Why do you hate Islam?

[ZAKI]

Appearently, God thinks that Christians actually worship two other gods beside Him…
“Uzair” is the Arabic adaptation of the phrophet Ezra

Assalam,
Actually you are wrong there as well. The trinity is monotheistic with the father, the son and the holy spirit. It is not two separate gods from God rather a trinity to form one. A bit hard to explain this to some people…

wasalam

 

[Agabriel]

i didn’t discounted them at all , i know that these are all known men in islam , actually that’s why i’m sure that you proclaim lies in thier tonque , they are innocent from your words
just give me your sources if you honest , and don’t tell me that you heared it from thier own words , as for they speaking arabic and you don’t know arabic , they write in arabic and you don’t read arabic
so give me your sources please

peace

More on one of your ‘moderate’ Muslims, Maududi.

This one justifies killing of apostates all the time.

here is a good article on him justifying it via the Quran and hadiths. Why Muslims shut down the freedom of religion (I hope I don’t have to keep reposting the articles on taqiyya!)

(1) Sura 4 was revealed in Medina over a period of three years (AD 625-627). At this point some Muslims have not immigrated to Medina when the invitation had been given. A group of them, called the hypocrites, had embraced Islam with reservations. Sometimes they supported Muhammad from a geographical and religious distance, for example in saying prayers the Muslim way. At other times, they seemed to help the enemies of Islam (see Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 1, pp. 361-62, notes 116-117).

In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.

4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Al-Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)

We should note two facts from these verses. First, Allah himself made the hypocrites go astray, yet he orders them killed. Second, the Arabic verb qatala is used (root is q-t-l), and this word means exclusively to fight, kill, war, battle, or slaughter

Here is more from the ‘moderate’ Maududi’s book:

(2) Sura 9 is the last one to be revealed in its entirety. By now, Muhammad has a strong military, so he is about to “deal” with opponents once and for all. Three verses in this sura command striving (jihad) and then fighting (qital) against hypocrites and unbelievers (73-74 and 123). In these two verses, the hypocrites and unbelievers are not full apostates, according to Maududi.

The Quran says:

9:73-74 O Prophet, strive [j-h-d] hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant and stern with them . . . they did utter the words of unbelief. Thus, they were guilty of unbelief after they professed Islam . . . If even now they repent of their misbehavior, it will be good for their own selves, but if they do not repent, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the Hereafter . . . . (Maududi, vol. 2, p. 213)

The article is good because it is bringing out the definition of what Muhammed says about bad Muslims - the true bad Muslims, not the ones that we are continually told are bad Muslims by the Muslims on these threads. Meaning that bad Muslims are ones who are hypocrites and do not wage Jihad, etc. And it is all in the Quran. I don’t make this stuff up.

 

[ZAKI]

More on one of your ‘moderate’ Muslims, Maududi.

This one justifies killing of apostates all the time.

here is a good article on him justifying it via the Quran and hadiths. Why Muslims shut down the freedom of religion (I hope I don’t have to keep reposting the articles on taqiyya!)

Here is more from the ‘moderate’ Maududi’s book:

The article is good because it is bringing out the definition of what Muhammed says about bad Muslims - the true bad Muslims, not the ones that we are continually told are bad Muslims by the Muslims on these threads. Meaning that bad Muslims are ones who are hypocrites and do not wage Jihad, etc. And it is all in the Quran. I don’t make this stuff up.

Just wait you’re the same person who said this: Quran 2:190, the Quran’s first mention of JIhad - you will find this passage: 'Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s cause with full force of numbers and weaponry."
Read my reply on that. It seems as though you do make up your stuff.

wasalam

 

[Agabriel]

Disgusting post. Especially considering that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about. Jihad means struggle and not holy war. Struggling for anything such as struggling to achieve is considered a jihad. Also please don’t lie. The Quran verse 2:190 you have said doesn’t exist. the verse is from surat al-baqarah and it reads:
Fight in the cause of god against those who fight you. But do not trangress limits for God loveth not trangressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. But if they cease, God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.
Also know that “holy war” as you have said is considered to be the lesser jihad.
Also know that killing and rape and all the things you have used to describe muslims are haram. Somebody who rapes a women whether muslim or non-muslim is to be lashed. Somebody who kills somebody else whether muslim or non-muslim is to be killed.

