Why do you feel socialism is bad?

[CPA2]

I was not able to read all answers, don’t have the time, but just to share my 2 cents:
I don’t see anything bad in a government that helps people. Take a look at Canada, for example - we have some of the highest life standards in the world, the economic crisis didn’t hit us here as hard as in the US precisely because the government makes it its business to regulate most things, including the banking system - and this is what prevented such a horrible crisis here. Besides, even people who lose their jobs here have a chance of getting unemployment for a longer period of time that in the US, giving them a better chance of finding another job without losing their homes and everything they own. And if they are unable to find a job, then there’s welfare, and programs to help people find a job. The government health care system is for everyone, and no one complains of the fact that he/she needs to pay higher taxes because we know that this helps disadvantaged people.

On a strictly Christian basis, however, I can NEVER understand people who call themselves Christian, but speak about how “the last thing you want is fewer poor people”. I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but this sounds HORRIBLE!! It seems as we have forgotten what Christ taught us, things like:
“If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.”
“And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”
“And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.”

“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment.”

Now open your Bibles and check, how many times God talks about the poor, and what does he demand that we do to help them. And then come back here, and tell me how you know better than Him.

One of the saints of our Church said that if someone has two shirts, the second one belongs to the poor. Now tell me how each of us should work for himself.

This way of thinking will alienate anyone considering converting to Catholicism. In this particular case, the ‘neopagan’ who revers Jesus, as he writes about himself, is a better Christian than many of us will ever be. Sorry to say that, it should be the other way around.

You may not FORCE people to be generous. That is why the Catholic Church opposes socialism.

Additionally, you are under the incorrect assumption that the government can reduce the level of poverty. That is an incorrection assumption.

President Johnson said that if we spent 2% of Gross Domestic Product on the poor we could eliminate property. Guess what? We spent 2% of GDP on poverty and the poverty levels are the same now as before President Johnson’s Great Society’s welfare programs! Governments lie! If you want to help poor people, contribute money to Catholic Relief Services. Do not give power to government to destroy our freedom.

Adam Smith’s genius was that he recognized the value of voluntary
exchanges. Voluntary exchanges produce a win-win situation. Both
buyers and sellers benefit. The price that they agree upon is the
market price, or the equilibrium price. Adam Smith said that a seller,
seeking only his interests, and through no conscious effort, is led by
an invisible hand to seek the public good.

Milton Friedman postulated his own invisible hand theory. He states
that an individual, seeking only the public good through GOVERNMENT
REGULATION, and through no conscious effort is lead by an invisible hand
to seek the good of the individual (not society). Milton Friedman, in his book, Free to
Choose, states that he has seen the government do little good.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Pope Pius XI QUADRAGESIMO ANNO

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno_en.html

Long, but read it.

Exercpt:

1. If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.

 

[sedonaman]

I was not able to read all answers, don’t have the time, but just to share my 2 cents:
I don’t see anything bad in a government that helps people. Take a look at Canada, for example - we have some of the highest life standards in the world, the economic crisis didn’t hit us here as hard as in the US precisely because the government makes it its business to regulate most things, including the banking system …

And my 2 cents: Does “regulation” include forcing the banks to make risky loans to people who can’t make the payments? Is it bad when a government hurts people all the while claiming it is helping them?

… The government health care system is for everyone, and no one complains of the fact that he/she needs to pay higher taxes because we know that this helps disadvantaged people.

This is a topic that untold amount of ink, TV airtime, and computer CPU time have been wasted on; and everyone knows the arguments, so let me just say that in the U.S. this is bean-dip.

On a strictly Christian basis, however, I can NEVER understand people who call themselves Christian, but speak about how “the last thing you want is fewer poor people”. I’m sorry if this seems harsh, but this sounds HORRIBLE!!

I’m the one who posted that “the last thing a bureaucrat wants is fewer poor people.” I take it you are referring to that. If reducing the number of poor people is a bad thing, then why does the Church work so hard to alleviate it? Why do people work hard to get an education to avoid it and/or to get out of it?

It seems as we have forgotten what Christ taught us, things like:
“If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.”
“And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”
“And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.”
“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment.”
Now open your Bibles and check, how many times God talks about the poor, and what does he demand that we do to help them. And then come back here, and tell me how you know better than Him.
One of the saints of our Church said that if someone has two shirts, the second one belongs to the poor. Now tell me how each of us should work for himself.

Jesus and the saint said those things at a time when there were no government programs, and the poor had to survive on private charity.

God didn’t create poor people so you could indulge in your Leftist fantasies and feel noble about your pseudo-moral high ground of using your franchise to spend other peoples’ money, however moral you think it is. For me, one of the least moral things I can think of is to keep people in poverty…and feel good about it to boot! This is what you are advocating just so you can feel good that you support the “correct” political causes without having to deal with the poor face-to-face. Sounds like you are one of those government welfare agency bureaucrats.

