Why do you feel socialism is bad?

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Glenn Beck is presenting a documentary on socialism, fascism, communision today (Friday Jan. 22, 2010) at 5PM EST in the USA on Fox News. Maybe give that a watch tomorrow and come back and discuss. Heads up: it may be difficult to watch, probably not for the kids.
 
It it is a Christian concept, then why are people on this thread saying that it is condemned by the Catholic Church?
God gave man free will. Socialism subverts that free will through the armed force of government. You may not force people to be generous.
 
The electorate have the freedom to vote them out of office. With the fatcats of the Coporations who are receiving million dollar bonuses, the electorate is helpless and is unable to do anything about it.
That is what we learned in grade school, but that is no longer the case.

Government agencies make their own regulatory law. No one voted for the IRS, Social Services, SEC, ICC, etc. More and more of these government agencies have their own SWAT teams e.g. Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms Bureau. Many of these government agencies are a threat to our liberty. They are a government within a government.

I happen to know of three families that the SS (Social Services) tore apart because of someone’s accusations of sexual abuse. Such concentration of power and abuse of power is unconstitutional. SS also violates the separation of powers. They are the judge and jury, much like the feudal lords were before the Magna Carta around 1225.

Adam Smith and Thomas Jefferson saw concentrated government power as a great danger to the ordinary man. The 3 documents that support this view are:
  1. Virginia Declaration of Rights – 1776
  2. U.S. Bill of Rights – 1791
  3. Separation of Powers (Executive, Legislative and Judicial)
 
“No State shall…make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts…” – The Constitution of the United States, Article One, Section 10.

I find myself in an awkward position defending cash. I do not believe in fiat money. However, I see us going to a cashless society. There is a war on cash, just as there is a war on gold. The selling points are convenience and, in my opinion, the illegal war on drugs. There is no free lunch, however. I think that the price of a cashless society will be the loss of liberty.

I am not an economist, but I am an economist at heart. I am always looking for self-interest to explain human behavior, especially political behavior. Where is the self-interest in a cashless society? I think that it is the same self-interest of government that drove us from gold to fiat money, power.

F.A. von Hayek, an economist and student of von Misses, wrote, “With the exception only of the period of the gold standard, practically all governments of history have used their exclusive power to issue money to defraud and plunder the people. What is dangerous and ought to be eliminated is not the government’s right to issue money, but its exclusive right to do so and its power to force people to accept that money at a particular rate.”
 
Hello there! I’m a supporter of the United States becoming a socialist democracy, and having systems such as socialized health care.
Why would you want the United States to become a socialist democracy? What is your goal?
 
It it is a Christian concept, then why are people on this thread saying that it is condemned by the Catholic Church?
NOWHERE, but NOWHERE, does Christ say it is the GOVERNMENT’S job to be the charitable organization. It is our duty as Christians to be charitable. The people helping one another in Heaven don’t have the government in the middle taking the spoon from one person and feeding another.

For Heaven’s sake, how inefficient that would be.
 
NOWHERE, but NOWHERE, does Christ say it is the GOVERNMENT’S job to be the charitable organization. It is our duty as Christians to be charitable. The people helping one another in Heaven don’t have the government in the middle taking the spoon from one person and feeding another.

For Heaven’s sake, how inefficient that would be.
In Scripture especially the Old Testment government (kings of that time) were held accountable to make sure the poor and the elderly and looked after, that business is providing fair wages to their employees.

The Catechism and Catholic Social Teaching profess this as well.

Society as a whole is commanded to be charitable and defend the most vulnerable from womb to tomb.

Our government is to represents society which is you and I and business.
 
In Scripture especially the Old Testment government (kings of that time) were held accountable to make sure the poor and the elderly and looked after, that business is providing fair wages to their employees.

The Catechism and Catholic Social Teaching profess this as well.

Society as a whole is commanded to be charitable and defend the most vulnerable from womb to tomb.