May Allah keep us away from the liars.

wasalam

how can you do that when your Muhammed and Allah is the greatest of liars?

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

Qur’an 66:2 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

*And this next one tells us about your own Muslims who Muhammed says do not ‘fight in the Cause of Allah’:*Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”

Qur’an 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: 'Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”

*Here we got one that tells us that Allah just creates people so they can be deceived (since Muslims believe that we are predestined and Allah knows what will happen!) and then Allah can torture them. Seems sort of like a god of Sadists.*Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

If anyone wants to find out how many are dead due to all this peacefulness from Jihad can go here, it has a list of current deaths, and past years deaths since 9/11, around the world.

I have written this before and will probably write it again, if the Muslims on these threads, and elsewhere put as much energy into telling those in their own religion what Jihad really means maybe there wouldn’t be so many dead and people like me disbelieving them when they say jihad means ‘inner struggle’.

Oh, and as a side track they will have to rewrite their Quran and disperse the rewritten one that takes out the majority of their surahs that refer to Jihad as being acts of violence against unbelievers and their own hypocrites too. that might leave a smaller book for the children to memorize! You might want to take out the surahs that dehumanize the unbelievers too - that only leads to hate too.

So, you have a big task in front of you - you might be able to enlist the help of all those other Muslims who are trying to convince us of the ‘peacefulness’ of Islam too. Stop wasting all that energy on telling us and instead tell your own.

 

[sedonaman]

Ah, yes, Spain. Another example of how Islam was spread “peacefully”, and not “by the sword”.
Those examples also includes France, where the evil Charles Martel and his bigoted muslim-hating followers brutally massacred a peaceful group of muslim travellers (who carried weapons for self-defence) near Poitiers in 732.

YES! :extrahappy:

They also went to Spain, Eastern Europe, and India to make sure that Muslims already living there were not being persecuted and that Islam would “have a fair chance” – a kind of Crusade in reverse. It might even be fair to dub these efforts “Lunades”.

 

[jakasaki]

who is charles martel btw?

wasalam

After reviewing your profile and stating you are only 15, I can see why you don’t know who Charles Martel is - perhaps you haven’t studing him yet in school.

Google is your friend - check Charles out…

Viva Mr. Martel!!!

BTW - welcome to CAF

 

[GraceDK]

I could be wrong, but as I see it the main difference is between a religious mentality that forbids blasphemy and a secularist one that actively promotes it.

Just my two cents.

Tomarin, you remind me so much of the leftwing humanists in my own society who calls people racists, when they critizise Islam. Its like getting a bunch of things mixed up in a sort of naivete and misguided tolerance.

There is no secular legislation in my country that actively promotes blasphemy. There is freedom of speech, and of couse the non-religous are not living under religious laws.
Some countries have had a anti-blasphemy law that could give fines to people who deliberately mocked religion. But such cases are hard to put on trial, nor should they be in most cases.
To return to the point in question. The ´man who made the distasteful piece of “art” did blaspheme. No doubt about it. i would not legislate about it, because what is holy to me and what hurts my religious feeling is not the same to him or to others.
The emotionalism of Muslim cultures also should not have their way and have the cartoonists handed over to certain irrational regimes and the common wrath of the mob.
But when it comes to critizising Muhammad and his understanding of God, then there is often a most valid reason to do so, both as a theologian and as a democratic peace loving individual. Actually its our duty to critizise injustice and lies whereever we find them.
If you saw the small clip I sent you on my last post you would see why such critizism is necessary… because as long as 40 year old men marry and rape 10 year old girls in the name of Islam all over the Muslim world, we must, must, must speak out against barbarity. That starts with showing what Muhammad really was about including undermining his propehtic status, whether you find that somehow improper or not.

 

[sedonaman]

Assalam,
… The times when sharia was implemented properly were the greatest in islamic history. Andalus (spain) is a good example of this.
…

It’s been said by many Muslims and Islam apologists that Islam was in a “Golden Age” when Europe was “wallowing” in the Dark Ages. If that is so, pray tell us why Islamic societies today are not 500 years ahead of Christian ones.

 

[ZAKI]

how can you do that when your Muhammed and Allah is the greatest of liars?