 

[sedonaman]

Pope Pius XI QUADRAGESIMO ANNO

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno_en.html

Long, but read it.

Exercpt:

1. If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.

Mega

 

[sedonaman]

…
There is no easy way to allocate USO costs. …

I just happened to receive this in an email from a colleague today:

We have a new contract union mail person who is miss-delivering mail everyday since he came on the job 3 January 2010. They can’t fire him despite his errors that expose all of us to identity theft - he left the cluster mailbox open Friday two weeks ago (all our mail is delivered to cluster mailboxes up to two blocks away - to save the USPS money). He exposed 24 postal patrons to mail theft, ID theft, and loss of anything valuable like Rx’s and parcels - not serious enough to fire him - he is protected by a union member in DC who owns our mail route. What a mess, all for the USPS to save money. Contract mail carries drive their own vehicles, don’t wear USPS uniforms or IDs, and do not undergo background checks - the USPS still loses money - no wonder. The contract routes are re-competed every few years. I don’t like any of this, but there no one to appeal to who cares - I have tried several times. Think what Obamacare would be like - no one to appeal to and no alternate sources. I might get mailbox at the UPS store, but some mail can be sent only to a street address.

 

[CPA2]

I just happened to receive this in an email from a colleague today:

That is a very good example of what happens when the USPS has a monopoly on first class mail. Service goes down and prices go up. This is also true for government schools, etc. Competition brings us the best product at the lowest price. For example, I have never gotten a bad meal in New Orleans! If you cannot be flexible and adapt, you can kiss your business goodbye…

Analyze, choose, communicate, interpret, understand and research do sound like they came out of an army manual. (I remember move and communicate from my ROTC days.)

I do think that flexibility is the greatest asset that we small guys (entrepreneurs) possess. We are forever going over, around and under obstacles the government puts in our way. When we fail our businesses get smaller. When the government fails, their bureaucracy gets larger. Additionally, governments are not required to be flexible or adapt to the demands of their citizens.

 

[beafedor]

Why do you feel socialism is bad?

Because I was born, raised and lived for 30 years in a country turned socialist.

Because God is put aside and religion labeled “the opiate of the people” and it is an outrage to even mention the name of God

Because “I do as I please no matter the consequences on others” is the only acceptable moral standard

Because people who have a job can’t afford to pay a rent and have to sleep on the streets with their family.

Because so many doctors put people on “diplomatic” disability so that they don’t have to put up with the boss or such “mentally abusive” coworker and these people stay home for months (or years) while getting paid (and guess who pays?)+somebody else is doing their job

Because food/gas/rent prices are going up and people’s wages stay the same.

Because the education/social security/garbage service/airport/railway/subway(…) staff are always on strike and paralyze the country as they please (and make you lose your time and money)

Because no reform or law can pass unless it’s OK with the workers unions

Because the government’s solution to everything is to make people pay new taxes or raise the taxes.

Because my family members and friends are spending more and getting less.

Because people are angry

 

[sedonaman]

Why do you feel socialism is bad?

Because I was born, raised and lived for 30 years in a country turned socialist.

Because God is put aside and religion labeled “the opiate of the people” and it is an outrage to even mention the name of God

Because “I do as I please no matter the consequences on others” is the only acceptable moral standard

Because people who have a job can’t afford to pay a rent and have to sleep on the streets with their family.

Because so many doctors put people on “diplomatic” disability so that they don’t have to put up with the boss or such “mentally abusive” coworker and these people stay home for months (or years) while getting paid (and guess who pays?)+somebody else is doing their job

Because food/gas/rent prices are going up and people’s wages stay the same.

Because the education/social security/garbage service/airport/railway/subway(…) staff are always on strike and paralyze the country as they please (and make you lose your time and money)

Because no reform or law can pass unless it’s OK with the workers unions

Because the government’s solution to everything is to make people pay new taxes or raise the taxes.

Because my family members and friends are spending more and getting less.

Because people are angry

Because, “When the Revolution is over, everyone will be eating strawberries.” And for those who don’t like strawberries, “After the Revolution, everyone will like strawberries.”

 

[sedonaman]

… Additionally, governments are not required to be flexible or adapt to the demands of their citizens.

This is true, because government is inherently slow to act. In addition, the idea of a free lunch just will not die. People don’t understand that government cannot create wealth; it can work only with what already exists. So government cannot take the existing supply of anything, spread it around, and have everyone end up with more.

 

[CPA2]

This is true, because government is inherently slow to act. In addition, the idea of a free lunch just will not die. People don’t understand that government cannot create wealth; it can work only with what already exists. So government cannot take the existing supply of anything, spread it around, and have everyone end up with more.

Socialist governments are experts at making the economic pie smaller. Why do we need a middle man (government)?

 

[sidbrown]

Socialist governments are experts at making the economic pie smaller. Why do we need a middle man (government)?

I don;t think this is true, because just take a look at Communist China. It is today the fastest grwoing economic pie in the whole world.