Our government is to represents society which is you and I and business.
Our government should hold up human dignity for all humans, born, preborn, at the end of life.

Society is not the government. The Government’s role is to allow us to be as free as possible to fully become what we are called to be.

In no way should it compel us to do what is right.
 
That should read, “In no way should it compel us to do what is ‘right’.”
:rolleyes:

In the NT Scriptures we read that the Jews were to support the Temple out of their own means. The government was not supporting the Temple. The early Christians shared what they had, it was not the Roman Empire taking from the Christians and redistributing the goods.
 
Our government should hold up human dignity for all humans, born, preborn, at the end of life.

Society is not the government. The Government’s role is to allow us to be as free as possible to fully become what we are called to be.

In no way should it compel us to do what is right.
In CCC 2431 it states that the role of the State is to oversee and direct human rights in the economic sector. It will tell you that yes it is the primary responsibility of the individual and business which also goes further in 2432. But the government has some responsibility when we fail to uphold human dignity.

In 2372 it says that the State has the responsibility for it’s citizens well-being. Had has legitimacy to intervene. However that the State can not go in and intervene with someone’s family and marriage. In Chapter 2 Article 2 Sect 1 you will find the role of authority in regards to the State.
 

In 2372 it says that the State has the responsibility for it’s citizens well-being. Had has legitimacy to intervene. …
Did you ever consider that this responsibility is currently being met? There are uncountable numbers of welfare programs available to the poor, beginning with the earned income tax credit. There are food stamps, rent subsidies, aid for paying utilities through their programs, doctors and dentists who volunteer their services, and food redistribution. The educational system in this country was established to help prevent poverty, and it was working [until the socialists decided to use it to remake society]. The list is almost endless.

These various programs won’t necessarily bring a poor family up to a middle-income standard of living, but they are far from nothing. [My two sons delivered pizzas and they both noticed that the most expensive satellite TV packages are in the poor neighborhoods. Something doesn’t compute.]

Before you advocate overturning the whole of society for nothing, you should do some research.
 
In CCC 2431 it states that the role of the State is to oversee and direct human rights in the economic sector. …
Yes, and one of those rights is the right to own property. To wit:
…In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class … To remedy these wrongs, the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community.
When a man engages in remunerative labor, the impelling reason and motive of his work is to obtain property … If one man hires out to another his strength or skill, he does so for the purpose of receiving in return what is necessary for the satisfaction of his needs; he therefore expressly intends to acquire a right full and real, not only to the remuneration, but also to the disposal of such remuneration, just as he pleases. Thus, if he lives sparingly, saves money, and, for greater security, invests his savings in land, the land, in such case, is only his wages under another form; and, consequently, a working man’s little estate thus purchased should be as completely at his full disposal as are the wages he receives for his labor. But it is precisely in such power of disposal that ownership obtains, whether the property consist of land or chattels. Socialists, therefore, by endeavoring to transfer the possessions of individuals to the community at large, strike at the interests of every wage-earner, since they would deprive him of the liberty of disposing of his wages, and thereby of all hope and possibility of increasing his resources and of bettering his condition in life.
The remedy they [socialists] propose is manifestly against justice. For, every man has by nature the right to possess property as his own.
Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property.
… There naturally exist among mankind manifold differences of the most important kind; people differ in capacity, skill, health, strength; and unequal fortune is a necessary result of unequal condition. Such inequality is far from being disadvantageous either to individuals or to the community. Social and public life can be maintained only by means of various kinds of capacity for business and the playing of many parts; and each man, as a rule, chooses the part which suits his own peculiar domestic condition. … no strength and no artifice will ever succeed in banishing from human life the ills and troubles which beset it. If any there are who pretend differently – who hold out to a hard-pressed people the boon of freedom from pain and trouble, an undisturbed repose, and constant enjoyment – they delude the people and impose upon them, and their lying promises will only one day bring forth evils worse than the present.
– RERUM NOVARUM , On Capital and Labor; Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII [Emphasis added]
In view of this and as an advocate of social change, you need to do a lot of research to justify the changes you want.
 