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

Qur’an 66:2 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

*And this next one tells us about your own Muslims who Muhammed says do not ‘fight in the Cause of Allah’:*Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”

Qur’an 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: 'Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”

*Here we got one that tells us that Allah just creates people so they can be deceived (since Muslims believe that we are predestined and Allah knows what will happen!) and then Allah can torture them. Seems sort of like a god of Sadists.*Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

If anyone wants to find out how many are dead due to all this peacefulness from Jihad can go here, it has a list of current deaths, and past years deaths since 9/11, around the world.

I have written this before and will probably write it again, if the Muslims on these threads, and elsewhere put as much energy into telling those in their own religion what Jihad really means maybe there wouldn’t be so many dead and people like me disbelieving them when they say jihad means ‘inner struggle’.

You haven’t answered why you changed that beautiful verse to make it seem negative and jihad means struggle in arabic! And the inner struggle is considered as the greater jihad.
I would recommend that you stop giving the source of the Quranic verses that you quote because you keep changing them to suit you or take them out of context.

1. 9:3 Al Tawbah: On the day of the great pilgrimage-Allah and his messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans.
   This is talking about the conquest of makkah and not about Muhammed (pbuh) lying.
2. 66:2 Al Tahrim: Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases if they prevent you from doing good): And Allah is your protector, and he is full of knowledge and wisdom. You are allowed to break your oath only if it prevents you to do good and only in some case. (Btw, also know that Allah means God in arabic so when you are insulting Allah you are insulting God and thus insulting your own religion.
3. 4:142 Al Nisa: The hyprocites-they think they are over-reaching Allah but he will over-reach them: when they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen by men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance.
   You have twisted this verse to make it sound negative, I can tell you if the catholics read your twisted verse then they will hate it but if they read what it truthfully was-they would agree with it.
4. 33:11 Al Ahsab and 5:42 Al Ma’idah: Buy a Quran and read the verses before and after the one you have taken out. And with Al Ma’idah, please quote the ENTIRE verse.

I would recommend you stop, whether you are lying intentionally or misguided by anti-muslim websites-you are making a fool of yourself.
Please read the Quran fully with an open mind and open heart and come back to me (and you can stop with the insults as well).

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

After reviewing your profile and stating you are only 15, I can see why you don’t know who Charles Martel is - perhaps you haven’t studing him yet in school.

Google is your friend - check Charles out…

Viva Mr. Martel!!!

BTW - welcome to CAF

Assalam,

I am 15 and a half actually.
Oh and jazakallah khair for your welcome.

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

It’s been said by many Muslims and Islam apologists that Islam was in a “Golden Age” when Europe was “wallowing” in the Dark Ages. If that is so, pray tell us why Islamic societies today are not 500 years ahead of Christian ones.

Assalam,

Maybe if you knew of the trickery that the west used in the late 1800’s to tear khalifa down then that may answer your question.

wasalam

 

[GraceDK]

Assalam,

Maybe if you knew of the trickery that the west used in the late 1800’s to tear khalifa down then that may answer your question.

wasalam

If you symphatise with the Muslim world agaisnt the Western world, then why not move to … Yemen, or Syria or some other “nice” Sharia country, instead of living admidst Western decadence?

 

[GraceDK]

Assalam,

Maybe if you knew of the trickery that the west used in the late 1800’s to tear khalifa down then that may answer your question.

wasalam

What do you feel about phedophilia? Is it wrong? Is it punishable?

 

[ZAKI]

If you symphatise with the Muslim world agaisnt the Western world, then why not move to … Yemen, or Syria or some other “nice” Sharia country, instead of living admidst Western decadence?

Assalam,

while I do sympathise about what the west did to muslims (and currently does to some extent), it doesn’t mean I should move to a so called muslim country which actually does NOT practise shariah. Especially not now. Maybe when I’m older I’ll think more about it though…and thanks for calling shariah nice-that was very nice of you

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

What do you feel about phedophilia? Is it wrong? Is it punishable?

Assalam,
Yes it is wrong and yes it is punishable. Before you supply me with a comeback- listen to a lecture by Anwar Al-Awlaki on Aisha (ra).

wasalam

 

[Agabriel]

You haven’t answered why you changed that beautiful verse to make it seem negative and jihad means struggle in arabic! And the inner struggle is considered as the greater jihad.
I would recommend that you stop giving the source of the Quranic verses that you quote because you keep changing them to suit you or take them out of context.

