Why do you still believe

[Lui]

For example, Mr. Ehrman, when discussing the topic of free will and suffering, asks why God sometimes counteracts the free will of people (e.g. when God destroyed the Egyptian armies of exodus; or when God counteracted Pilate’s decision to destroy Jesus through His resurrection from the dead) but not does not do so more of the time. Or in other words, “why didn’t God counteract the gunman on the street, or the terrorists who hijacked the plane and caused 9/11, but was willing to counteract the free will of the Egyptian armies or Pilate”.

Did he actually use the example of 9/11? I mean the attack on the World Trade Center was terrible but if you use an example to ask why God didn’t counteract, why not use WWII? I don’t think it gets any worse than that. I once saw a documentary on WWII about US soldiers who were fighting in the Black forest in Germany. They found the diary of a young soldier who was very faithful but after witnessing so much horror, he began to lose all faith. That documentary was tough to watch without shedding a tear.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Did he actually use the example of 9/11? I mean the attack on the World Trade Center was terrible but if you use an example to ask why God didn’t counteract, why not use WWII? I don’t think it gets any worse than that.

No he never used the example of 9/11 (from what I’ve read so far anyway). I was simplifying what he was saying, hence “in other words”. Although he did go on to talk about the Holocaust, which is the part I’m on now.

 

[theistgal]

I’m reading one of Bart Ehrman’s books now (God’s Problem: How the Bible fails to answer our most important question - why we suffer). I’m not really convinced by what I’ve read so far and I actually don’t want to believe in God. He seems to me more as a man in despair (evidenced by his abundant use of personal anecdotes) than an atheistic theologian. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if we hear about his reversion in the future.

Mr. Ehrman asks certain questions that are easily answered, but at least on the surface seem to be literary nuclear bombs exploding the credibility of the bible. For example, Mr. Ehrman, when discussing the topic of free will and suffering, asks why God sometimes counteracts the free will of people (e.g. when God destroyed the Egyptian armies of exodus; or when God counteracted Pilate’s decision to destroy Jesus through His resurrection from the dead) but not does not do so more of the time. Or in other words, “why didn’t God counteract the gunman on the street, or the terrorists who hijacked the plane and caused 9/11, but was willing to counteract the free will of the Egyptian armies or Pilate”.

Seems like a finisher? Something that will make Christians lose sleep at night, right? Wrong. Mr. Ehrman makes the mistake in arguing that free will is a consequentialist doctrine. In more human terms, Mr. Ehrman believes that if an investor invests $10,000 into a business and then loses the $10,000 because of the business failing, then the investor had no free will. That makes no sense whatsoever. Free will is not a consequentialist doctrine - it does not focus on the effects of your decisions. On the other hand, it focuses on your ability to make a decision. To that end, God didn’t counteract the free will of the Egyptian armies, or Pilate at all. Instead, He counteracted the consequences of the decisions made by the Egyptian armies and Pilate. Massive difference. But Mr. Ehrman conflates the two, and unfortunately, you’ll get atheists putting this erroneous mistake across even though it has been appropriately addressed.

But I hope whatever is troubling Mr. Ehrman comes to a quick end. I can certainly sympathize with him, because I’m tasting Hell.

Did you cut and paste this from somewhere else? Your profile says you’re Catholic, yet in the first paragraph, you state, “I actually don’t want to believe in God.”

 

[theistgal]

It’s really easy to talk about how God should have handled this or that situation in history. But we can’t see the big picture, or how every moment of every person’s life affects others not even born yet.

A big part of having faith in God is trusting that whatever happens, even terrible, evil things, God will find some way to bring good out of it.

 

[Evolutionist]

Exactly, why did god not step in and stop these shocking atrocities?

As science progresses, we will learn more and more about why we are here and god will just get further and further away and finally vanish

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Exactly, why did god not step in and stop these shocking atrocities?

Because God didn’t create puppets. He created human beings.

As science progresses, we will learn more and more about why we are here and god will just get further and further away and finally vanish

Your view of science is overrated. I’ve learned way more about the meaning of life from my philosophy, theology, and even literature classes than the boring lectures of formulas, statistics, and numbers that I’ve come to associate with ‘science’.

