Why do you feel socialism is bad?

[jewells17]

Hello there! I’m a supporter of the United States becoming a socialist democracy, and having systems such as socialized health care.

Looking over this forum, most (if not all) of the members are strongly anti-socialist. Why?

Note: I do understand that abortion is evil if not done for (both physical and mental) medicinal reasons. If abortion is not funded, at all, would you be in favor of it?

Hey PlipPlop…please do check your TV Guide for the channel in your area for the Fox Channel and find the Glenn Beck show. We get it at 5pm and we always try to check behind whatever he says and he has been truthful so far and we have all learned so much about socialsim because of his show. Give it a try…at least you will learn why most everyone in the USA is against it and through prayer and Divine assistance…plan on stopping it. God bless you and good luck in your search for answers about this.

 

[DGendreau]

Socialism is bad because it, to a greater or lesser extent, prevents the individual from exercising his God given free will.

I would direct the reader to Part Three, Article 3 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In summary;”God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’… "(Paragraph 1730)

Where it has been argued that a socialist system, properly constructed, can provide for everyone in the system, by its nature, it removes the element of conscious decision and the reception of the rewards, good or bad, of such decisions from the individual. In the end it destroys initiative by equalizing outcomes, in so doing such systems tend to prorogate poverty rather than prosperity. When the majority have exactly the same all are equally poor. It should also be noted that the ruling classes of such systems tend to live quite above the standard of the “masses”.

Aiding the poor is one of the most important parts of Christ’s directions to us, but in order to preserve the individual’s free will, assisting the poor must be by the decision of each individual. Any system which takes wealth from one by force (law) and gives it to another is in fact forcing the donor to assist his brother, removing any merit that the donor might enjoy from the act. In essence without the exercise of free will on the part of the donor this is really no more than theft.

When one cannot direct his own actions or make his own determination as to the disposition of the fruits of his labor he is really no more than a slave.

 

[fakename]

It creates inequality and empowers the rich and powerful.

Let that blow your mind

 

[CPA2]

Socialism is bad because it, to a greater or lesser extent, prevents the individual from exercising his God given free will.

I would direct the reader to Part Three, Article 3 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In summary;”God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’… "(Paragraph 1730)

Where it has been argued that a socialist system, properly constructed, can provide for everyone in the system, by its nature, it removes the element of conscious decision and the reception of the rewards, good or bad, of such decisions from the individual. In the end it destroys initiative by equalizing outcomes, in so doing such systems tend to prorogate poverty rather than prosperity. When the majority have exactly the same all are equally poor. It should also be noted that the ruling classes of such systems tend to live quite above the standard of the “masses”.

Aiding the poor is one of the most important parts of Christ’s directions to us, but in order to preserve the individual’s free will, assisting the poor must be by the decision of each individual. Any system which takes wealth from one by force (law) and gives it to another is in fact forcing the donor to assist his brother, removing any merit that the donor might enjoy from the act. In essence without the exercise of free will on the part of the donor this is really no more than theft.

When one cannot direct his own actions or make his own determination as to the disposition of the fruits of his labor he is really no more than a slave.

Very good post! You are correct. The Catholic Church opposes socialism because governments use the threat of force to enforce the government’s will. You may not force others to be generous.

 

[josephdavid]

Very good post! You are correct. The Catholic Church opposes socialism because governments use the threat of force to enforce the government’s will. You may not force others to be generous.

So we abolish the Constitution?

Here are quotes from 2 Founding Fathers:

“Many of the opposition [to the new Federal Constitution] wish to
take from Congress the power of internal taxation. Calculation
has convinced me that this would be very mischievous.” --Thomas
Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1788.

“Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is
to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the
higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they
rise.” --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785.

“The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the
whole taxes of the General Government are levied… Our revenues
liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus
applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see
his government supported, his children educated, and the face of
his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich
alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his
earnings.” --Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1811.

"The poor who have neither property, friends, nor strength to
labor, are boarded in the houses of good farmers, to whom a
stipulated sum is annually paid. To those who are able to help
themselves a little, or have friends from whom they derive some
succor, inadequate however to their full maintenance,
supplementary aids are given which enable them to live
comfortably in their own houses, or in the houses of their
friends. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782.

“A system of general instruction, which shall reach every
description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as
it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public
concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818.

“The tax which will be paid for [the] purpose [of education] is
not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings,
priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the
people in ignorance.” --Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, 1786.

Those who want to reap the benefits of this great nation must bear the fatigue of supporting it.” ~ Thomas Paine

 

[josephdavid]

From The Catechism
2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community
2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:
Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46
The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

From Catholic Social Teaching:
As regards taxation, assessment according to ability to pay is fundamental to a just and equitable system. ~ Mother and Teacher # 132 – Pope John XXIII 1961

More specifically, it is the responsibility of all citizens, acting through their government, to assist and empower the poor, the disadvantaged, the handicapped, and the unemployed…Government may levy the taxes necessary to meet these responsibilities, and citizens have a moral obligation to pay those taxes. ~Economic Justice For All # 123 ~ U.S. Catholic Bishops 1986

Government officials, it is your concern to mobilize your peoples to form a more effective world solidarity, and above all to make them accept the necessary taxes on their luxuries and their wasteful expenditures, in order to bring about development and to save the peace. ~ On Development of Peoples #84; Pope Paul VI 1967

 

[tjm190]

Fun fact- The personal views of the founding fathers are not legally binding. Especially since they had widely varying belief systems.