 

[sedonaman]

I don;t think this is true, because just take a look at Communist China. It is today the fastest grwoing economic pie in the whole world.

And you think it’s due to socialism? Just look what you called it: “‘Communist’ China”

 

[sidbrown]

And you think it’s due to socialism? Just look what you called it: “‘Communist’ China”

Communism is a harsher form of socialism.

 

[sedonaman]

Communism is a harsher form of socialism.

In what ways?

 

[sidbrown]

In what ways?

In the ways posited by the father of Socialism and Communism, Mr. Karl Marx. Karl Marx said that communism would be the final stage in society, which would be possible after a socialist stage develops the productive forces. Actrually, China today is more socialist.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

The Great Leap Forward (China) 1958-1961 (roughly) Tens of millions of people died – they starved to death while growing AND exporting grain. They starved with granaries nearby. Many short-sighted policies (The Four Pests Campaign aka The Great Sparrow Campaign) were enacted that resulted in catastrophe after catastrophe. Improper farming methods were enacted in a misguided attempt to increase output resulting in further environmental damage and reducing output. During this time the Chinese government heavily promoted (home grown) steel production reducing the number of workers that could gather grain and creating massive deforestation due to wood needed to extract the iron along with added scrap metal. The quality of the, literally, “home grown” steel was poor (almost like pot-metal for those old enough to remember) and virtually valueless. Untold executions of officials resulted from not being able to meet quotas.

Today China seems like a success to those blinded by Socialism and Communism. Fueled by policies to promote rapid economic growth the Gobi Desert is encroaching on Beijing and threatening to bury it. Numerous dust storms envelop Beijing resulting from deforestation, elimination of grasses and water depletion in the Gobi Desert. Heavy smog is common. Use of hazardous metals in items that should have none, hint at future environmental and human disasters. Is it possible that “The Great Leap Forward” has found a new foothold by encouraging recycling and importation of scrap material full of deadly metals and compounds? That an increasing number of these materials are finding its way back to the USA and perhaps the rest of the world is hardly surprising. China may be soaked with poisons and the dead bodies of those contaminated with them.

All for the collective good, to revitalize the economy. In my view, China is a gargantuan disaster just waiting to happen. Soon.

May God help the Chinese people.

 

[pepin1980]

Jesus and the saint said those things at a time when there were no government programs, and the poor had to survive on private charity.

Did Jesus ever add “but only do this until there are government programs, and then only care about yourselves”?

Another question: if you do not want to be forced to give, then why do you not give when you are not forced? Example: we had telethons in both Canada and the US now, for Haiti. The Canadians (a bot more than 30 million people) donated $13 500 000. The American (300 000 000, 10 times more), donated only $60 000 000. This means that, per capita, the Americans donated less than half of what Canadians did. The reason? You need to be taught to give to your neighbor, from an early age, which you obviously don’t know how to do.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Did Jesus ever add “but only do this until there are government programs, and then only care about yourselves”?

Another question: if you do not want to be forced to give, then why do you not give when you are not forced? Example: we had telethons in both Canada and the US now, for Haiti. The Canadians (a bot more than 30 million people) donated $13 500 000. The American (300 000 000, 10 times more), donated only $60 000 000. This means that, per capita, the Americans donated less than half of what Canadians did. The reason? You need to be taught to give to your neighbor, from an early age, which you obviously don’t know how to do.

Oversimplification. Canada donated more per capita by means of the telethon. Great! I didn’t watch the telethon nor donate through it. But I have donated cash before the telethon – through Catholic Relief Services.

Have to add up all the numbers to make a fair comparison.

 

[sidbrown]

Because, “When the Revolution is over, everyone will be eating strawberries.” And for those who don’t like strawberries, “After the Revolution, everyone will like strawberries.”

I don’t think that they had strawberries in Serbia or Socialist Yugoslavia.

 

[pepin1980]

Oversimplification. Canada donated more per capita by means of the telethon. Great! I didn’t watch the telethon nor donate through it. But I have donated cash before the telethon – through Catholic Relief Services.

Have to add up all the numbers to make a fair comparison.

Right about that one.

However, it seems to me that a lot of people here have the misunderstanding that caring for your neighbor equals socialism. Comparing this with some of the most horrible communist regimes which ever existed shows it. Communism and socialism both mean control by the government in all areas - religion, industry, freedom of speech. No one should defend communism and socialism, and that’s not what I mean.
What we’re talking about here is, as a PP so well put it, ‘social responsibility’. As only one example: many of the states mentioned before are monarchies - Sweden, Denmark, the UK, Canada (the head of the Canadian state is the Queen of England, represented by the Governor General). Socialism has always been against the monarchy. These monarchies are not socialist, they are just taking care for their people, i.e. being socially responsible.

It makes me sad to see so many people use their misunderstanding of a secular ideology (that is, caring for others, or having government health care for everyone = socialism) as justification for their actions, or lack thereof (not caring for thy neighbor). This is why I will not write on this thread anymore.
Blessings.