 

[EricFilmer]

As science progresses, we will learn more and more about why we are here and god will just get further and further away and finally vanish

I find it strange for you to use the term, “why we are here.” According to atheists, science says that we are here as a result of random acts of natural forces.
Do you, as an atheist, predict science coming up with a different explanation as it progresses?

And if there is no intelligent designer then it would be senseless to ponder the reason why we are here. We would be here simply because we happen to be here. There would be no purpose or intention which motivated the creation of humans.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I believe in God for many reasons. Here are just two.

1. The beauty and complexity of life and nature around me clearly indicate a creator is present.
2. In our history on this planet, there are instances of miracles both documented and with witnesses. In context, these were from our creator and delivered to us for the purpose of strengthening our faith.

One thing I think many people don’t consider that fits in with number 1 is the phenomenon of sentience. To me, sentience is the ultimate reason for believing in God. That is the great irony, that we, who by some great mystery exist with the capability of reason, can only wonder where it came from. The fact that anything(one) is able to think and act, reason, be self-aware, tells me a great deal about the nature of reality and of the universe we live in. In my mind it is absolutely illogical to think that sentience can spring from an insentient material universe. Sentience must come from sentience, and thus sentience must have always existed. Part of the “uncaused cause” argument.

 

[Evolutionist]

Ok. Tell me why there is an afterlife? As science shows there is none.

And show me contempory records of the son of god. As all we have is word of mouth stories

 

[EricFilmer]

Jesus was a Jew, and Jews then and now dont believed in an afterlife.

However, still when I use my common sense I believe that when the brain shuts down, thats it, over. And there is no afterlife.

There is no afterlife, just accept it. Jesus never existed as a god, just a good man. My sister is a molecular biologist. When we die its over.

Ok. Tell me why there is an afterlife? As science shows there is none.

To paraphrase Shakespeare, “Me thinks thou doth protest too much.” In other words, I’m not sure you actually disbelieve in the existence of an afterlife as much as you would like to. Rather, I think that you are worried that there is, indeed, an afterlife and therefore there is the possibility of punishment in the next life for the wrongs one commits in this life. Guilty conscience?

But to answer your last question, the reason I say there is an afterlife (or at least one of the reasons) stems from what Jesus said:

“In my Father’s house are many rooms;
if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself,
that where I am you may be also.
And you know the way where I am going."
Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?”
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life;
no one comes to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:2-6, RSV)

Of course, I doubt that you will find this answer satisfactory, seeing as you have stated that the Bible is “mythology” and a “joke.”
But, then again, the topic of this thread is why I believe, and therefore I will make my responses accordingly.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Ok. Tell me why there is an afterlife? As science shows there is none.

And show me contempory records of the son of god. As all we have is word of mouth stories

Word of mouth stories?? We have an entire written record. Anyways there are other sources such as Josephus and Tacitus.

Here are more:
agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Historical%20evidence%20on%20the%20exhistance%20of%20Jesus.htm

 

[Hail_Linus]

Here some mature discussion for you.

Why do you still believe in God? The evidence for evolution is undeniable, humans were created by nothing more than evolution chance, just like apes, tigers and neanderathals.

1. • If the theory of evolution was undeniable then it would not be*** just a theory***.
   • Even if the theory of evolution is true it does not mean species evolved by chance.

   A good explanation for this is neanderathals, they believed in an afterlife (which doesn’t exist) and now humans believe in it, showing us humans are basically just smart neanderathals.

   This is not a good explanation. You are making your own myths about creation. The very thing you are accusing us of doing.
   

   HIGHLY Intelligent scientist Stephen Hawking has shown that God wasn’t needed to create the universe, it came out of chance.

   He may be smart about certain subjects but he is no Einstein. Albert Einstein’s motto was “Religion without science is lame. Science without religion is blind.”
   

   Jesus was a Jew, and Jews then and now dont believed in an afterlife.