 

[josephdavid]

Fun fact- The personal views of the founding fathers are not legally binding. Especially since they had widely varying belief systems.

First let me say I was only showing the legitimacy of taxation. I also posted the Catechism and Catholic Social Teachings mainly to show that taxation should benifit first the poor and the most vulnerable. I mean, ask yourself, would you not want your tax dollars to be used in a charitable and to our Catholic faith?

Now with that said. Those founding fathers put together Constitution. They are the first to ratify the Constitution. Which with in Article 1 it clearly states that the Federal Goverment has the right to tax and use for what ever purposes they want in relation to defense and general welfare of the nation.

Now if you do not like taxes here is what you can do:

1. Lobby your congressmen and others to ratify a change in the Constitution to no taxes at all or only for the middle class or what ever so you are not paying taxes.
2. Make sure you lobby your state and local too because as Federal dollars coming in lessen or cease all together. Be assured your local taxes are going to go up as most of us have seen over the past 10 years.
3. Or move to another country where there are no taxes.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

First let me say I was only showing the legitimacy of taxation. I also posted the Catechism and Catholic Social Teachings mainly to show that taxation should benifit first the poor and the most vulnerable. I mean, ask yourself, would you not want your tax dollars to be used in a charitable and to our Catholic faith?

Now with that said. Those founding fathers put together Constitution. They are the first to ratify the Constitution. Which with in Article 1 it clearly states that the Federal Goverment has the right to tax and use for what ever purposes they want in relation to defense and general welfare of the nation.

Now if you do not like taxes here is what you can do:

1. Lobby your congressmen and others to ratify a change in the Constitution to no taxes at all or only for the middle class or what ever so you are not paying taxes.
2. Make sure you lobby your state and local too because as Federal dollars coming in lessen or cease all together. Be assured your local taxes are going to go up as most of us have seen over the past 10 years.
3. Or move to another country where there are no taxes.

You posted some stuff based in Catholic Social Teaching. Great. But, aren’t our elected leaders, regardless of level, called to be good stewards of our money?

 

[josephdavid]

You posted some stuff based in Catholic Social Teaching. Great. But, aren’t our elected leaders, regardless of level, called to be good stewards of our money?

Yes they are and to use that money for good for all people especially the poor and most vulnerable. Not to benifit fat cats in Wall Street or invading a country on falty if not false pretenses, etc (more issues than I noted here).

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yes they are and to use that money for good for all people especially the poor and most vulnerable. Not to benifit fat cats in Wall Street or invading a country on falty if not false pretenses, etc (more issues than I noted here).

???You think it’s false pretext to have our troops in Haiti?

As for fat cats on wall street, that means nothing to me. It’s just name calling. Specifically, Enron’s executives, they broke the law, they were punished.

I agree we just have some regulations to keep some companies from becoming “too big to fail.”

 

[CPA2]

Yes they are and to use that money for good for all people especially the poor and most vulnerable. Not to benifit fat cats in Wall Street or invading a country on falty if not false pretenses, etc (more issues than I noted here).

What about the fat cats in government? They steal from us with their dishonest money.

Some people never learn; and some governments are equally stubborn in their ignorance.

This is especially true of money and inflation, as the following case studies vividly illustrate …

PHILADELPHIA - MAY 1775

The occasion is the Second Continental Congress.

The debate: Precisely how to pay for the coming war with England.

A minority of delegates argue that to avoid inflation, they must levy taxes, pay mostly in hard currency, and encourage free enterprise to supply the army, the navy, and the militias.

But they’re ignored, even ridiculed.

Instead, Congress issues orders to crank up the printing presses at full speed, and within months, the states do the same.

In the next five years, paper money floods the economy — $241 million in continental dollars … $209 million in state notes … plus countless millions in currency counterfeited by individuals, enterprises, and even the British.

As a result, wholesale prices surge from an index of 108 in 1776 to 10,554 by 1780.

Food shortages are endemic.

Soldiers are ill-clothed and ill-fed.

The citizenry is panicked, plundered, or both.

In June of 1775, the Massachusetts Provincial Congress declares that anyone who refuses to accept state notes or demands a premium for them is an “enemy of the country.” Other states follow suit, punishing violators with public humiliation, fines, imprisonment, and the forfeiture of their goods and property.

At the end of 1776, New England states impose wage-and-price ceilings in a desperate attempt to hold down the cost of military recruitment; and in March of 1777, the Middle Atlantic states follow their lead.

Farmers and entrepreneurs balk. They hoard large stocks of food and goods, refusing to sell them at official prices.

In response, the states pass laws forbidding these practices — crimes called “forestalling” and “engrossing.”