OP and others who thing Socialism is good,

It is really a pretty simple formula. Data show that Socialism leads to decreases in productivity and decreases in productivity lead to decreases in living standards. When living standards decrease everyone is worse off. There are more needy and fewer resources (charitable or governmental) to help them. Conversely, the combination of freedom, democracy, and capitalism increases productivity and increases living standards. JFK summed it up nicely when he said, “A rising tide lifts all boats.”

The OP and others want to convince us that Socialism and Communism are completed different even though they are just slightly different versions of Collectivism. They say to ignore USSR, Cuba, North Korea, etc. because they are/were Communist and look at Europe. OK, let’s look at Europe:
  • A 2005 study by the Assoc of European Chambers of Commerce and Industry found that the EU was roughly 20 years behind the US in economic performance, and it would take the EU until 2056 to reach 2005 U.S. levels of productivity.
  • Most recent data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development nations show that the average U.S. Citizen consumes 52% more than the average inhabitant of other OECD countries and 47% more than citizens of Western Europe.
  • Average GDP per person in the U.S. is 25% higher than in Europe
  • Average income in Europe is below that of Mississippi - one of America’s poorest states.
  • Even in a recession, U.S. unemployment rates are lower than most EU countries (there are valid arguments that the current recession and slow recovery are primarily due to increased government intervention in the U.S. economy ala Europe).
To sum it up, European Socialism has lead to a declining standard of living, slow economic growth, lack of job creation, lack of innovation, and failed health care systems. In total, Europeans across the economic spectrum are worse off.
 
Yes, and one of those rights is the right to own property. To wit:
In view of this and as an advocate of social change, you need to do a lot of research to justify the changes you want.
Thanks for this. I just hate it when people cherry pick and misrepresent what CC Teaching is.
 
OP and others who thing Socialism is good,

It is really a pretty simple formula. Data show that Socialism leads to decreases in productivity and decreases in productivity lead to decreases in living standards. When living standards decrease everyone is worse off. There are more needy and fewer resources (charitable or governmental) to help them. Conversely, the combination of freedom, democracy, and capitalism increases productivity and increases living standards. JFK summed it up nicely when he said, “A rising tide lifts all boats.”

The OP and others want to convince us that Socialism and Communism are completed different even though they are just slightly different versions of Collectivism. They say to ignore USSR, Cuba, North Korea, etc. because they are/were Communist and look at Europe. OK, let’s look at Europe:
  • A 2005 study by the Assoc of European Chambers of Commerce and Industry found that the EU was roughly 20 years behind the US in economic performance, and it would take the EU until 2056 to reach 2005 U.S. levels of productivity.
  • Most recent data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development nations show that the average U.S. Citizen consumes 52% more than the average inhabitant of other OECD countries and 47% more than citizens of Western Europe.
  • Average GDP per person in the U.S. is 25% higher than in Europe
  • Average income in Europe is below that of Mississippi - one of America’s poorest states.
  • Even in a recession, U.S. unemployment rates are lower than most EU countries (there are valid arguments that the current recession and slow recovery are primarily due to increased government intervention in the U.S. economy ala Europe).
To sum it up, European Socialism has lead to a declining standard of living, slow economic growth, lack of job creation, lack of innovation, and failed health care systems. In total, Europeans across the economic spectrum are worse off.
Source of your information?
 
Source of your information?
I know this is anecdotal, but the source is you! Suppose the government said that to be fair to those without the money to afford a computer and internet hookup, it is going to limit you to 1 post per month. How much effort would you bother to expend to make that post that I’m sure would be so full of wisdom?
 
I know this is anecdotal, but the source is you! Suppose the government said that to be fair to those without the money to afford a computer and internet hookup, it is going to limit you to 1 post per month. How much effort would you bother to expend to make that post that I’m sure would be so full of wisdom?
Huh? Ok great but what your source to statistics you posted?
 
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