   Did you really research this? Because there are many examples in the old testament showing Jews do believe in the afterlife. Here are two:
   
   1. • 1 Samuel 28 shows Saul speaking through a medium to Saul who is in Sheol.
      • Job 26:6 “Sheol is naked before Him, And Destruction has no covering.”
      In the Talmud you find these examples:
      • If a man counts money from his hand into the hand of a woman so as to have the opportunity of gazing at her, even if he can vie in Torah and good deeds with Moses our teacher, he shall not escape the pun¬ishment of Gehenna. (Berakhot 61a).
      • If the person who comes before God has [knowledge of] Torah in hand, but none of Mishnah, God turns his face away from him, whereupon the wardens of Gehenna overpower him like wolves of the steppe, fall upon him, and fling him into its midsts. (Midrash on Proverbs 10:17)
      Here are some Mideval Midrashes from Masekhet Hibbut Ha-Kcver— “Tractate of the Pangs of the Grave”:
      
      1. • Rabbi Eliezer’s pupils asked him, “What judgment is there in the grave?” He replied, “When a man quits this world, the Angel of Death comes to him and sits by his grave, and beating it with his hands, says, Tell me your name.’ ‘Flesh and blood is my name. It is revealed and known to Him who said, and the world was. But I do not know what my name is.’ Then immediately the soul reenters his body. He stands up and is brought to judgment.”
         • Rabbi Joshua ben Levi says, "They bring a chain of iron, half of it burning like fire, half as cold as ice, and they beat him with it. At the first stroke his limbs get separated; at the second, his bones are scattered. Then the ministering angels gather them together, and restoring him, beat him a third time, and demand of him an account and reckoning, and judge him measure for measure.
         • "On ,the second day they judge him in the same manner.
         • “On the third day they judge him further, and they punish his two eyes, his two hands, his two feet and his two ears, his mouth and his tongue. Why are his eyes punished? Because he looked with them upon transgression. Why his ears? Because he heard sinful utterances with them. Why his lips? Because he uttered with them words of foolishness. And why his tongue? Because he has testified falsely with it. Why his two hands? He commit¬ted violence and robbery with them. Why his two legs? Because he hastened with them to transgression.” Rabbi Yehudah says, “Whoever has gone to a married woman shall hang ignomini-ously in Gehinnom; and whoever slanders his neighbor shall be suspended by his tongue.”
         Of course we should mention that even today many Orthodox Jews still pray to the dead for intercession.
         

         Science has shown the brain conrols everything we feel, think and do… there is no need for a soul or spirit, is is all mythology.

         Oh Really. Science has shown there is no need for a soul or spirit. Fascinating! I would love to see the study that determined this.
         

         I would like replies or even if you want to rebutt my arguments, feel free. I am looking for a mature conversation.

         OK buddy. Show me what you got.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Ok. Tell me why there is an afterlife? As science shows there is none.

Because the atheist alternative of a non-existent oblivion renders all life, reason, and existence meaningless.

 

[Evolutionist]

Because the atheist alternative of a non-existent oblivion renders all life, reason, and existence meaningless.

How does that prove there is an afterlife? Our life is no more important than a tigers in the jungle or a fish in the sea.

We came from a common ancestor of the chimpanzee, there was no adam and eve, evolution proves this.

Why does the Old Testament not say dinosaurs were created? Also there was no Jews in Egypt or a Great flood. Archaeology and science has shown us this.

Read Bart Ehrman’s books and you will have a different outlook on the Bible, full of forgeries and myths.

Why would god want to give eternal life to pointless humans, why not neanderathals?

Im sorry but religion is false and to keep people afraid of death happy

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Why would god want to give eternal life to pointless humans, why not neanderathals?

Questions like this are built to attack strawmen and are typical of people who idolize the likes of Dawkins. Answering it would be completely illogical.

How does that prove there is an afterlife? Our life is no more important than a tigers in the jungle or a fish in the sea.

If you think human life is of that little of value, then it’s a wonder that you’re still living.
Heck, it’s a wonder that people around you are still living.

Why does the Old Testament not say dinosaurs were created? Also there was no Jews in Egypt or a Great flood. Archaeology and science has shown us this.

I don’t treat the Bible as a history or a science book. People here have repeated that to you countless times over yet you ignore them.

I’ve met a lot of trolls on these forums you know. You’re starting to smell just like one.

Im sorry but religion is false and to keep people afraid of death happy

And why should death not be feared? Do you not cling to your own life when it’s in danger? Do you not value your sense of self?

Do you not wish for that to go on forever?

I certainly do. The afterlife in fact can give just that and more. It also justifies plenty of reasons for existence.

 

[scoobydoo6v92]

How does that prove there is an afterlife? Our life is no more important than a tigers in the jungle or a fish in the sea.