Farmers are forced to hand over their harvests for a pittance. Many are wiped out. Others just quit planting. Supplies dry up, and prices surge even higher.

The Revolutionary War is won. But it’s a miracle — a testament to the sheer bravery and zeal of Americans, DESPITE the financial blunders of their young government.

 

[CPA2]

As the late Adrian Rogers said, “you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
This man is truly a genius!

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before,
but had once failed an entire class.
That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.
As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

This is a great example of the socialist goal of EQUALITY OF OUTCOME. The false assumption is that the economic pie is fixed. No, the economic pie gets smaller under socialism.

 

[CPA2]

So we abolish the Constitution?

Here are quotes from 2 Founding Fathers:

“Many of the opposition [to the new Federal Constitution] wish to
take from Congress the power of internal taxation. Calculation
has convinced me that this would be very mischievous.” --Thomas
Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1788.

“Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is
to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the
higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they
rise.” --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785.

“The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the
whole taxes of the General Government are levied… Our revenues
liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus
applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see
his government supported, his children educated, and the face of
his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich
alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his
earnings.” --Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1811.

"The poor who have neither property, friends, nor strength to
labor, are boarded in the houses of good farmers, to whom a
stipulated sum is annually paid. To those who are able to help
themselves a little, or have friends from whom they derive some
succor, inadequate however to their full maintenance,
supplementary aids are given which enable them to live
comfortably in their own houses, or in the houses of their
friends. --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782.

“A system of general instruction, which shall reach every
description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as
it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public
concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Joseph C. Cabell, 1818.

“The tax which will be paid for [the] purpose [of education] is
not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings,
priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the
people in ignorance.” --Thomas Jefferson to George Wythe, 1786.

Those who want to reap the benefits of this great nation must bear the fatigue of supporting it.” ~ Thomas Paine

The income tax was illegal at the time of Jefferson. Our young country used the excise tax to support the government.

I have talked to several former IRS agents. They told me that you need a chip on your shoulder to work for the IRS. An IRS employee has to believe that what they are doing is just. When a government agency puts the law above justice, we have a police state. If you think you are free, try not paying your taxes! The “alphabet police (IRS)” will come to get you!

Stealth Tax

Do we really need income taxes to run the country? We have the stealth tax, inflation. In 1946, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve bragged that the Federal Reserve was very good at regulating the money supply. He thought that the main function of the income tax was income redistribution.

 

[CPA2]

“…Socialism…cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.” - QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931
“…no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism.” - MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961
“Socialists…debase the natural union of man and woman…the [family] bond they…deliver up to lust. Lured…by the greed of present goods…they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift.” - QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII On Socialism, December 28, 1878

Right on! Your pastor is a prayer warrior. Be sure to thank him for me. Remember that private property is the basis of our political freedom.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Stealth Tax

Do we really need income taxes to run the country? We have the stealth tax, inflation. In 1946, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve bragged that the Federal Reserve was very good at regulating the money supply. He thought that the main function of the income tax was income redistribution.

Sounds familiar.

 

[Scout1441]

“We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism until they suddenly awake to find they live under communism.”
Nikita Khrushchev, 1959

 

[ML561]

The early Christians held all property in common. Please read the Acts of the Apostles and see for yourselves. Jesus said "give to those who beg from you, and of course “render unto Caesar those things which are Caesar’s.” In other words, pay taxes.
Socialism, if it were practiced as it was meant to be, is a Christian concept, like Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin tried to do with their Catholic Worker Houses of Hospitality. Unfortunately, because of human greed, it rarely works. And with the American insistence on “rugged individualism” and “pulliing yourself up by your bootstraps”, any hint that our society might be bettered by a little less concern for ourselves and a little more compassion for others is decried as “socialism.”
Of course we do not want communism as it was practiced in the former Soviet Union and still is in some other countries. But that communism was never true socialism, as any student of history should be able to see.

I am not sure how some Christians have equated capitalism with being favored by the Lord, when Jesus Himself said "the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. " My pastor told me a beautiful parable–where it came from I do not know–about heaven and hell. He said that in hell there was a banquet table spread with all kinds of fine foods, but the people were trying to feed themselves with wooden spoons 3 feet long. They were all frustrated and angry and none could get the food to their mouths. In heaven, there was the exact same table with the same long wooden spoons, but everyone was helping to feed each other and all were satisfied! Socialism in action? Peace be with you all.

 

[sidbrown]

What about the fat cats in government? .

The electorate have the freedom to vote them out of office. With the fatcats of the Coporations who are receiving million dollar bonuses, the electorate is helpless and is unable to do anything about it.

 

[sidbrown]

The early Christians held all property in common. Please read the Acts of the Apostles and see for yourselves. Jesus said "give to those who beg from you, and of course “render unto Caesar those things which are Caesar’s.” In other words, pay taxes.
Socialism, if it were practiced as it was meant to be, is a Christian concept, like Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin tried to do with their Catholic Worker Houses of Hospitality. l.

It it is a Christian concept, then why are people on this thread saying that it is condemned by the Catholic Church?