1. 9:3 Al Tawbah: On the day of the great pilgrimage-Allah and his messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans.
   This is talking about the conquest of makkah and not about Muhammed (pbuh) lying.
2. 66:2 Al Tahrim: Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases if they prevent you from doing good): And Allah is your protector, and he is full of knowledge and wisdom. You are allowed to break your oath only if it prevents you to do good and only in some case. (Btw, also know that Allah means God in arabic so when you are insulting Allah you are insulting God and thus insulting your own religion.
3. 4:142 Al Nisa: The hyprocites-they think they are over-reaching Allah but he will over-reach them: when they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen by men, but little do they hold Allah in remembrance.
   You have twisted this verse to make it sound negative, I can tell you if the catholics read your twisted verse then they will hate it but if they read what it truthfully was-they would agree with it.
4. 33:11 Al Ahsab and 5:42 Al Ma’idah: Buy a Quran and read the verses before and after the one you have taken out. And with Al Ma’idah, please quote the ENTIRE verse.

I would recommend you stop, whether you are lying intentionally or misguided by anti-muslim websites-you are making a fool of yourself.
Please read the Quran fully with an open mind and open heart and come back to me (and you can stop with the insults as well).

wasalam

Well, if the Quran is only for the time of Muhammed - then it is not a book to follow for all times, is it?

It is just a book of what Muhammed said and did, and not to follow. I still say that you need to tell your fellow Muslims that bit of information.

I see you haven’t gone to the website that shows your own Muslims seem more misguided than me.

It has been quite common for many Muslims to start the ‘quote the prior and following surahs’. Nah - you go and read them yourself. And many Muslims start telling me that I am not a good Catholic, or a good Christian, etc. I have read it all before. I think you guys need to come up with something new - it gets boring to read the same excuses.

No one is misinterpreting the Quran, except for you maybe. And that is what you are told to do when dealing with us infidels:
intentionally deceiving us to know the Quran: 6:25 6:110 17:45-76

We can read for ourselves. In fact, I have read much of the Sira and hadith, and know what the historical Muhammed and Islam are all about.

Allah (or Muhammed) hated the hypocrites. Muhammed defined the hypocrites for us.

-Quran’s definition of a good Muslim: a Jihadist leaves his home, sacrificing his wealth and life, fighting in Allah’s cause. Allah says they will be rewarded with stolen booty if they survive or a heavenly bordello if they die.
(61:10, 11, etc)

• Quran’s definition of a bad Muslim, or hypocrites: are peaceful. Allah calls them hypocrites because they are unwilling to fight. It even says that peaceful Muslims are the ‘most vile of creatures’ and that hell’s hottest fires await them. They are pieces of wood with the curse of Allah
  (63:4, plus some other verses in surah 63)

So, basically if you are insulted then it is by your own Quran. I only quote that back to you.

One thing that I am certain is a problem is that the ‘cat is out of the bag’ and there is no stopping us infidels from reading and knowing the Islamic texts. I have also written this before - For about 1400 years and still counting, Muslims are not used to us knowing them or discussing them. They are used to ‘shutting us up’, and they still do in Muslim majority countries. They are trying to do that via the UN.

As for anti-Muslim websites - that is just your opinion. And when you label me such as being ‘closed minded’, or a liar, or anything - that is just something that is in your brain.

Lying is not a part of Christianity, it is not a part of Christ’s teachings, but it is indeed a part of Islam. I have already shown you those surahs, there are many more and also many more hadith and sira that Muhammed told his followers to deceive when necessary.

 

[sedonaman]

Disgusting post. Especially considering that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about. Jihad means struggle and not holy war. Struggling for anything such as struggling to achieve is considered a jihad. …

…Islam is a totally separate civilization [using the term loosely] from ours. The civilization of Islam is anti-everything in our civilization. As an example, our ethical system has at its core the Golden Rule

“Treat others as you would want to be treated”

and is a unitary system. We have one set of ethical rules for all possible groups. Islamic ethics are dualistic. Islam has one set of rules for Muslims and another set of rules for the kafirs.

Western logic is based upon Aristotelian law of non-contradiction: If two statements contradict each other, then at least one of them must be false. Islamic logic is dualistic. The Koran establishes the logic of Islam. The Koran of Mecca contradicts the Koran of Medina, but since both Korans are perfect, both sides of the contradiction are true. Dualistic logic allows two contradictory “facts” to be true at the same time. Islamic logic is built on contradiction.

