas stations. People have to deliver the papers. People have to answer the phones to take advertisements; editors, layout and copy people, the list goes on and on. Remove that one, first Capitalist and none of the downstream jobs coming from that investment appear.

If you need proof, look around you as our government is trying to “un-do” what it views as an evil of capitalism and look at the effect it is having. Unemployment is over 10% nationally, as high as 17% in some places; tax revenues - the money to fund government - is way down and dropping like a stone. If people can’t earn a living, they don’t have any income to tax and then become an expense to the government rather than a contributor, making the problem ever worse.

Earlier in this thread it was posed that the Apostles lived a socialist type of existence, but you will notice in the example that everyone sold what they had and joined up. This is much different than joining up with nothing and expecting the Apostles to meet all your needs including food, clothing, shelter, and health care without any limits without any contribution or expectation to have to work with them in return. The Apostles were a group of believers, not a national government with partisan factions vying to impose one or the other political viewpoints on national policy. So it’s hardly a comparison at all.
 
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