We came from a common ancestor of the chimpanzee, there was no adam and eve, evolution proves this.

Why does the Old Testament not say dinosaurs were created? Also there was no Jews in Egypt or a Great flood. Archaeology and science has shown us this.

Read Bart Ehrman’s books and you will have a different outlook on the Bible, full of forgeries and myths.

Why would god want to give eternal life to pointless humans, why not neanderathals?

Im sorry but religion is false and to keep people afraid of death happy

I said goodbye to this thread BUT I will say this one last thought. Faith is a gift that anyone can have if they only give God a chance. Your heart will get harder and harder each time you reject him to a point of no return. You must open yourself to him at least and try to listen to him. Science was CREATED by God . The fact that we can fly or sing or hear and see. It is the mere existance of LOVE that proves God’s existance. Not lust but true love agape love. Gravity is another proof of God. The geological amount of time and the solar system is still in perfect timing to support life on earth. What keeps it all going what “engine” what power? You think that this is all by accident? You never replied to my essay if you will, on how most athiests don’t beleive that a huge airplane couldn’t come to being without a designer. How could you beleive that this much more complicated existance can. just crazy I can’t believe people actually believe that we are by chance. Now you may want to believe that YOU!!! came from apes and our life is no more important than a tiger or a snake?? I can’t say the word on here what comes to mind when I read that. There is nothing we can say or do to proive to you to what the truth is. It takes a gift from God an invitation and that my friend you need. I will pray for you that you will see the light. God Bless Scoob.

 

[nfreak141]

As I read your responses, I have come to conclude that you aren’t here to learn at all, but to openly mock us with the facade of wanting an education out of this. What did you want to learn? How “hard headed” we all are?

Enough with your repetitive arguments.

Now you answer me, Mr. or Mrs. I-have-all-the-answers: How does science prove that there is an afterlife? Just because we don’t have the tools necessary to know this does not mean it doesn’t exist. And are you comparing to rational animal to an irrational animal? Your life may be irrational, but speak for yourself, not all of humanity.

We came from a common ancestor of the chimpanzee, there was no adam and eve, evolution proves this.

I’m not rebutting your evolution fact, considering my own beliefs pertaining to Adam and Eve.

Why does the Old Testament not say dinosaurs were created? Also there was no Jews in Egypt or a Great flood. Archaeology and science has shown us this.

No Jews in Egypt? How deeply have you studied this? Have you read the Ipuwar papyrus? It describes the Biblical account of Exodus in the Egyptian view - complete with the death of the Pharaoh’s son, and how the slaves got rich off of Egypt.
And to claim that there was no Great Flood and claim that science proves this is way too bold, almost like you’re putting faith to that fact.

Why would god want to give eternal life to pointless humans, why not neanderathals?

You’re question is of a philosophical nature, not scientific or archaeologic. And whas is with your fixation with neanderthals? And if you believe that we are so “pointless,” whya re you even here? If we are pointless, then that makes neanderthals pointless as well. You know what? Your life is pointless too!

Im sorry but religion is false and to keep people afraid of death happy

Oh now that’s just complete malarky. Have you seen some ancient religions? They begged and pleaded that they be kept away from the grave and the afterlife, which is supposed to be the most miserable thing you can imagine. Death is adn always will be a terrible thing because of the mystery of it.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

How does that prove there is an afterlife? Our life is no more important than a tigers in the jungle or a fish in the sea.

Actually for me, Lost Wanderer’s answer makes sense.

Tell me, Evolutionist, what is the evolutionary advantage for humans to ponder what happens to them after their deaths?

Also, tell me, Evolutionist, in what religious culture did modern science arise?

God love you.

 

[Defender1]

Exactly, why did god not step in and stop these shocking atrocities?

As science progresses, we will learn more and more about why we are here and god will just get further and further away and finally vanish

Common sense and logic will tell you that God made science And uses it as one of his tools for creation .

 

[Defender1]

Ok. Tell me why there is an afterlife? As science shows there is none.

And show me contempory records of the son of god. As all we have is word of mouth stories

WE have historical documents , We have pagan historian confirmation of court records , We have ARcheology proving the bible right after findings on a regular basis . Science has not proved an after life not that there is none . Dont spin here . Answer some of our challenges .