[Also, to avoid extreme consequences, Western law is built on compromise.] But, there is no compromise with dualistic ethics. There is no halfway place between unitary ethics and dualistic ethics. If you are in a business deal with someone who is a liar and a cheat, there is no way to avoid getting cheated. No matter how nice you are to a con man, he will take advantage of you. In short, Islamic politics, ethics, and logic cannot be part of our civilization. Islam does not assimilate, it dominates. There is never any ‘getting along’ with Islam. Its demands never cease and the demands must be met on Islam’s terms: submission.

Endless ink has been wasted on trying to answer the question of what is Islam? Is Islam the religion of peace? Or is the true Islam a radical ideology? Is a moderate Muslim the real Muslim? Is jihad inner struggle or warfare?

No dualistic system may be measured by one answer. This is the reason that the arguments about what constitutes the “real” Islam and “jihad” [etc.] go on and on and are never resolved. A single right answer does not exist.

Dualistic systems can be measured only by statistics. It is futile to argue one side of the dualism is true. … For an example of using statistics, look at the question: what is the real jihad, the jihad of inner, spiritual struggle or the jihad of war? Let’s turn to Bukhari (the Hadith) for the answer, as he repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari 97% of the jihad references are about war and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle. Is jihad war? Yes – 97%. Is jihad inner struggle? Yes – 3%.

… almost every argument [question] about Islam can be answered by: “All of the above.” Both sides of the duality are right.

– Warner, “The Study of Political Islam”

 

[sedonaman]

Assalam,

Maybe if you knew of the trickery that the west used in the late 1800’s to tear khalifa down then that may answer your question.

wasalam

Do tell.

 

[ZAKI]

Well, if the Quran is only for the time of Muhammed - then it is not a book to follow for all times, is it?

It is just a book of what Muhammed said and did, and not to follow. I still say that you need to tell your fellow Muslims that bit of information.

I see you haven’t gone to the website that shows your own Muslims seem more misguided than me.

It has been quite common for many Muslims to start the ‘quote the prior and following surahs’. Nah - you go and read them yourself. And many Muslims start telling me that I am not a good Catholic, or a good Christian, etc. I have read it all before. I think you guys need to come up with something new - it gets boring to read the same excuses.

No one is misinterpreting the Quran, except for you maybe. And that is what you are told to do when dealing with us infidels:
intentionally deceiving us to know the Quran: 6:25 6:110 17:45-76

We can read for ourselves. In fact, I have read much of the Sira and hadith, and know what the historical Muhammed and Islam are all about.

Allah (or Muhammed) hated the hypocrites. Muhammed defined the hypocrites for us.

-Quran’s definition of a good Muslim: a Jihadist leaves his home, sacrificing his wealth and life, fighting in Allah’s cause. Allah says they will be rewarded with stolen booty if they survive or a heavenly bordello if they die.
(61:10, 11, etc)

• Quran’s definition of a bad Muslim, or hypocrites: are peaceful. Allah calls them hypocrites because they are unwilling to fight. It even says that peaceful Muslims are the ‘most vile of creatures’ and that hell’s hottest fires await them. They are pieces of wood with the curse of Allah
  (63:4, plus some other verses in surah 63)

So, basically if you are insulted then it is by your own Quran. I only quote that back to you.

One thing that I am certain is a problem is that the ‘cat is out of the bag’ and there is no stopping us infidels from reading and knowing the Islamic texts. I have also written this before - For about 1400 years and still counting, Muslims are not used to us knowing them or discussing them. They are used to ‘shutting us up’, and they still do in Muslim majority countries. They are trying to do that via the UN.

As for anti-Muslim websites - that is just your opinion. And when you label me such as being ‘closed minded’, or a liar, or anything - that is just something that is in your brain.

Lying is not a part of Christianity, it is not a part of Christ’s teachings, but it is indeed a part of Islam. I have already shown you those surahs, there are many more and also many more hadith and sira that Muhammed told his followers to deceive when necessary.

but obviously as I have shown you, you have quoted them incorrectly.

wasalam

 

[sedonaman]

but obviously as I have shown you, you have quoted them incorrectly.

wasalam

Define “incorrectly” as a Muslim understands it.